A Question of Possibility

[Leatherleaf]

Do you think it is possible to balefire oneself?

 

My hypothesis is that it is not possible, because the balefire would undo the effects of itself, in essence, returning the person before they could weave the flows.

 

Of course, maybe balefiring oneself would cause a loophole in the pattern in that particular space?

 

Any other thoughts?

[Durinax]

well it could almost allow you to create a infinite loop if you used a thin enough weave lol

[Nightstrike]

Balefire makes the weaves of the balefired become erased. The Balefire can't erase itself. So I strongly believe the weave won't work if anyone would try it.

[Casabamelon]

There are a couple other balefire threads that would probably get a better response. That, and a lot of the paradox stuff is covered there.

[Nightstrike]

If someone balefires himself, then his weaves becomes erased. So there were never any balefire. That's the only possible response.

[OptimusPrime]

Wouldnt it create some oddity like it did with Moridin and Rand? In my oppinion, the question "Whos balefire wins?" was unanswerable which is why the unusual connection was formed.

 

Which would happen first? Would you die five minutes ago if the last five minutes of your life was erased? My theory is yes you would die. Think of it this way; when Rand balefired [anyone he balefired] their previous actions no longer affected the world, so technically you could come up with "the target never actually moved to the place they were stood when balefired." Yet they still die, its just how it is. I reckon you can balefire yourself, just aim at your foot. But there might be some wierd consequence involved with the Pattern maybe. It might kill you and bring you back as you were five minutes ago.

[Nightstrike]

Wouldnt it create some oddity like it did with Moridin and Rand? In my oppinion, the question "Whos balefire wins?" was unanswerable which is why the unusual connection was formed.

That wasn't the same thing. That was OP & TP streams crossing each other. Not two people balefiring each other.

 

 

Which would happen first? Would you die five minutes ago if the last five minutes of your life was erased?

If your thread burns back five minutes, then your weaves during that time are erased. They never happened. If you killed someone during that time, then they live again. That includes yourself.

 

 

[mb]

The best chance to balefire self might be to Travel/Skim to somewhere in balefire's path after weaving the balefire.

Or if weaves can go through a Gateway, maybe make a Gateway then Balefire through it.

 

Same kind of processes to attempt doing any weave on self.

 

[Forgemage]

If you take the relatively "normal" time paradox of balefire itself it gives a clue to the question. Say for instance you Travel to a particular spot, instantly get balefired and dead. Something that could well happen in WoT, well then you died before you Travelled thus you weren't even there to be balefired. If the Pattern allows that possibility then why not balefire yourself.

 

Personally I think that the worlds that could be, accessed through the Portal Stones holds the key to the paradoxes of balefire. 

[Nightstrike]

Say for instance you Travel to a particular spot, instantly get balefired and dead. Something that could well happen in WoT, well then you died before you Travelled thus you weren't even there to be balefired. If the Pattern allows that possibility then why not balefire yourself.

The balefired's thread wasn't there to be balefired. It never is. His weaving was undone when the thread burns back in time.

 

Picture the Gateway slashing something when it forms. That is undone. It's no longer slashed, since the Gateway never existed.

 

(Of course, the rest of the world remember him being there to be balefired. But that's another story.)

 

Personally I think that the worlds that could be, accessed through the Portal Stones holds the key to the paradoxes of balefire.

Problem is that balefire only takes away direct actions of the balefired. The reality after the balefire isn't exactly the same as if everything had replayed. So it's not an alternative reality that could have occured if the person had died in any other way. Even the body disappears...

 

 

 

[Forgemage]

I think it's more of a case that the Pattern allows or is unable to stop the existence of Balefire due to the existence of these paralell worlds, a sort of existencial redundancy system.

 

Another point that the lingering memories hints at is that memories in Randland seem to exist outside the Pattern. hmmm not sure what that would mean...

[OptimusPrime]

Wouldnt it create some oddity like it did with Moridin and Rand? In my oppinion, the question "Whos balefire wins?" was unanswerable which is why the unusual connection was formed.

That wasn't the same thing. That was OP & TP streams crossing each other. Not two people balefiring each other.

 

 

Proof please? My theory is that the sickness is the side effect of the True Power being involved but the connection itself would be there even if it was two Saidar streams.

 

If your thread burns back five minutes, then your weaves during that time are erased. They never happened. If you killed someone during that time, then they live again. That includes yourself.

 

But if you killed yourself which would be the decider? Your death, or your balefire that undoes your death?

