ToM - Taim Vs Logain

[Shadows_Edge]

Just wondering if anyone else thinks that in ToM or perhaps aMoL that it will come down to a fight between Taim and Logain for control of the Black Tower. Taim is a darkfriend or perhaps Demandred in disguise though some will slate me for the Demandred part I'm sure and Logain is seemingly on Rand's side. So to me at least it seems like there will be a battle between them with Taim using the Asha'man loyal to him as darkfriends while on Logains side will be those loyal to him and Rand and the winner having control of the Black Tower. Feel free to tear my theory to pieces if i missed something or am completely wrong lol.

[ravenfier]

Is going to happen with Logain being the winner- the glory to come vision on Min's. The glory being that Logain brings a united force of men to Rands aid in TG.

 

ps Taim is not Dem, RJ has stated that we have not seen his alternate in the flesh, tho I am sure that he is a pawn of Dem's

[Shadows_Edge]

This is exactly what I was thinking thanks for agreeing im happy im not a demented psycho with mad theories lol though im sure others will disagree

[mb]

Not sure if Taim is a Darkfriend since his motives have not been explicitly told.

Though it seems certain that Taim is not Light-sided since he has given orders against Light-sided people (at least Rand).

 

The confrontation with Taim might likely be in Towers of Midnight.

The person doing the confrontation might likely be Logain.

 

Logain's power and glory could be almost anything.  There seems not enough info to be certain.  This confrontation could be one possibility.

Egwene's Dream in Crown of Swords Chapter 10 might relate to this.

 

[Shadows_Edge]

 

Egwene's Dream in Crown of Swords Chapter 10 might relate to this.

 

 

Could you remind me what this dream entails I dont have the books to hand at this minute as I'm in college but I'm curious what it is.

[ravenfier]

Im prety shure that we can see that taim is a darksider from just the statment that he said at, was it book 8? "you know the old saying- Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"- in responce to the bonding request of the AS.

 

The only people that we had seen use that phrase "let the lord of chaos rule" we forsaken or their puppets sooo........

[Samuel]

I highly, highly doubt that this event-Taim and Logain "showdown"-will come to pass. It's just...so bland, no unoriginal...very, very un WOT like, very un Robert Jordan like. I think a twist is coming with the whole Black Tower/Taim/Logain plotline...I seriously doubt this event that seems oh so straightforward and obvious will actually happen. Robert Jordan didn't write the story that way, so we could work out exactly how a plotline would finish.

 

I will be immensely dissapointed if the whole Black Tower plotline actually just boils down to Taim=very bad, Logain=good, then they have a big fight.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim should kick Logains ass, but Logain survives, the Darkfriends are driven out, Taim goes into hiding and finally shows up at a Forsaken meeting

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that Logain needs to kick somebody's ass - either a Forsaken or Taim.  He needs to establish himself as something more than just one more anonymous minion who's interchangable with a dozen others.

 

While a Logain vs Taim matchup would be fairly cliche, he does need something like that if he's going to establish himself as some kind of leader after the Last Battle and give a rationale for it beyond that he once thought he was the Dragon.

 

[Beer Rot]

Elaida's Foretelling "The Black Tower will rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."  Sounds like a fight there to me.

 

I'd like to see Taim and baddies get away, and for them to have a final showdown during TG.

 

I didn't like Mat having to fight Couladin after all that buildup of Couladin v Rand.

[mb]

Egwene's Dream in Crown of Swords Chapter 10 might relate to this.

Could you remind me what this dream entails I dont have the books to hand at this minute as I'm in college but I'm curious what it is.

The Dream begins with Logain stepping on a black rock.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Egwene's Dream in Crown of Swords Chapter 10 might relate to this.

Could you remind me what this dream entails I dont have the books to hand at this minute as I'm in college but I'm curious what it is.

The Dream begins with Logain stepping on a black rock.

 

 

Logain stepping on a black rock over what appears to be Rand's body no less. We know that Shayol Ghul has black rock from the Karaethon cycle: "Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rocks of Shayol Ghul."

 

I think Logain's glory is coming at TG, not because of some showdown with Taim. Rather, I think that Rand will die at TG, perhaps sacrificing himself in such a way that someone else (Logain perhaps) can strike some final blow to the Shadow (resealing the DO's prison or what-have-you). If that happens, I have a feeling that in the future Logain is going to get all the credit for saving the world - hence his glory. Time muddies history, so in a few hundred years everyone will probably think that Logain was the Dragon Reborn. Since he was a false Dragon for a while this would be an easy thing to have history mess up over time, and a common theme through the series has been just how much history and rumor can change from what actually happened.

