A Clue from LTT about the Last Battle?

[OptimusPrime]

No, it just showed how the pattern is weaved around a Tav'eren. Remember that Tav'eren are also hold more strictly by the pattern. Nothing rand is doing is outside of what the pattern allows him. Saying that rand can bend the pattern in a way it does not allow and "change" the weaving goes against everything we know of Tav'eren as a corrective mechanism of the wheel.

 

But Rand isnt just a Ta'veren, is he? Look.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,

for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

 

Several times in TGS, when Rand is in a bad mood, the dark aura surrounds him, and then styuff begins to rot. That is not normal Ta'veren work, nor is it because he is a True Power user, because this happens at times when he doesnt channel the True Power. This is Rands will affecting the Pattern, whether he means it to or not. Rand intimidated a name out of a boy whose mind had been destroyed. That is impossible, yet it happened. The reason? It is not Ta'veren, it is Rands will affecting the Pattern. We see nothing of this from Mat or Perrin, and at best even Hawkwings Ta'veren affects are supposedly comparible to Mats, not Rands. "Who turns the Wheel of Time may learn the truth too late." We saw that Rand had learned in TGS-he knows there is a connection between his will and the Pattern, you can tell by his encounter with Tuon. He demanded a treaty, and right at that time, when Rand was concentrating his will on her, she found it very hard to not say yes. She says no, he stops glaring at her, and right there and then she is released from whatever force (Rands will) gripped her.

 

I think more can be put down to the will of the Dragon than most people realise.

 

Everything is going on the course the pattern wants. Even when Rand believe's he's altering the pattern, he's just following the path

 

Does that mean that he was supposed to become so dark that he was about to use the CK to destroy everything?

 

Creating a "void" in the pattern would be doing the DO's work for him and give him an access point into the world like he wants. the whole point of this is to seal the bore in a way that it's not a patch, but is no longer a weak point in the pattern.

 

The Void I imagined as a space where threads are pushed away. Like the opposite of Ta'veren. If the Dark One was trapped in a Void inside the Pattern it would mean he was seperate from the rest of the world, yet within it and thus unable to harm the Pattern as he does now.

[Nightstrike]

Noone can trap the Creator or the Dark One. Not anywhere. They are gods.

 

Trying to "trap" either one would end badly, but not for them. It would be bad for anyone who tried. All the channelers in the Wheel would be useless against the Dark One. Fain is a speck of dust compared to the DO. A crazy speck of dust.

 

Only thing to hope for is that the Wheel keeps turning (=that the Dark One never breaks through into the Wheel).

 

 

[Calderis]

Does that mean that he was supposed to become so dark that he was about to use the CK to destroy everything?

 

Considering that the situation on dragonmount in Veins of gold was the fulfillment of one of the prophecies. Yes. It does.

[OptimusPrime]

Does that mean that he was supposed to become so dark that he was about to use the CK to destroy everything?

 

Considering that the situation on dragonmount in Veins of gold was the fulfillment of one of the prophecies. Yes. It does.

 

Meh. I dont think it works like that. I think the Pattern has a course, Rand was straying from it, the Pattern reacts. Prophecies show us what WILL happen, not necessarily what the Pattern wants to happen. Yes, the Patterns goal will come about one way or another, unless the unlikely event occurs where the Dragon is actually loyal to the Dark One. Yes, Rand was supposed to remember love, but he wasnt supposed to come so close to thinking like Ishamael that he wouldnt have even needed the CK at all.

 

Noone can trap the Creator or the Dark One. Not anywhere. They are gods

 

What did Lews Therin do then? He repaired the prison which was supposedly made by the Creator at the beginning of time, which according to the first paragraph of each book does not exist. The Dragon can trap the Dark One, its happened with every turning of the Wheel.

[Nightstrike]

Noone can trap the Creator or the Dark One. Not anywhere. They are gods

What did Lews Therin do then? He repaired the prison which was supposedly made by the Creator at the beginning of time, which according to the first paragraph of each book does not exist. The Dragon can trap the Dark One, its happened with every turning of the Wheel.

