So what were Aginor and Balthamal up to anyway?

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

All the recent talk of The Eye of the World has got me wondering,  what did the toxic twins want with The Eye?  I man they had the DO's protection from the taint so they already had access to all the Saiden they could handle.  Having an pool of untainted Saiden really wouldn't give them any leverage over the other forsaken since they also had access to all the untainted OP they could handle.  The only explanation is can come up with is that they were planning on doing something behind the DO's back.  And if this is the case what were they planning to do?

[balefireruinssteaks]

isn't this the exact same question that the other thread posed?

[alligator]

The other thread asked what the purpose of the Eye was-- to those who created it and those who wanted to use it-- and what would have happened if the Shadow got a hold of it. This one asks why Aginor and Balthamel in particular wanted use of it.

 

As to an answer for either, I have none. The Eye has always seemed a little out of place in the grand WoT scheme to me.

[Agitel]

Perhaps there were some things that they wanted to do without the Dark One looking over their shoulder. Perhaps they didn't know how large it was. And perhaps we don't know everything about the Eye itself.

[Mr. Dragon]

Perhaps they didn't know how large it was.

This seems likely as it was created after they were sealed.

[OptimusPrime]

Could it be that they didnt want the Dragon to have access to any clean saidin at all? Without the Eye, Rand cant help but compromise his own sanity in order to do what he must. Plus, for all we know, the ammount of saidin might have been enough for Aginor to create some personalized Shadowspawn experiment, going off what RJ said about him wanting to act without the Dark One seeing.

[Suttree]

"Week 20 Question: Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean Saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?

 

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He was able to channel clean saidin, true, but only through the "filter" which had been provided by the Dark One just a short time previously, which meant the Dark One would be aware of him channeling wherever he was. Remember, Aginor was the creator of the Trollocs; he is quite able to reason things out clearly, at least in a scientific sense. Also, he wasn't certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what he was doing when he channeled, too. For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage. Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently."

 

As quoted in the other thread...

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Thanks Suttree, I guess that answers the question :D

[rubbernilly]

Actually, it doesn't, really. Not to my mind, anyway.

 

Aginor's motivations are all off.

 

In fact, RJ's quote there nails it, in my opinion. There was nothing different about the Eye-saidin compared to the filtered-saidin except for the DO's knowledge.

 

So Aginor could have regenerated himself with any saidin. Otherwise, RJ would have indicated that the Eye saidin was special and *that* was why Aginor wanted it... or, at the very least, given a RAFO answer to the question. Asked specifically why Aginor was interested in the Eye, RJ answers with the DO-knowledge angle.

 

Aginor was, in effect, wasting the Eye-saidin on giving himself new flesh when any saidin could have done for that, and certainly the DO wouldn't have cared that Aginor was regenerating. What Aginor did was like throwing away a trump card.

[Agitel]

Actually, it doesn't, really. Not to my mind, anyway.

 

Aginor's motivations are all off.

 

In fact, RJ's quote there nails it, in my opinion. There was nothing different about the Eye-saidin compared to the filtered-saidin except for the DO's knowledge.

 

So Aginor could have regenerated himself with any saidin. Otherwise, RJ would have indicated that the Eye saidin was special and *that* was why Aginor wanted it... or, at the very least, given a RAFO answer to the question. Asked specifically why Aginor was interested in the Eye, RJ answers with the DO-knowledge angle.

 

Aginor was, in effect, wasting the Eye-saidin on giving himself new flesh when any saidin could have done for that, and certainly the DO wouldn't have cared that Aginor was regenerating. What Aginor did was like throwing away a trump card.

 

I'm sure there are other reasons to desire it than regeneration. Even so, the Forsaken had no access to angreal or sa'angreal. It's possible that the Eye served a similar function in adding to a person's capacity to draw, and that it was only with the increased strength that Aginor was able to pull off such a feat.

 

It might also be that the act of channeling such massive amounts of saidin itself had such positive effects. The older novices who come to the rebel Aes Sedai don't just have slower aging, but even seem a little more youthful than they were, given time.

[Cillian]

All the recent talk of The Eye of the World has got me wondering,  what did the toxic twins want with The Eye? The only explanation is can come up with is that they were planning on doing something behind the DO's back.

 

Yes. Infact they were eloping. They stumbled across the Eye because of their need of a place where the DO couldn't find them.

