Fates worse than Death for Bad Girls (spoilers)

[Lord D]

Revenge has already been exacted. If she wanted blunt revenge, she'd have executed her like that. Now, Suroth has to suffer a life as a da'covale, sorta like what was done to Colavaere, the fact that she lives in a much lowered station is revenge enough. Tuon's revenge is much more terrible and lasting than anything else that could have been done, she got her pound of flesh already so to speak.

Rape will always make any penalty even more terrible.

 

Ultimately, here are the facts. Tuon and the DG would never do that, that's a fact that's been made clear by their behaviour and their beliefs we know of. There is not a single shred of proof to support your conclusion, it is also a fact, not even a castaway thought in the mentions of Suroth made in tGS. It's just pure conjuncture based on nothing.

Where is the evidence that the DW Guard wouldn't do such a thing?  Of course Suroth is unimportant by tGS and so there's no need to mention exactly what her punishment entailed.  Tuon has been described as having a very harsh judgment face, and traitors are less than human, so you can have them raped without compunction.

[lillcheese]

Let's start with the assumption that Tuon doesn't have any severe emotional or psychological problems that would make her prone to get off on having Suroth raped.

 

I find it difficult to believe that a woman such as Tuon would ever endorse rape.  Even as a punishment for a traitor/df.  Rape does not just demean the victim, it demeans women generally.  I find it difficult to believe that a society that seems to have gender parity could maintain that while using rape as a punishment.  As someone else pointed out, rape is about establishing power over the victim, but there is no need for that.  Tuon has total power no matter what happens to Suroth.  The DW Guard are feared above all others already and so must feel plenty powerful.  There's no substantial reason for them to WANT to rape anyone.  Plus, sex is a lot of work - supposedly the best way to burn calories.  I think the DW Guard have better things to spend their time and energy on than rape.

 

Mentions of punishment for being a df/traitor in other circumstances have been limited to being tortured for information/confession and strung up in the Tower of Ravens.  There's never been an implication of rape before.

 

You have to assume a lot about Seanchan society, the DW guard and Tuon in order to come to the conclusion that Suroth MUST have been raped as part of her punishment. Those assumptions contradict everything we already know.  Without more than a comment/thought that the DW Guard would have charge of her until her hair had grown out, I don't think you can justify the rape conclusion.

[Dreamwalker]

Revenge has already been exacted. If she wanted blunt revenge, she'd have executed her like that. Now, Suroth has to suffer a life as a da'covale, sorta like what was done to Colavaere, the fact that she lives in a much lowered station is revenge enough. Tuon's revenge is much more terrible and lasting than anything else that could have been done, she got her pound of flesh already so to speak.

Rape will always make any penalty even more terrible.

 

Ultimately, here are the facts. Tuon and the DG would never do that, that's a fact that's been made clear by their behaviour and their beliefs we know of. There is not a single shred of proof to support your conclusion, it is also a fact, not even a castaway thought in the mentions of Suroth made in tGS. It's just pure conjuncture based on nothing.

Where is the evidence that the DW Guard wouldn't do such a thing?  Of course Suroth is unimportant by tGS and so there's no need to mention exactly what her punishment entailed.  Tuon has been described as having a very harsh judgment face, and traitors are less than human, so you can have them raped without compunction.

 

If everything about the scene were exactly the same, except that Suroth was a man, would you still be so insistent that a rape occurred?

 

Also, I don't understand why you are so convinced that Tuon and the Seanchan would do such an evil thing. The past few books RJ has been trying to bring them to a point where we can understand/identify with them more and see that they aren't "evil" like we thought in the early books, mostly because the things we saw of them were solely Egwene's captivity and the attack at Falme. Yes, they are misguided when it comes to channelers. But other than that it's mostly cultural differences and by the end of tGS we see Rand taking a pretty positive view of them. With this softening view of Seanchan culture that's been going on (ever since the intro of Tuon and especially with Mat's developing relationship with her, getting her PoVs, etc.) I highly doubt that RJ would suddenly throw in rape, especially with the characters (Tuon and Karede) that have given us most of our softening view - it would take them right back to being seen as evil again.

[Ala Rubra]

If everything about the scene were exactly the same, except that Suroth was a man, would you still be so insistent that a rape occurred?

 

Yes, I would. Men get raped too, and by other straight men. The immediate clothing loss would at least point my mind in that direction.

 

As for Suroth the female, I'm personally not going to say that I think the entire guard would get in on the rape, but it doesn't take much for humans to do bad things, particularly if they feel superior to the victim.

