Min's Unfulfilled Visions (Probable Spoilers)

[Sab]

Second time Perrin saves Rand's life: This is a common misquote.  There are two times that Perrin has to be there, or something very bad will happen to Rand.  Very bad.  Very very bad (Min was very insistent on this).  So it's not necessarily a rescue, or even helping Rand directly.  He might give him some advice that stops Rand from making a bad decision, or maybe events will just play out differently based entirely on the fact that Perrin is with Rand instead of somewhere else.

 

Didn't it say it would also be at the hands of people who could channel?  So the first was the rescue from the kidnapping.  I think the other will involve the 13 Aes Sedai with the borderlanders or maybe a DF wise one will reveal herself.  Distance doesn't matter anymore since he has the Asha'man with him.  But seriously how much worse can things get for Rand that if Perrin isn't there?  He already lost a hand, gone nearly blind and nearly killed Min.

[yoniy0]

Beldeine -- probably not a BA because Egwene would have recognized the name immediately since Beldeine was her Keeper in the Arches test, and it's unlikely that another of Rand's followers is not only BA but one that Verin didn't find. I say she's gonna get turned -- either that or Verin might have Compelled Beldeine to do something that will have implications in the near future.

I could have sworn that I posted on this very thread about this. If not, I don't know where it was (I tried to search, and got a database error). Anyways, I suggest (and I believe I'm not the only one to think so) that she'll arrive at the Tower soon, and will meet one of the Bloodknives left there.

[Random Man]

Beldeine -- probably not a BA because Egwene would have recognized the name immediately since Beldeine was her Keeper in the Arches test, and it's unlikely that another of Rand's followers is not only BA but one that Verin didn't find. I say she's gonna get turned -- either that or Verin might have Compelled Beldeine to do something that will have implications in the near future.

I could have sworn that I posted on this very thread about this. If not, I don't know where it was (I tried to search, and got a database error). Anyways, I suggest (and I believe I'm not the only one to think so) that she'll arrive at the Tower soon, and will meet one of the Bloodknives left there.

 

Yeesh, I didn't even think about the Bloodknives as a possibility. That makes a lot more sense. Thanks. I'm sure I missed whatever thread it was in that was first discussed, but was just surprised because it's usually pretty easy to find discussion on Min's viewings even if you're not paying attention to the forums for a month or so.

[bronnt]

I had some thoughts about this while reading other threads, and decided to dust this one off a bit.

 

First, the big one that everyone has been looking forward to, the second time that Perrin will "have to be there," in order to save Rand.  I really just want to make a case for what I think this will NOT be, so let me first outline the entire prophecy.  I'm quoting this directly off of EWoT:

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 

That's Min speaking her vision to Rand concerning his need for Perrin.  The first is obviously *Dumai's Wells (see footnote). Perrin can't inadvertently have fulfilled the second half of that because almost immediately upon returning from Dumai's Wells, Perrin was sent off on an errand.  It's been a ridiculously long errand-literally half the series at this point-but we're all still waiting to see just how Perrin is going to affect things.  Personally, I thought we were going to get an answer when Cadsuane was searching for Perrin in tGS, but it turns out she was merely looking for Tam.

 

This often gets tied in with another vision of Min's due to being somewhat related and occurring in proximity in the story.  That vision Min has is that Aes Sedai will hurt Rand, and it might be more than once.  We see a very poignant example of this in Dumai's Wells, followed by the rescue from Perrin.  Many think that the next time is that the sisters with the Borderland army are going to trap Rand, and things will go horribly wrong, and that is where he'll need Perrin.  Either the 13 sisters, who have remained unseen until now, are all Black, or they're all misguided and will harm him in the same way as the earlier group of Aes Sedai.

 

While the entire Borderland army plotline is shrouded with mystery and very suspect, I don't think this is how Perrin's second "being there" vision will be fulfilled.  There's quite a few issues.  Firstly, I think the "Aes Sedai will harm you" vision is being very misinterpreted.  Here's that one, in full.

