Is the Dark One insane?

[delathi]

 

 

Ishamael : Lead the forces of the Dark One and ended up losing and the Bore was sealed with him half trapped

Ba'alzamon : Tried to turn Rand at the Eye of the World, received ass kicking

Ba'alzamon : Battled Rand in the sky above Falme, stabbed through the heart

Ba'alzamon : Attacked Rand in the Stone, received yet another ass kicking and killed

Moridin : Named Nae'blis, sends minions to stop Rand from cleansing Saidin, they receive an ass kicking.

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

So, with Ishy such a complete and repeating failure, why does the Dark One keep going back to him? Is the Dark One insane, or just stupid?

 

[Durinax]

 

 

Ishamael : Lead the forces of the Dark One and ended up losing and the Bore was sealed with him half trapped

Ba'alzamon : Tried to turn Rand at the Eye of the World, received ass kicking

Ba'alzamon : Battled Rand in the sky above Falme, stabbed through the heart

Ba'alzamon : Attacked Rand in the Stone, received yet another ass kicking and killed

Moridin : Named Nae'blis, sends minions to stop Rand from cleansing Saidin, they receive an ass kicking.

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

So, with Ishy such a complete and repeating failure, why does the Dark One keep going back to him? Is the Dark One insane, or just stupid?

 

those arent the same actions each time. Each time his actions change, in Falm he was trying to kill Rand, and almost succeeded, in the Stone ha failed miserably, and cleansing Saidin was completely different. . .

[Wingendosering]

Who else does he have to turn to?  Ishamael is the only Chosen crazy enough to use the True Power.  By doing so, Ishy/Moridin has made himself addicted to the DO himself.  All the others could try to repent.  All the others have ulterior motives.

 

Ishy does not.  He has no choice but to ensure the DO and by association, the True Power last forever.  Who could he trust more than that?

 

Besides, every Forsaken has failed miserably time and time again.

 

Belthamel - Got completely destroyed by a tree-human thing.  Infiltrates Egwene's rebel camp, gets caught, kills a handful of Aes Sedai and flees with his tail between his legs.

 

Aginor - Burns himself out or dies to Rand before he even knows how to channel (exactly how he died is unsure, but either way is pathetic for a Forsaken).  Then fails to kill Rand as Dashiva and dies to a fellow darkfriend at the cleansing of the source.  Also created Trollocs and Gholam, way back when...both turned out badly.

 

Graednal - Honestly...throughout the entire series she's pretty quiet.  She failed in her coup with Sammael, Lanfear and Rahvin.

 

Rahvin - Failed miserably at securing his kingdom and messed up the plan to kill Rand created by Lanfear, Graendal and Sammael.

 

Sammael - Dies to Mashadar...because he failed to look up...

 

Moghedien - Got herself captured, accomplished little, and gave away secrets from the Age of Legends.  Now a soul-trapped lackey.

 

Lanfear - Dies to a measly little present-day Aes Sedai and got herself stilled.  Allowed her hatred of Lews Therin and her jealousy to cloud her judgement.

 

Mesaana - Has been doing good work, but failed to show up for the ccleansing of Saidin.  HThe status of her dreadlords is currently unknown.

 

And so on...

[mb]

The Dark One might be insane.

 

Though not all forms of insanity are necessarily bad.

 

 

Lanfear - Dies to a measly little present-day Aes Sedai and got herself stilled.

Death and stilling is currently just speculation.

So far there is not yet proof of what happened to her.

 

Belthamel - gets caught

That seems doubtful.

 

 

Except for the Forsaken that were balefired, there is a chance for them to make up for their failures.

Any form of failures could produce a victory later on.  I posted something similar to that in a past thread.

 

[Wingendosering]

Sorry!  I thought Gathering Storm had been around long enough for spoilers to get posted.  My bad.  I edited the offending sentences.

[mb]

Removed the spoilers from my post.

 

[Agitel]

Ishamael is the only Chosen who's actually loyal to the Dark One. All of the others are in it for personal gain. Ishamael believes in what the Dark One is doing, not to mention his mind pre-Moridin was pretty much corrupted by using too much of the True Power anyway.

 

Aside from that, Rand had drawn enormously from the Eye of the World in their first confrontation, and was using Callandor in their third. Also, Rand is ta'veren. I think anyone who tries to attack Rand in person is going to have to deal with the Wheel's influence as well. That's why the DO pushed the chaos tactic instead.

 

And you're overlooking Ishamael's accomplishments. Aside from sincerely believing in the Dark One's cause, he remained loyal to the DO even at the end. Keep in mind that the Shadow was WINNING the War of Power. The strike at Shayol Ghul was a last ditch surprise attack. Ishamael also kept the friends of the dark going for 3000 years, helped establish and organize the Black Ajah, led the Trolloc Wars, poisoned Artur Hawkwing's mind, to name a few.

[alligator]

The Dark One, whatever he/she/it may actually be, is outside the range of human experience. Therefore we cannot apply human concepts to the Dark One in an attempt to explain his/her/its actions. Is the Dark One insane? Well, probably. I mean he is trying to destroy creation. But I don't think you can judge him using human standards.  :)

 

[Mr Ares]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

That's a very poor definition of insanity. Never hear of perseverance? Persistance? If at first you don't succeed, try, try again? Furthermore, as already pointed out, he is doing different things each time. So where's the insanity?

 

Is the Dark One insane? Well, probably. I mean he is trying to destroy creation.

What's so insane about trying to destroy creation? I mean, who here hasn't tried that at some point?

[Luckers]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

That's a Faith quote, isn't it!

[Owayn The Traveller]

he/she/it's as mad as a box of frogs!