[Casabamelon]

If someone balefires himself, then his weaves becomes erased. So there were never any balefire. That's the only possible response.

 

Oh, good, thanks for solving that.

 

I was worried someone would try and make the argument that having one's thread burnt out of the pattern would make it impossible for someone to come back (like balefiring someone who balefired someone else... wow someone should start a thread for that). After all, the pattern tries to mend itself based off the threads that remain. A dead person is still a thread. A balefired person's thread no longer exists.

 

Lucky for me, then, that you were here to provide your opinion and then state it's the only possible opinion.

 

*wipes sweat from forehead* Glad that worry is off my mind.

 

 

 

Someone help me out, I know there's some more sarcasm I can throw in here without repeating myself...

[rubbernilly]

I think that the whole debate arises out of the fact that balefire is, alone, immune to its own paradox. Everything else that happened during the time where the balefire erased someone did not happen... like the target of the balefire walking across the street. If the balefire erased him back to the initial side of the street, then he shouldn't have been on the far side of the street to be targeted by the balefire... except that balefire is immune to its own paradox that way.

 

So, I think that questions like "can you balefire yourself" get asked because people see the balefire immune to the "unweaving" of itself.

 

I thought there was a quote from RJ where someone had asked that specific case:

 

Waffle Boy balefires The Glorious Nit

one second later, Procrastinatorio (who saw the balefire weave forming but just couldn't be bothered to do anything about it yet) decides that he should so something, so he balefires Waffle Boy.

 

I believe RJ's answer was that the end result was that The Glorious Nit is still dead. The Glorious Nit isn't brought back by his balefirer being balefired.

 

That would seem to mean that you *can* balefire yourself... if balefire doesn't undo balefire.

 

Another way to look at it: sure, balefiring yourself might make it so that you weren't there to weave the balefire, but it also means that you weren't there to remove yourself from the effects of balefire (by virtue of having woven balefire to back you up in time), so you're there to be affected by the balefire you initially wove. You're dead. In fact, because it's balefire, you're already dead. :D

[Nightstrike]

@Casabamelon: I've explained it in great detail. It still is the only possible response.

 

[Nightstrike]

Wouldnt it create some oddity like it did with Moridin and Rand? In my oppinion, the question "Whos balefire wins?" was unanswerable which is why the unusual connection was formed.

That wasn't the same thing. That was OP & TP streams crossing each other. Not two people balefiring each other.

Proof please? My theory is that the sickness is the side effect of the True Power being involved but the connection itself would be there even if it was two Saidar streams.

What oddity are we talking about? There's only been one incident with OP & TP streams crossing. We know what happens when someone is balefired. Their weaves become erased. There's your proof.

 

[mb]

The best chance to balefire self might be to Travel/Skim to somewhere in balefire's path after weaving the balefire.

Or if weaves can go through a Gateway, maybe make a Gateway then Balefire through it.

 

Same kind of processes to attempt doing any weave on self.

Another method other than those (for balefiring self):

get the rod that creates balefire and have it pointed toward you when activating it.

 

[Nightstrike]

That could actually be one way of successfully causing yourself to become balefired. Indirect actions are not erased by balefire. If it could be achieved by "activating" a device, then maybe (just maybe) it would "work".

 

Not much to strive for, though.  :P

[Casabamelon]

@Casabamelon: I've explained it in great detail. It still is the only possible response.

 

 

When something is balefired, the pattern does not unweave itself and then reweave without the thread. The thread is burned backwards and the pattern patches itself together in the burned spot with the remaining threads. If a "balefirer" is balefired, then the original "balefiree"s thread doesn't exist to be rewoven into the pattern.

 

Dismiss it as pure speculation if you'd like, but there is nothing logically inconsistent with this theory of how balefire works (and there is nothing in the text to contradict this theory). If you still claim that yours is the only possible response... well... so be it. I assume your "great detail" is in another thread, as you have, at most, a smallish paragraph's worth of information in this thread. And if it is somewhere else, then that supports my original point that this should be in one of the "balefire" threads.

 

Dang it. How did I get so off my original point?

 

Oh, right. Internet.

[OptimusPrime]

Wouldnt it create some oddity like it did with Moridin and Rand? In my oppinion, the question "Whos balefire wins?" was unanswerable which is why the unusual connection was formed.

That wasn't the same thing. That was OP & TP streams crossing each other. Not two people balefiring each other.

Proof please? My theory is that the sickness is the side effect of the True Power being involved but the connection itself would be there even if it was two Saidar streams.