 

And there was something else, something new, an aura of yellow and brown and purple that made her stomach clench. "Aes Sedai are going to hurt you. Women who can channel, anyway. It was all confused. I'm not sure about the Aes Sedai part. But it might happen more than once. I think that's why it seemed all scrambled."

 

Well, women who can channel will hurt Rand.  That's definitely already happened more than once.  Dumai's Wells, obviously.  Then Semirhage burns his hand off.  Then Semi and Elza put a Domination band on him.  You could make the case that Cadsuane hurt him again, when she tried to manipulate Tam.  Personally, I think this one might already be fulfilled, or mostly fulfilled.  There's nothing in there that specifically points at a group of Aes Sedai harming him again specifically in the way they did at Dumai's Wells again.  More importantly, despite the fact that the first instance of Aes Sedai hurting Rand and his first need of Perrin were connected, there's no reason to think that they'll be connected once again.  These are two separate visions, and neither one says anything about the other.

 

Additionally, I think that RJ is a better story-teller than to just recycle a previous event and make another sequence out of it.  I don't think that a group of women are going to capture and shield Rand, again, and Perrin is going to bring an army again, and ride into battle against a massive army again, to rescue Rand from a group of Aes Sedai who again try to do something insidious with him.  It's just not interesting to re-tell the same story involving many of the same characters, separated only by time. Besides, rescuing Rand from a large Borderland army and a band of channelers doesn't seem like something that requires Perrin.  In fact, he wouldn't even be useful.  Rand now has his own coterie of channelers that follow him around; before Dumai's Wells, this was more of an issue since he didn't have a private army of male channelers (to his knowledge) that could be easily summoned.  13 Aes Sedai against just the group of channlers around Rand-maybe even just Nynaeve and Cadsuane, with their respective an'greals-would not stand a chance.  Perrin's only role would be to stand back and say "Well, that was impressive.  Good job everybody."  He's not needed for such a task.

 

*This is a huge aside, but does Dumai's Wells really count as the first time Perrin needed to be there?  I mean, clearly RJ meant for it to, but in the end it's really weak because it was the arrival of a huge host of Asha'Man that solved the whole debacle.  Did Perrin's being there somehow cause their arrival?  It seems unlikely, but we don't really know how they figured out to show up at Dumai's Wells to begin with.  In fact, Perrin seems to have been more hindrance than anything else, since he put more of Rand's people in harm's way and didn't really have a chance at winning through to Rand.  Without his interference, there was nothing to keep the Asha'Man from just making a Gateway and pulling Rand out, but instead they had to fight in order to rescue Perrin's army.  That in turn led to the Shaido being scattered across heaven and earth and a whole host of other problems.

[Leonem]

- Vision of Egwene being tied to Galad ; Egwene had a dream about a golden Hawk reaching

out and touching her and she knew she was linked, I'm sure this applies to Galad as a Warder & I have

a suspision he is a direct decendant of Hawkwing and the heir to Hawkwings armies.....

 

Egwene's Dream about the golden hawk being tied to her specifically says it is a female hawk (ACoS Ch. 10) so it can't be related to the Egwene-Galad viewing. For that Dream most people have been leaning more toward it being either Berelain or a Seanchan woman (probably the Seanchan since this could tie with her other Dreams about a Seanchan woman)

 

That blows that theory...

 

There's another one of Min's viewings that would fit nicely: From LoC, Chapter 50: Berelain - "Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels." (quote from http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/viewings.html). I used to expect Berelain would get involved with one of the gai'shain saved from Malden, but what if it's Galad? That could pin both Berelain and Galad to Egwene.

[azrael.1289]

I'm quoting this directly off of EWoT:

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

A few very very bad things have already happened to Rand in Perrin's absence. Maybe Min's viewing has already come to pass. Maybe Perrin's presence would have prevented some of the bad things that's happened to Rand, but since he was absent, they actually happened.

[bronnt]

I'm quoting this directly off of EWoT:

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

A few very very bad things have already happened to Rand in Perrin's absence. Maybe Min's viewing has already come to pass. Maybe Perrin's presence would have prevented some of the bad things that's happened to Rand, but since he was absent, they actually happened.