 

This has nothing to do with Seanchan society as a whole, just human nature. But if we were to bring the Seanchan culture into this, let me say that they are nowhere NEAR as honor-bound and generally moral as the Aiel. The Seanchan treat a portion of humanity as animals, and another large portion as property! Their good point is only the ability to maintain order. For light's sake, Tuon was EXPECTED to off all her siblings!

 

The Deathwatch are noted only for two things, their combat ability and their near-fanatic loyalty. Tuon says to them "Here, this woman is a traitor, she tried to kill me and I'm making her into a slave, so until her hair grows out, she's yours to serve you in any way", and you expect me to believe that NONE of the men there will take advantage of that?

 

It's ridiculous.

[Eht Slat Meit]

This has nothing to do with Seanchan society as a whole, just human nature. But if we were to bring the Seanchan culture into this, let me say that they are nowhere NEAR as honor-bound and generally moral as the Aiel. The Seanchan treat a portion of humanity as animals, and another large portion as property! Their good point is only the ability to maintain order. For light's sake, Tuon was EXPECTED to off all her siblings!

 

It should be noted here that Seanchan da'covale are not the equivalent of real life slaves. They have the ability to rise to ranks matching the High Blood, where real life slaves are little better than animals. Valuable animals, in some cases, but beneath everyone. Saying that they use people as property isn't the stinging indictment of Seanchan that you make it sound like. The damane are an entirely different matter, the equivalent of actual slaves, at best considered to be valuable animals.

 

The Deathwatch are noted only for two things, their combat ability and their near-fanatic loyalty. Tuon says to them "Here, this woman is a traitor, she tried to kill me and I'm making her into a slave, so until her hair grows out, she's yours to serve you in any way", and you expect me to believe that NONE of the men there will take advantage of that?

 

Two things to keep in mind, one that we learned from Egeanin, and the other from Suroth:

1. Seanchan, at least those who are not da'covale, have a great deal of modesty, to the point where being seen in a shift is mortifying.

2. Death, suicide and the Tower of Ravens are considered a better punishment than being made da'covale, for an (overly?) proud Seanchan High Blood.

 

It's ridiculous.

 

There's an old story called the Lady and the Tiger. I'm sure it's familiar enough that I don't need to explain it. Basically, the correlation is that the idea that Suroth would be raped is only as ridiculous as you consider Tuon malicious. We know that she's hard, has grown up in a lifestyle where she's had to survive repeated assasination, an environment prone to high politics. Is she -that- cold and vengeful, that barbaric? that she'd give another woman over that way to be raped just because she tried to have her killed?

[Casabamelon]

Ultimately, here are the facts. Tuon and the DG would never do that, that's a fact that's been made clear by their behaviour and their beliefs we know of. There is not a single shred of proof to support your conclusion, it is also a fact, not even a castaway thought in the mentions of Suroth made in tGS. It's just pure conjuncture based on nothing.

 

For the record, I agree with the position that Suroth was not raped. That being said, be mindful of how you throw the word "Fact" around. As soon as you said "that's a fact" to something that is actually an inference from the text, you immediately lost credibility from me, and I'm on your side.

 

If everything about the scene were exactly the same, except that Suroth was a man, would you still be so insistent that a rape occurred?

 

Yes, I would. Men get raped too, and by other straight men. The immediate clothing loss would at least point my mind in that direction.

 

As for Suroth the female, I'm personally not going to say that I think the entire guard would get in on the rape, but it doesn't take much for humans to do bad things, particularly if they feel superior to the victim.

 

This has nothing to do with Seanchan society as a whole, just human nature.

 

<SNIP>

 

The Deathwatch are noted only for two things, their combat ability and their near-fanatic loyalty. Tuon says to them "Here, this woman is a traitor, she tried to kill me and I'm making her into a slave, so until her hair grows out, she's yours to serve you in any way", and you expect me to believe that NONE of the men there will take advantage of that?

 

It's ridiculous.

 

There is only one instance I can think of where "straight" men rape other men. Prison. In prison (as in virtually ALL cases) rape is about POWER. The Deathwatch Guard already have power and respect. Why would they need to lower themselves?

 

Personally, I think you have a terrible view about human nature, and are reading too much into this. I will freely admit that I have neutral to positive view of human nature, and it could color my opinion. That's why we go off the text. Simply put, there is NO textual precident for Deathwatch Guard raping anyone. If you've got anything other than having clothes ripped off, I'd like to see it. The onus is on you to prove your case.

 

And that's a fact.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.  ;D

[Sharaman]

We have a fair amount of PoVs and direct quotes from various Seanchan.

 

1) Suroth never thinks of the possibility of rape in all her fears of what could happen during the convo with Semirhage.