[magnutz]

I'd enjoy a fight between Logain and Taim! No doubt about that! :)

 

On Taim being darkish and also Demandred in disguise. Sure he's dark, but as stated - not Demandred.

Taim's "darkishness" comes from him being already uber-crazy. He thinks he is the Lord Dragon and wants to get Rand out of the way. SOmehow he's managed to put a hold on his madness. Perhaps by signing a Dark Lord Contract. So, his evil is fueled by madness. I loathe the character Taim. He's like a not gaunt and super-hooked nosed Padan Fain. Top of the World Crazy.

 

All crazy theory of course. But then I also believe Padan Fain is Gollum reborn.

[Mardragon]

I don't think Taim considers himself the Dragon Reborn. Unless by that you mean he considers himself a great as the Dragon Reborn (which is possible, he is that arrogant and of comparable strength in the power). Why? It was stated from early on that false Dragons would stop appearing once the true Dragon had proclaimed himself. To be fair that doesn't mean that a false dragon might not still believe it (believing and complaining not being the same thing after all) but considering the prophesies (Falme, the Stone of Tear, etc) that seems unlikely.  Taim is far from stupid.

 

I think Taim and his faction from the Black Tower, along with the Black Ajah sisters, and possibly even those reds they're bonded with (we don't know those Reds won't find themselves on the other side of the link. Unless you do, I haven't read the last book yet. :) ) will be the new Dread lords of this age, no doubt hoping to become a new 'Chosen'. And I wouldn't be surprised if there is a battle between Logain and Taim either, although whether it will be direct or not is another thing.

[magnutz]

I don't think Taim considers himself the Dragon Reborn. Unless by that you mean he considers himself a great as the Dragon Reborn (which is possible, he is that arrogant and of comparable strength in the power). Why? It was stated from early on that false Dragons would stop appearing once the true Dragon had proclaimed himself. To be fair that doesn't mean that a false dragon might not still believe it (believing and complaining not being the same thing after all) but considering the prophesies (Falme, the Stone of Tear, etc) that seems unlikely.  Taim is far from stupid.

 

I think Taim and his faction from the Black Tower, along with the Black Ajah sisters, and possibly even those reds they're bonded with (we don't know those Reds won't find themselves on the other side of the link. Unless you do, I haven't read the last book yet. :) ) will be the new Dread lords of this age, no doubt hoping to become a new 'Chosen'. And I wouldn't be surprised if there is a battle between Logain and Taim either, although whether it will be direct or not is another thing.

 

I agree with you on the Dread Lords theory but still I like my crazy theory :) Taim went bonkers before meeting Rand, because of the taint or because of the confinement/imprisonment I don't know, and is now used by the Other Side - he could perhaps also be trapped in a compulsion weave doing one of the Forsaken's biddings. Perhaps Demandred is behind that compulsion. Didn't he hate LTT for being better than him, taller and such? He could have transferred those feelings to Taim through the compulsion weave on purpose. This could also explain why we haven't seen Demandred in flesh since he, according to my crazy theory, is doing his stuff through Taim... ;)

 

What about that?! Any takes? ;) (The Dread Lord idea seems a little too obvious, but then again, perhaps not.)

[Samuel]

I don't think Taim considers himself the Dragon Reborn. Unless by that you mean he considers himself a great as the Dragon Reborn (which is possible, he is that arrogant and of comparable strength in the power). Why? It was stated from early on that false Dragons would stop appearing once the true Dragon had proclaimed himself. To be fair that doesn't mean that a false dragon might not still believe it (believing and complaining not being the same thing after all) but considering the prophesies (Falme, the Stone of Tear, etc) that seems unlikely.  Taim is far from stupid.

 

I think Taim and his faction from the Black Tower, along with the Black Ajah sisters, and possibly even those reds they're bonded with (we don't know those Reds won't find themselves on the other side of the link. Unless you do, I haven't read the last book yet. :) ) will be the new Dread lords of this age, no doubt hoping to become a new 'Chosen'. And I wouldn't be surprised if there is a battle between Logain and Taim either, although whether it will be direct or not is another thing.

 

I agree with you on the Dread Lords theory but still I like my crazy theory :) Taim went bonkers before meeting Rand, because of the taint or because of the confinement/imprisonment I don't know, and is now used by the Other Side - he could perhaps also be trapped in a compulsion weave doing one of the Forsaken's biddings. Perhaps Demandred is behind that compulsion. Didn't he hate LTT for being better than him, taller and such? He could have transferred those feelings to Taim through the compulsion weave on purpose. This could also explain why we haven't seen Demandred in flesh since he, according to my crazy theory, is doing his stuff through Taim... ;)

 

What about that?! Any takes? ;) (The Dread Lord idea seems a little too obvious, but then again, perhaps not.)