[Agitel]

All the recent talk of The Eye of the World has got me wondering,  what did the toxic twins want with The Eye? The only explanation is can come up with is that they were planning on doing something behind the DO's back.

 

Yes. Infact they were eloping. They stumbled across the Eye because of their need of a place where the DO couldn't find them.

 

One of their unique areas of interest after coming out of being sealed was in the Warder bond, which they manipulated, and were going to use on each other for their marriage ceremony. The DO doesn't approve of this sort of union, so they had to do it in secret.

 

It is known.

[Cillian]

*nods*

 

It is known.

[Suttree]

Actually, it doesn't, really. Not to my mind, anyway.

 

Aginor's motivations are all off.

 

In fact, RJ's quote there nails it, in my opinion. There was nothing different about the Eye-saidin compared to the filtered-saidin except for the DO's knowledge.

 

So Aginor could have regenerated himself with any saidin. Otherwise, RJ would have indicated that the Eye saidin was special and *that* was why Aginor wanted it... or, at the very least, given a RAFO answer to the question. Asked specifically why Aginor was interested in the Eye, RJ answers with the DO-knowledge angle.

 

Aginor was, in effect, wasting the Eye-saidin on giving himself new flesh when any saidin could have done for that, and certainly the DO wouldn't have cared that Aginor was regenerating. What Aginor did was like throwing away a trump card.

 

Saying that Aginor's motives seem off to you means nothing. Further nowhere in the series has anyone used channeling to self regenerate, there is nothing that supports it or even hints at it. Again if Aginor could have used "any" Saidin to regenerate it is the very first thing he would have done upon gaining freedom. On the flip side we have a clear Answer from RJ as to Aginor's motives, the power in the "Eye" is referred to as "essence" of pure Saidin(the only time in the story I remember this phrase being used) and it was created by 100  male and female channelers shortly after the breaking. It is noted that "the greatest Aes Sedai works were always done so joining Saidin and Saidar as the True Source is joined" and "the greatest wonders of the Age of Legends were done in that way Saidin and Saidar together". Those all point to the Eye being created to have powerful special properties. Sorry but RJ's opinion backed up by quotes from the story that clearly hint at the importance of the Eye means a bit more than you not agreeing because it doesnt seem right. Back up your point of view, show us where anyone has used the power to do what you say Aginor could have done with "any" Saidin. Just stop putting forth a personnel opinion that not only contradicts the author but also has no backing from events in the series.

[rubbernilly]

Saying that Aginor's motives seem off to you means nothing.

 

Actually, it means that I’m expressing my opinion.

 

You say that if Aginor could have used any saidin to regenerate, he would have done that as the first thing he did upon getting free. You’re right. That’s exactly what he is doing.

 

Now, how do we know that any saidin could have done the same thing? Because of the quote from RJ. He was asked, specifically, what interest Aginor had in the Eye. Let’s look at how he answered… or how he didn’t answer.

 

**He didn’t answer that the Eye had regenerative powers. If he *had* answered that way, we’d know that the Eye was uniquely regenerative (meaning that saidin ought-else was not regenerative).

**He didn’t answer with a RAFO. If he *had* answered that way, we’d know that there was something unique to the Eye compared with other saidin… in which case we would have to leave open the possibility that the Eye was uniquely regenerative.

**He didn’t answer that it was the “essence” of saidin, and therefore had special properties. In terms of whether the Eye was uniquely regenerative, this would have qualified as a RAFO type answer, since we’d have to leave open the possibility that the Eye *was* uniquely regenerative.

**He *did* answer with what made the Eye unique: the DO couldn’t know if you channeled it and he couldn’t know what you did with it. That could be a very powerful trump card to a Forsaken.

 

If the regenerative powers of the Eye made it unique, it would qualify as at least part of the reason Aginor would want it rather than the saidin he had otherwise available through the DO’s filter… meaning, if it were true, we should have at least gotten a RAFO answer out of RJ.

 

On the flip side we have a clear Answer from RJ as to Aginor's motives….

Indeed. We do.

 

…the power in the "Eye" is referred to as "essence" of pure Saidin(the only time in the story I remember this phrase being used) and it was created by 100  male and female channelers shortly after the breaking. It is noted that "the greatest Aes Sedai works were always done so joining Saidin and Saidar as the True Source is joined" and "the greatest wonders of the Age of Legends were done in that way Saidin and Saidar together". Those all point to the Eye being created to have powerful special properties.