He didn't "repair the prison" (that isn't a prison). He patched up the bore. Which resulted in saidin becoming tainted for 3 000 years. If saidar had been used, saidar would have been tainted as well. The Dragon can not trap the Dark One. It's never happened, and it will never happen. The Dragon is no god. He is just a human being.

[OptimusPrime]

Tell me what happened at the beginning then, and actually give a real answer rather than something that avoids it. What exactly happened with Lews Therin then? He touched the Dark One with Saidin, the end results were the Dark One being imprisoned again AND saidin being tainted. You know all this.

 

You're just arguing for the sake of it Nightstrike, not a single one of your points is valid the way you put it.

[Nightstrike]

What exactly happened with Lews Therin then? He touched the Dark One with Saidin, the end results were the Dark One being imprisoned again AND saidin being tainted. You know all this.

The Dark One was never "free". If he had been released "out of the Bore", then there wouldn't have been any more Wheel. People inside the Wheel say it's a prison, but it probably isn't a prison to the Dark One. He is a god. He is only shut out of the Wheel. Lews Therin never imprisoned the Dark One. All the channelers in the Wheel aren't strong enough for that.

 

Lews Therin patched up the Bore, but that's it. Saidin was tainted for 3 000 years as a direct result of that.

[Glowbal]

What exactly happened with Lews Therin then? He touched the Dark One with Saidin, the end results were the Dark One being imprisoned again AND saidin being tainted. You know all this.

The Dark One was never "free". If he had been released "out of the Bore", then there wouldn't have been any more Wheel. People inside the Wheel say it's a prison, but it probably isn't a prison to the Dark One. He is a god. He is only shut out of the Wheel. Lews Therin never imprisoned the Dark One. All the channelers in the Wheel aren't strong enough for that.

 

Lews Therin patched up the Bore, but that's it. Saidin was tainted for 3 000 years as a direct result of that.

 

The DO wasn't entirely free. He 'could reach out his hand' and touch the world, since the bore was open. But I get what you mean. Though, the books say the Creator inprisoned the DO. So that must be a prison. The Dragon is on the world, to hold the DO from getting out of this prison, and touch the world. And this prison happens to be outside the pattern.

 

 

[Coraxian]

I assume he'd use the True Power to touch him, saidin and saidar to repair, not seal, the bore.  That way saidin and saidar stay safe and we get back to the beginning.

 

Of course, one could argue that since there are seven ages per turning of the wheel, that it doesn't need to mean that the DO's position will be the same as prior to the making of the bore.  There are more ages to come where they can repair the prison.  Then again, since he chose THIS age to write about, I assume it'll be this age where they'll fix it.

 

Nevertheless, Fain is a bit of a Checkov's gun when talking about the DO.  He'll end up in the mix. Possibly replacing the DO or Ishy.  I guess it's all RAFO.

[Calderis]

Swear this is like the 4th thread I've said this in. TP is the essence of the dark one. using it in closing the bore would be like shoving a board in the door before you try and slam it.

 

The "buffer" has to be something to do with Fain. The dual wound in rand's side is a perfect example of how the DO and Fain's powers can be used to hold each other off while the bore is sealed.

[Aquarius]

The "buffer" has to be something to do with Fain. The dual wound in rand's side is a perfect example of how the DO and Fain's powers can be used to hold each other off while the bore is sealed.

Or more precisely, the special healing Flinn performed on Rand is the perfect example of how the DO's and Fain's powers can be used to hold each other off...

From the description Flinn gives to Samitsu (I think it's her that was with Cadsuane in Riatin's encampment), the two wounds were pulsing against each other after Samitsu's healing, and Finn sort of isolated them together.

[Agitel]

Noone can trap the Creator or the Dark One. Not anywhere. They are gods

What did Lews Therin do then? He repaired the prison which was supposedly made by the Creator at the beginning of time, which according to the first paragraph of each book does not exist. The Dragon can trap the Dark One, its happened with every turning of the Wheel.

He didn't "repair the prison" (that isn't a prison). He patched up the bore. Which resulted in saidin becoming tainted for 3 000 years. If saidar had been used, saidar would have been tainted as well. The Dragon can not trap the Dark One. It's never happened, and it will never happen. The Dragon is no god. He is just a human being.