I like the idea that Taim went crazy BEFORE he met Rand and that he is being manipulated by the Shadow. That's pretty plausible. Ever considered Taim might have sort of "infiltrated" the Shadow? Perhaps not in a Verin way (no matter how much I would like that  :-\ ), but so as a method of gaining power-perhaps he plans to off a few Forsaken. Perhaps he plans to off the Dark One himself, remember Lanfear originally wanted to do this, so we know that some (evil) characters do consider this a course of action. Taim certainly is arrogant enough to consider killing the Dark One, methinks.

 

Ooh, I can't wait until TOM to discover Taim's true story.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Can I just say this. I will be very disappointed if Rand sacrifices himself and Logain gets all the glory. Why are the good guys always handsome and good looking? Is there any character in the book so is a major good guy or good girl who isn't considered good looking? The only one I can think of as not being incredibly handsome is Lan. Doesn't one of the super girls comment on him not being good looking? Anyway that's just her opinion cause Lan has got around it seems if I remember from a Moraine point of view.

 

Bit off topic there.

[magnutz]

I don't think Taim considers himself the Dragon Reborn. Unless by that you mean he considers himself a great as the Dragon Reborn (which is possible, he is that arrogant and of comparable strength in the power). Why? It was stated from early on that false Dragons would stop appearing once the true Dragon had proclaimed himself. To be fair that doesn't mean that a false dragon might not still believe it (believing and complaining not being the same thing after all) but considering the prophesies (Falme, the Stone of Tear, etc) that seems unlikely.  Taim is far from stupid.

 

I think Taim and his faction from the Black Tower, along with the Black Ajah sisters, and possibly even those reds they're bonded with (we don't know those Reds won't find themselves on the other side of the link. Unless you do, I haven't read the last book yet. :) ) will be the new Dread lords of this age, no doubt hoping to become a new 'Chosen'. And I wouldn't be surprised if there is a battle between Logain and Taim either, although whether it will be direct or not is another thing.

 

I agree with you on the Dread Lords theory but still I like my crazy theory :) Taim went bonkers before meeting Rand, because of the taint or because of the confinement/imprisonment I don't know, and is now used by the Other Side - he could perhaps also be trapped in a compulsion weave doing one of the Forsaken's biddings. Perhaps Demandred is behind that compulsion. Didn't he hate LTT for being better than him, taller and such? He could have transferred those feelings to Taim through the compulsion weave on purpose. This could also explain why we haven't seen Demandred in flesh since he, according to my crazy theory, is doing his stuff through Taim... ;)

 

What about that?! Any takes? ;) (The Dread Lord idea seems a little too obvious, but then again, perhaps not.)

I like the idea that Taim went crazy BEFORE he met Rand and that he is being manipulated by the Shadow. That's pretty plausible. Ever considered Taim might have sort of "infiltrated" the Shadow? Perhaps not in a Verin way (no matter how much I would like that  :-\ ), but so as a method of gaining power-perhaps he plans to off a few Forsaken. Perhaps he plans to off the Dark One himself, remember Lanfear originally wanted to do this, so we know that some (evil) characters do consider this a course of action. Taim certainly is arrogant enough to consider killing the Dark One, methinks.

 

Ooh, I can't wait until TOM to discover Taim's true story.

 

Taim being used by Demandred feels like a great plot device. That could explain why LTT inside Rand's head wants him dead. LTT feels Demandred's weave on Taim or something like that.

 

About Taim being crazy before meeting Rand. That sounds like a neat plot device too. He read the signs early on and searched for a way to escape the madness. While doing that he slowly became crazier and crazier. This finally pushed Taim to ask The Great Lord of the Dark to help him. Then Demandred used compulsion on Taim. Perhaps because he feared another strong and handsome LTT-type person. That is bad in his Forsaken eyes. :)

 

Oh well.. time will tell, right?

[imBored]

Or perhaps when he was freed after being captured by the Aes Sedai, they 13x13ed him.

[magnutz]

Or perhaps when he was freed after being captured by the Aes Sedai, they 13x13ed him.

 

Yeah, I like that. And to top that off Demandred compulsifies him. ;)

[mb]

Not sure if Taim was forced to the shadow.

There seems to be these possibilities:

-Taim his own side.

-Taim forced to the shadow.

-Taim a darkfriend.

His actions so far seem to indicate an equal chance of each of those.

 

Taim forced after his escape would be most likely if there was Aes Sedia help in his escape.  It seems doubtful any Aes Sedia helped him escape since there have not been any rumors about such help; Aes Sedia involvement in anything seems to be always rumored about.  Just followers causing the escape (like Rand speculated to Taim) seems most likely.