 

It's possible, but there's little point in having used the foreshadowing from a narrative standpoint without having it culminate in some way that's noticeable.  We're almost certainly going to see this culminate in Perrin being there for Rand.  It's tough to say just how Perrin having been there would have prevented having his arm blown off (Perrin can't channel) or Semirhage putting the sad bracelets on him.  I just don't think we'll see another rescue attempt led by Perrin because that's poor storytelling and, again, I don't see how he'd be particularly useful.  Rand has his own cadre of competent channelers following him now.

 

My idea is that something happens where Rand gets trapped in T'A'R, perhaps similar to Faile, and it requires Perrin helping him in the wolf dream.  That would be something where Perrin would be necessary, and it would require Perrin to once again face the Wolf Dream and grow more adept in it.  Then again, that's rather repetitive also from a story standpoing; at least it highlights a way Perrin would actually prove adept.

[FarShainMael]

I'm not sure if this has come up in this thread already, but I'm puzzled about a Viewing of Sheriam in tFoH Ch 26:

 

'Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant.'

 

in Min's viewings, colour seems to be important - the yellow/brown/purple hues that 'made her stomach clench' are the colours of bruises. This viewing of Sheriam seems to indicate something good. Only trouble is, Sheriam has been beheaded as a DF..

 

[Trib4l]

Take special note of the colors mentioned when Sheriam gets shortened. Blue, gold, silver.

[FarShainMael]

I did, but I missed their significance!

Hang on, checking..

 

Right, got it:

blue dress

golden sunlight (shades of VoG)

silvery axe

 

aaargh. I should have realised. BttDB.

 

so yes it's good, but good for the Forces of the Light, not for S herself.

 

Hmm. Now about Logain, and that aura of blue and gold that shouts of glory to come..

 

[csarmi]

I would disagree with that, she should have been kept alive and bound by the oath rod (it's a binder for criminals afterall) or interrogated better, at least.

[MikeRiley]

Egwene knows the oath rod can be used to remove oaths. She knows stilling can be Healed. She's in the middle of a war and can't afford to baby sit anybody. A simple execution is best and fitting Sheriam's crime. Sheriam couldn't be brought with them, she couldn't be left behind.

[bronnt]

Egwene knows the oath rod can be used to remove oaths. She knows stilling can be Healed. She's in the middle of a war and can't afford to baby sit anybody. A simple execution is best and fitting Sheriam's crime. Sheriam couldn't be brought with them, she couldn't be left behind.

 

Doesn't it make sense to keep one of the BA alive, someone highly placed?  That way you wouldn't have any plots they'd put in place coming back to bite you in the ass later.  I mean, killing off 70ish of them (I don't really remember the numbers) isn't going to be spoiled if you keep one alive to interrogate.  Just grab the oath rod, and any time you ask her questions, ask her to reswear the Oaths again, or at least the one to tell the truth.

 

Egwene is concerned that her error with Moghedien is going to be repeated, but even someone fairly strong in the AS hierarchy like Sheriam is a miniscule concern compared to Mogehedien.  Keeping them all alive to try to interrogate them separately would have been foolish, since the possibility of a rescue and revolt would have been a great risk.  But considering that slightly more than half the Black Ajah did escape, one more hanging around seems really unimportant.  And if you'd kept Sheriam around, you might have had a chance to learn what the escaped portion is planning, maybe even where they're hiding, depending on what Sheriam knows.  The mistake is only looking more and more foolish in hindsight.

 

Someone's almost certain to point out just how poorly things have turned out for the Light whenever they have a Black prisoner (and most specifically BA).  I mean, Isam killed Joiya and Amico, Careane killed Adeleas and Ispan, and Daigian is killed when Semirhage is rescued.  Still, if the Black is that big a threat, the greater reason to attempt to learn their plans.  The Amyrlin, asleep in her own room, is an easier target than a guarded prisoner now that Traveling is widely known.  They shouldn't let fear rule their actions.

[DemandredFO]

I really hate to defend Egwene but look at what the hunters went through to break Talene.  It really depends on Egwene because sometimes she abides by the rules and sometimes she doesn't.