 

We can't say that for sure. LTT never got to implement his real plan. The seals he laid were not the seals he wanted to lay. Perhaps with saidar included the Bore could have been healed. But we don't know that one way or the other. Personally, I feel that they were prepared for some kind of backlash from the Dark One, and I'm pretty sure that Callandor's purpose was to prevent it. Without saidar, it couldn't be used properly.

[rcfleming4]

No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

So does that mean balefire isn't nearly as dangerous as we are led to believe? That using a lot of balefire won't unravel the pattern?

[OptimusPrime]

That is the balefire affecting the Pattern, not the person.

[rubbernilly]

That is the balefire affecting the Pattern, not the person.

 

Well, that is splitting hairs, isn't it?

 

No, it's even less than that... you're talking about a semantic difference.

 

The balefire is affecting the pattern, but it is a tool in the hands of the wielder. Balefire has no mind of its own.

 

The will that is destroying the pattern (via the tool of balefire) is a human one... within the Wheel.

[OptimusPrime]

If someone is stabbed and die. If balefire kills them, it doesnt just kill them, it changes their affect on the Pattern. That isnt splitting hairs in the slightest, thats just the way it is. The balefirer did nothing to the Pattern; they just killed them. The balefire does the Pattern bit by itself.  

 

Splitting hairs would be to say balefire shouldnt be able to kill anyone ever because they never actually stood where they were when balefired at the time it hit them.

 

Heres a better example of hairsplitting.

 

No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

So does that mean balefire isn't nearly as dangerous as we are led to believe? That using a lot of balefire won't unravel the pattern?

 

To use RJs words against him like that after reading so far into the series and seeing how balefire works, after it becoming clear that balefire can depopulate cities by accident, THAT is splitting hairs.

[rcfleming4]

I see what you mean, but I didn't mean to split hairs.

 

I was just wondering if what the people in the WOT universe think about balefire is partially incorrect. That no matter how much damage is done to the Pattern through the use of balefire, the Pattern will eventually recover.

 

It just seems saying no one inside the Pattern can destroy it but at the same time stating that if they use to much balefire the pattern will unravel is contradictory to me. You have one thread using so much balefire that it's causing so much destruction to the Pattern that it starts to fall apart . . . yet that thread didn't cause the problem? The balefire did?

 

Of course maybe what's meant is that something like the Dark One can simply reach out and tear apart the Pattern without using any 'artificial' tools once he's freed. While a thread within the Pattern needs those tools otherwise they can't do any lasting harm.

 

I don't know  :-\

[Axon]

I would like to see LTT again - I was hoping for a Rand/LTT team-up at Tarmon Gai'don, but I suppose not. Nonetheless, I assume we can expect Rand's statements - catalyzed by LLT - about "doing things the right way this time" to ring true at the last battle.

[Shard]

I see what you mean, but I didn't mean to split hairs.

 

I was just wondering if what the people in the WOT universe think about balefire is partially incorrect. That no matter how much damage is done to the Pattern through the use of balefire, the Pattern will eventually recover.

 

It just seems saying no one inside the Pattern can destroy it but at the same time stating that if they use to much balefire the pattern will unravel is contradictory to me. You have one thread using so much balefire that it's causing so much destruction to the Pattern that it starts to fall apart . . . yet that thread didn't cause the problem? The balefire did?

 

Of course maybe what's meant is that something like the Dark One can simply reach out and tear apart the Pattern without using any 'artificial' tools once he's freed. While a thread within the Pattern needs those tools otherwise they can't do any lasting harm.

 

I don't know  :-\

 

Bradon answered this when questioned about balefiring someone back a year or so in the pattern. Brandon said that the Pattern would start unraveling on a tremendous level if someone was burned that far back and that much BF was used.

[seasnake]

Padan Fain is the link, the thing that has to touch the Dark One but can be touched by the One Power.  He's gollum, the obsessive guy who is evil who will ultimately finish the Dark Lord.  Padan Fain is the key here, he's got to bridge the gap.