 

[magnutz]

Not sure if Taim was forced to the shadow.

There seems to be these possibilities:

-Taim his own side.

-Taim forced to the shadow.

-Taim a darkfriend.

His actions so far seem to indicate an equal chance of each of those.

 

Taim forced after his escape would be most likely if there was Aes Sedia help in his escape.  It seems doubtful any Aes Sedia helped him escape since there have not been any rumors about such help; Aes Sedia involvement in anything seems to be always rumored about.  Just followers causing the escape (like Rand speculated to Taim) seems most likely.

 

 

Taim's arrogance in Rand's presence does, to me at least, indicate a very (in his own mind) superior being. The coldness, the restraint is superhuman. Compare Taim with ... the Captain of the Queen's Guard (can't remember his name but he is an evil darkfriend anyway) this guy is more a human ordinary evil guy. Taim is so much more. I expect him to be a Big Dude and would be very satisfied if he turns out to be remote controlled by Demandred. ;)

[Dreamwalker]

Can I just say this. I will be very disappointed if Rand sacrifices himself and Logain gets all the glory. Why are the good guys always handsome and good looking? Is there any character in the book so is a major good guy or good girl who isn't considered good looking? The only one I can think of as not being incredibly handsome is Lan. Doesn't one of the super girls comment on him not being good looking? Anyway that's just her opinion cause Lan has got around it seems if I remember from a Moraine point of view.

 

Bit off topic there.

 

Aren't Perrin and Mat supposed to be fairly average looking? And Verin (and she proved she was majorly hard-core awesome). And don't forget Gaidal, even though he won't show up so much, he is a Hero of the Horn. And Loial (haha)?

 

I will say that as far as female characters are concerned, this does seem to be the case to some extent, since I was only able to come up with one woman, compared to thinking of several guys. But at least in that case being pretty doesn't mean they're good. (cough, Lanfear, cough) We just seem to have an awful lot of good looking leading females on both sides (just like in the movies, I guess. Oh, gender bias.)

[Saguin Venart]

I'd just like to say that I think Logain is actually evil and Taim is good. People assume Taim is evil because we never get chapters from his POV we don't know his motives. The only reason they believe him evil are some quotes and the fact he always has the beginnings of a smile on his lips. In LoC he looks worried when Rand snaps at Lews Therin's voice. Urging Rand to hold onto his sanity if he can.  We only assume Taim is evil because we know nothing of him. I think Jordan intended this, and were in for a big turn around. Beside Jordan himself said the Logain's glory could be as a champion of the shadow. Leading some Asha'man to become dreadlords.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I'd just like to say that I think Logain is actually evil and Taim is good. People assume Taim is evil because we never get chapters from his POV we don't know his motives. The only reason they believe him evil are some quotes and the fact he always has the beginnings of a smile on his lips. In LoC he looks worried when Rand snaps at Lews Therin's voice. Urging Rand to hold onto his sanity if he can.  We only assume Taim is evil because we know nothing of him. I think Jordan intended this, and were in for a big turn around. Beside Jordan himself said the Logain's glory could be as a champion of the shadow. Leading some Asha'man to become dreadlords.

 

Ive always felt we were in for a suprise with Logain but lately from reading on here I'm not so sure. Taim is def a nasty dude. Have you any reasons why you think this? I would love to see them as I hope Logain turns out to be a nasty guy.

 

Can I just say this. I will be very disappointed if Rand sacrifices himself and Logain gets all the glory. Why are the good guys always handsome and good looking? Is there any character in the book so is a major good guy or good girl who isn't considered good looking? The only one I can think of as not being incredibly handsome is Lan. Doesn't one of the super girls comment on him not being good looking? Anyway that's just her opinion cause Lan has got around it seems if I remember from a Moraine point of view.

 

Bit off topic there.

 

Aren't Perrin and Mat supposed to be fairly average looking? And Verin (and she proved she was majorly hard-core awesome). And don't forget Gaidal, even though he won't show up so much, he is a Hero of the Horn. And Loial (haha)?

 

I will say that as far as female characters are concerned, this does seem to be the case to some extent, since I was only able to come up with one woman, compared to thinking of several guys. But at least in that case being pretty doesn't mean they're good. (cough, Lanfear, cough) We just seem to have an awful lot of good looking leading females on both sides (just like in the movies, I guess. Oh, gender bias.)

 

I always thought Mat would be good looking, could be to do with him getting the girls all the time. Perrin and Lan thats two. I admit there are some secondary characters that aren't good looking and some characters are just very old and your looks tend to fade.

Can you give any examples of characters that have got a POV or have significant contributions to the story that are ugly, plain ugly. Not someone thats really old, not human or scarred from battle.