Those all equally point to it being a very difficult thing to de-taint the saidin, and therefore how special the Eye is that it was done, at all.

 

Back up your point of view, show us where anyone has used the power to do what you say Aginor could have done with "any" Saidin.

The closest thing, though different, is the age-slowing properties of channeling. There simply is no one else (besides the toxic twins) who have been aging for the past 3000 years.

 

Just stop putting forth a personnel opinion that not only contradicts the author but also has no backing from events in the series.

How is it I get under people’s skin just by stating my opinion? It’s like I turn a critical eye to parts of the story and that’s enough invitation for people to be unpleasant. Whatever. I’ll let you know when your opinion of my opinion matters.

 

Now, I trust that you can see why, if the Eye is not uniquely regenerative, Aginor’s motivations are waaay off in that scene. If not, I can lay out the rest of the dominos.

 

[Suttree]

You are welcome to express your opinion, but when it directly contradicts that of the author you can't be expected to be taken seriously. So in your mind Aginor gets free and instead of using Saidin to self regenerate he in his weakened state takes a dangerous journey risking his life through the blight...to arrive at something he has no need for? The most brilliant scientific mind of the age of legends and that is the decision you think he makes? Slowing has nothing to do with it, that is pure speculation on your part. People would constantly self regenerate to never grow old once they reached an aged appearance if it was possible. All of this however is beside the point which is RJ told us what Aginor's motives were and that makes them his motives. How you could not understand that is beyond me. You keep picking and choosing what to respond to in an attempt to state a case yet show no proof from events in the series. It is all guesswork and assumption, when asked to back it up with points from the book you still just present an opinion on motives that we already know not to be true from what RJ has told us. You can't change what a character's motivations are because it doesn't feel right to you. For the last time I could care less if my opinion of yours matters but what should matter is RJ's opinion. Stop changing the issue guessing on the nature of the Eye. The title of the thread is "So What were Aginor and Balthamel up to anyway?" The question RJ clearly answered was "Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean Saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?" We have a clear answer to this question and no opinion of yours will ever trump the opinion of Robert Jordan. End of!!! Done. Fin.

[rubbernilly]

Suttree, stay with me.

 

RJ answered the question.

 

He established the motive of Aginor.

 

That motive is inconsistent.

 

SHORT OF the Eye being *uniquely* regenerative, Aginor went to great pains for something that could have happened anywhere (regenerating). What would the DO care if Aginor regenerated?

 

...HOWEVER, claiming the Eye *was* uniquely regenerative is a matter of apologetics for the text. RJ's quote tells us that Aginor was after the Eye because the DO had no awareness of it, not because it was uniquely regenerative. As you say, RJ establishes Aginor's motivations, both what they are and what they are not.

[Bobbity]

In the Eye of the World, Moiraine stated that the Eye was created to give the next Dragon a source of untainted Saidin, so as not to be corrupted by the Dark One. To me, it just looked like Aginor and Balthamal wanted to rid the world of it before Rand could use it.

Of course, it could have been a conspiracy to keep Bela from the eye, and from regaining her true form as the creator, but I think not.

[The Fisher King]

I have a question:

 

Geographically-Speaking...WHERE were Aginor and Balthmael re-spun in relation to The Eye?

 

One thing I am always struck by in my rare rereads of EOTW, is that both Chosen seem soooo disoriented and out-of-it (especially Balthmael)...almost like someone just coming out of of a coma...

 

Is it possible that they didn't have any real intent, but were just in the early stages of getting their bearings?

 

 

Fish

[rubbernilly]

I have a question:

 

Geographically-Speaking...WHERE were Aginor and Balthmael re-spun in relation to The Eye?

 

One thing I am always struck by in my rare rereads of EOTW, is that both Chosen seem soooo disoriented and out-of-it (especially Balthmael)...almost like someone just coming out of of a coma...

 

Is it possible that they didn't have any real intent, but were just in the early stages of getting their bearings?

 

 

Fish

 

I don't know about not having any intent (just wandering), but I did get the impression that they had only just emerged, possibly very close to where the Green Man was at that moment. Either that, or they Traveled there immediately upon release.

 

YMMV.