[rubbernilly]

If someone is stabbed and die. If balefire kills them, it doesnt just kill them, it changes their affect on the Pattern. That isnt splitting hairs in the slightest, thats just the way it is. The balefirer did nothing to the Pattern; they just killed them. The balefire does the Pattern bit by itself.

 

So Cadsuane should slap the balefire in the face and tell it not to weave itself anymore. ::)  

 

Heres a better example of hairsplitting.

 

No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

So does that mean balefire isn't nearly as dangerous as we are led to believe? That using a lot of balefire won't unravel the pattern?

 

To use RJs words against him like that after reading so far into the series and seeing how balefire works, after it becoming clear that balefire can depopulate cities by accident, THAT is splitting hairs.

 

Look, I don't have a horse in the race as to whether someone in the pattern can destory the Wheel, or imprison the DO, or whatever. All I'm saying is that the question is valid. Even if it contradicts what RJ said otherwise, it is a valid question. It's valid because it seems to contradict what RJ has said. In other words, the incongruity of balefire's potential to destroy the pattern and the notion that no one within the pattern can destroy the pattern deserves some sort of answer... some sort of resolution.

 

Balefire is within the pattern, as is the person weaving it. Can a person, wielding balefire, do enough damage to destroy the pattern? It deserves an answer.

[Aquarius]

Padan Fain is the link, the thing that has to touch the Dark One but can be touched by the One Power.  He's gollum, the obsessive guy who is evil who will ultimately finish the Dark Lord.  Padan Fain is the key here, he's got to bridge the gap.

Yeah but how? There needs to be some sort of personification of the DO now that Shadar Logoth is destroyed. In the same way Sauron's power lay in the Ring, the DO's influence must be something physical that Fain (the man) will have to meet/touch/fight/whatever. May it be Moridin (seriously doubt it) or SH (more probably), or Rand thanks to some weird plot twist.

[SammuelLoE]

 

Balefire is within the pattern, as is the person weaving it. Can a person, wielding balefire, do enough damage to destroy the pattern? It deserves an answer.

 

My personal opinion is that technically you could unweave the pattern with enough Balefire. However, the pattern being the pattern would simply weave something out to stop you from doing it. While it isn't physically impossible to do, the patern simply wont allow it. Perhaps Moridrin knows this, and this is the reason he doesn't just run around BF'ing everything. Because if you deviate too far from the paterns choosen course, it will snap back to where it needs to be. Just my way of seeing it. What RJ said still is valid in this case.

[metaphor]

Padan Fain is the link, the thing that has to touch the Dark One but can be touched by the One Power.  He's gollum, the obsessive guy who is evil who will ultimately finish the Dark Lord.  Padan Fain is the key here, he's got to bridge the gap.

Yeah but how? There needs to be some sort of personification of the DO now that Shadar Logoth is destroyed. In the same way Sauron's power lay in the Ring, the DO's influence must be something physical that Fain (the man) will have to meet/touch/fight/whatever. May it be Moridin (seriously doubt it) or SH (more probably), or Rand thanks to some weird plot twist.

 

Throwing him in the hole in perfect LOTR style would probably work  ;D

There is also the possibility that Callandor may be able to control Fain's evil or Fain tries to kill Rand at Shaiol Ghul and releases all his powers there giving Rand the chance he needs.

I think he may end up fighting Shaidar Haram, who apparently is the avatar of the DO in the world and can take away the source from the channelers.

The cleansing of Saidin is a perfect example of how the 2 evils would work on each other.

 

 

[Arath Faringal]

No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

So does that mean balefire isn't nearly as dangerous as we are led to believe? That using a lot of balefire won't unravel the pattern?

 

The problem is that you're talking apples and oranges here.  Nobody inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Pattern.  In other words, you can't destroy time itself, nor can you change what the Pattern is trying to achieve with its weaving.  

 

Balefire can, and enough of it will, unravel the Pattern to the point of collapse.  But no amount of balefire will make the Pattern alter what it is trying to achieve.  It will just keep weaving toward its goal, right up until the bitter end.