[OptimusPrime]

 

 

Ishamael : Lead the forces of the Dark One and ended up losing and the Bore was sealed with him half trapped

Ba'alzamon : Tried to turn Rand at the Eye of the World, received ass kicking

Ba'alzamon : Battled Rand in the sky above Falme, stabbed through the heart

Ba'alzamon : Attacked Rand in the Stone, received yet another ass kicking and killed

Moridin : Named Nae'blis, sends minions to stop Rand from cleansing Saidin, they receive an ass kicking.

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

So, with Ishy such a complete and repeating failure, why does the Dark One keep going back to him? Is the Dark One insane, or just stupid?

 

 

Small failures.

 

As a timeless being, he is about as far from human as is possible. He doesnt think like a human. The Dark One does not benefit from Rands death in any way because if Rand dies, he will just be born again. As a timeless being, the Dark One doesnt feel bad about having longwinded, gradual plans, and those plans are what Ishamael excels in.

 

The Dark One, ultimately, broke the Aes Sedai when he tainted saidin. Ishamael rubs his hands together and creates an entire faction inside the White Tower that is loyal to the Dark. So when the Aes Sedai think they are rebuilding from what the Dark One has done, they are also expanding on what Ishamael has done. Victory for Ishamael.

 

Ishamael corrupted prophecies in order to stop Rand from getting the Seanchan on side. For one thing, actually doing that will have been very difficult, and for another, doing it against the Seanchan is a big move, considering the weight they hold now. Victory for Ishamael.

 

Artur Hawkwing was the strongest Ta'veren for a looooong time. Ishamael made him wage war on Aes Sedai. Ishamael also made him refuse Healing on his deathbed, and because of that his entire Empire collapsed because his kids bickered over the nations. Victory for Ishamael.

 

Ishamael is the only Forsaken that shows a true level of luoyalty to the Dark One, and he has made plans that are bigger by many of the others moves. Asmodean made a good attempt in giving Couladin the dragons to stop Rand from getting the Aiel, but the prophecies themselves made Rand apparant because he came with the dawn. Ishamael used the time he was unbound wisely.

 

The Dark Ones faith in Ishamael is justified, Id say.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Stopping Hawkwing from getting treatment cant be considered a triumph as he would of died anyway and his kids would of still bickered over his empire. That's what happens to empires built in a quick time by one man. Examples would be Alexander and his Macedonian Empire and Attila and his. Both fairly massive empires built in one lifetime and when the forceful, charismatic leader dies it falls to bits.

So Ishy doesn't really deserve the dues there but in the others yes he has done well.

[delathi]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

That's a Faith quote, isn't it!

 

It's Einstein actually.

[Agitel]

Stopping Hawkwing from getting treatment cant be considered a triumph as he would of died anyway and his kids would of still bickered over his empire. That's what happens to empires built in a quick time by one man. Examples would be Alexander and his Macedonian Empire and Attila and his. Both fairly massive empires built in one lifetime and when the forceful, charismatic leader dies it falls to bits.

So Ishy doesn't really deserve the dues there but in the others yes he has done well.

 

If Hawkwing had managed to successfully secure the throne for his heir he would have been good. It is possible.

[OptimusPrime]

Stopping Hawkwing from getting treatment cant be considered a triumph as he would of died anyway and his kids would of still bickered over his empire. That's what happens to empires built in a quick time by one man. Examples would be Alexander and his Macedonian Empire and Attila and his. Both fairly massive empires built in one lifetime and when the forceful, charismatic leader dies it falls to bits.

So Ishy doesn't really deserve the dues there but in the others yes he has done well.

 

Well, true, but RJ clearly let our myths influence his story, so Alexanders eimpire dying actually had Ishamael behind it. Ishamael pulled down one of the strongest Ta'verens ever. However you look at it, that is a big thing.

[perrin51]

The question to ask is, "Is the paradox a thing of the DO, the Creator or the Wheel?" If Ishy didn't infect Hawkwing with his suspicions and influence him to send Luthair across the AO, then what would the situation be in Randland. Would there have been a united continent with a presumed well trained army and government to deal with the crises that we see at the current time.  Perhaps the world needed to be in the current depopulated, decentralized and inept state for Rand to accomplish what needs to be done. Rand muses on this when he finally makes some connection as to how his parents were destined to meet and make him.

 

On another topic. I don’t believe that the Seanchan prophecies are corrupted at all. They do not refer to the Karaethon Cycle for their proficies. Just as the Aeil, Sea Folk, Sharans, and the Amayar had theirs. Why does everyone assume that they will use the Karaethon Cycle? Yes, Luthair probably brought them with him. However, the people in Seanchan did live isolated for about 2000 years, before his arrival. Now the whole Seanchan culture is an amalgam of what was there in the varied countries there and what Luthair brought. So again, why are their prophecies corrupted and all the others are sacrosanct?

 

To sum up, what agency is tweaking things to arrive at the Last Battle. If it is the DO, he/she/it, will try to craft things to most benefit the DO. Insane or not. Or is it the Creator doing the same? Insane or not. Or is this the Wheel trying to balance out all of the outside interference.  Just some random thoughts. Thanks!!

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Employee of the age goes to the man with a few names

[Caveman_Nick]

Isn't this as simple as Ishy being tied to the turning of the wheel in the same way Rand is, destined to be spun out again and again?  If he is fated to be the DO's champion as he claims, then the DO probably knows this.  If he does away with his own champion (ie. Ishy dies the final death), then he is denying himself the very being that was built to battle Rand.

 

All Ishy has to do is win once during eternity.  Rand has to win every time.  Being immortal and having been through this a few times, I think the DO understands the game and is playing it as he can.

[Vicious Circle]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

That's a Faith quote, isn't it!

 

It's Einstein actually.

 

I thought it was from a Sandra Bullock movie! ::)