What oddity are we talking about? There's only been one incident with OP & TP streams crossing. We know what happens when someone is balefired. Their weaves become erased. There's your proof.

 

 

Nightstrike when you post stuff as fact when you clearly cant know for sure it makes you look stupid. There are more than just your oppinion. If you think the only option is that one, then you are wrong and Im postive Im not the only person who is thinking that. Im at work at the mo so I'll reply properly later, but dude, balefire is nowhere near as simple as you seem to think. Just because you cant see another solution doesnt mean there isnt one.

[Nightstrike]

There are only 2 possibilities in this situation. Neither results in success (if suicide is the intent). Either all weaves/actions of the balefired becomes erased, and the balefired reappears at the place where he was x minutes ago. Or, much more likely, the balefire weave erases only the balefire itself. Which would mean that the weave won't work at all.

[rubbernilly]

...or the balefire, because it already manipulates threads-in-time could have a strange logic going on that would lead to more than just 2 possibilities.

 

For instance, my example where the balefire is immune to its own paradox.

 

Another way to look at it: sure, balefiring yourself might make it so that you weren't there to weave the balefire, but it also means that you weren't there to remove yourself from the effects of balefire (by virtue of having woven balefire to back you up in time), so you're there to be affected by the balefire you initially wove. You're dead. In fact, because it's balefire, you're already dead.

 

IOW, once woven, it exists.

 

You may not like the logic of it, but we're dealing with time paradoxes here... and this does, at least, follow *a* logic.

[Nightstrike]

Q: "If person A balefires person B, then person C balefires person A, what happens?"

RJ: Depends on how strong the balefire was....

Balefire does not exist once it's woven. If the person is erased, then the effects of balefire are erased. Eliminating that paradox.

 

(The Wheel rearranges reality after the Balefire.)

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Wouldnt it create some oddity like it did with Moridin and Rand? In my oppinion, the question "Whos balefire wins?" was unanswerable which is why the unusual connection was formed.

That wasn't the same thing. That was OP & TP streams crossing each other. Not two people balefiring each other.

Proof please? My theory is that the sickness is the side effect of the True Power being involved but the connection itself would be there even if it was two Saidar streams.

What oddity are we talking about? There's only been one incident with OP & TP streams crossing. We know what happens when someone is balefired. Their weaves become erased. There's your proof.

 

 

So basically this post did nothing to prove anyones point.

 

The oddity I was talking about is the connection between Rand and Moridin. That was caused by two streams of balefire trying to stop each other from having been channeled in the first place. Naturally, because both streams were equal in power neither wins, which means each one tries to take back the channelers action of channeling. That cant be stopped either, and aside from the fact that they were both channeling at the instant they connected, it screams for soemthing wierd to happen. The connection was formed because of both balefires Pattern affecting aspect. It fits, because Rand Mat and Perrin are all connected via the Pattern with their Pattern correcting Ta'verenism. The connected Ta'veren see each other when they think of each other, the two channelers see each other in situations that only involve channeling.

 

There is no reason to think Rand would be getting sick if the True Power wasnt involved. We have repeatedly seen its capability for corruption, both physical and mental, yet theres absolutely no reason to think a Saidin-Saidin, Saidin-Saidar or Saidar-Saidar balefire incedent wouldnt result in the same connection minus the sickness.

 

When you make it out to be so simple Nightstrike, I would ask you one thing. If it is as simple as "balefiring yourself kills you" why the hell was there a connection at all between Rand and Moridin after the incedent? Because the way you say it, there is none of this undecisiveness with balefire, yet we have proof of it in the form of Rand and Moridin being connected. If, before Shadar Logoth, someone said "what would happen if two people crossed balefires" there is no way you would have predicted the outcome to be what it was Nightstrike.

 

If you balefired yourself, you killed yourself but you didnt kill yourself. Which wins? None of us can be sure because there are those consequences of the Pattern.

[Nightstrike]

The oddity I was talking about is the connection between Rand and Moridin.

So what?

 

Naturally, because both streams were equal in power neither wins,

Equal? How do you know? How would it matter? Neither of them died... They didn't balefire themselves... Or each other, for that matter.

 

There is no reason to think Rand would be getting sick if the True Power wasnt involved.

Exactly!

 

When you make it out to be so simple Nightstrike, I would ask you one thing. If it is as simple as "balefiring yourself kills you"

It doesn't.

 

yet we have proof of it in the form of Rand and Moridin being connected.

So what?