2) Nudity doesn't necessarily mean rape especially in Randland-Seanchan. For Gaishain without white clothes after Dumai's Wells and, maybe for Suroth until appropriate da'covale garments are found, it's a means of ensuring they're conspicuous - sorta makeshift prison uniform, if you like. She has to be stripped in any case since she's no longer Blood, and can;t wear those clothes.

3) In circumstances where Seanchan soldiers have been thinking of rebels made property, (during Seanchan civil wars of the consolidation) rape is also never referenced.

4) None of the Windfinders or SF women were raped - they were impaled and executed in various ways but rape's not mentioned

5) Even when they stormed Ebou Dar, Falme, Amador, etc., rape didn't occur - historically that's the most likely situation for mass rape by victorious soldiers.

6) Amathera and Morgause were not threatened with rape by the Seanchan.

 

Therefore, Suroth's fate is unlikely to involve rape.

 

[thewalrus777]

We have a fair amount of PoVs and direct quotes from various Seanchan.

 

1) Suroth never thinks of the possibility of rape in all her fears of what could happen during the convo with Semirhage.

2) Nudity doesn't necessarily mean rape especially in Randland-Seanchan. For Gaishain without white clothes after Dumai's Wells and, maybe for Suroth until appropriate da'covale garments are found, it's a means of ensuring they're conspicuous - sorta makeshift prison uniform, if you like. She has to be stripped in any case since she's no longer Blood, and can;t wear those clothes.

3) In circumstances where Seanchan soldiers have been thinking of rebels made property, (during Seanchan civil wars of the consolidation) rape is also never referenced.

4) None of the Windfinders or SF women were raped - they were impaled and executed in various ways but rape's not mentioned

5) Even when they stormed Ebou Dar, Falme, Amador, etc., rape didn't occur - historically that's the most likely situation for mass rape by victorious soldiers.

6) Amathera and Morgause were not threatened with rape by the Seanchan.

 

Therefore, Suroth's fate is unlikely to involve rape.

 

 

This is the right way of thinking. Providing instances of actually PoV's of the Seanchan in regards to female prisoners of war.

[Lord D]

We have a fair amount of PoVs and direct quotes from various Seanchan.

 

1) Suroth never thinks of the possibility of rape in all her fears of what could happen during the convo with Semirhage.

2) Nudity doesn't necessarily mean rape especially in Randland-Seanchan. For Gaishain without white clothes after Dumai's Wells and, maybe for Suroth until appropriate da'covale garments are found, it's a means of ensuring they're conspicuous - sorta makeshift prison uniform, if you like. She has to be stripped in any case since she's no longer Blood, and can;t wear those clothes.

3) In circumstances where Seanchan soldiers have been thinking of rebels made property, (during Seanchan civil wars of the consolidation) rape is also never referenced.

4) None of the Windfinders or SF women were raped - they were impaled and executed in various ways but rape's not mentioned

5) Even when they stormed Ebou Dar, Falme, Amador, etc., rape didn't occur - historically that's the most likely situation for mass rape by victorious soldiers.

6) Amathera and Morgause were not threatened with rape by the Seanchan.

 

Therefore, Suroth's fate is unlikely to involve rape.

 

 

In this series, RJ has virtually never had any scenes that could be construed as leading to rape.  The fact that the scene with Suroth can be construed that way is highly suggestive that rape did occur.

[Thor]

Hi.

 

Suroth's clothes were cut from her as she no longer had the right to wear them.  She was not raped.

[Sharaman]

Only the Moggy and Messi scenes with Shaidar Haran directly point to rape.

 

[Lord D]

Only the Moggy and Messi scenes with Shaidar Haran directly point to rape.

 

 

WHAT?!?!  Tuon makes Suroth a da'covale, then tells her she will serve the DW Guard "as they wish" until her hair has grown long enough.  At the very least, this means that Tuon doesn't care if the DW Guard use Suroth sexually.  It is thus quite ludicrous to say that rape isn't even a possibility from this scene.  Why would RJ write this scene in this way if he didn't mean to imply a rape?

[Sharaman]

Only the Moggy and Messi scenes with Shaidar Haran directly point to rape.

WHAT?!?!  Tuon makes Suroth a da'covale, then tells her she will serve the DW Guard "as they wish" until her hair has grown long enough.  At the very least, this means that Tuon doesn't care if the DW Guard use Suroth sexually.  It is thus quite ludicrous to say that rape isn't even a possibility from this scene.  Why would RJ write this scene in this way if he didn't mean to imply a rape?

 

In the incidents where rapes has been implied, RJ has clearly built up to it.

1) In the Messi/ Moggy scenes, we've had frequent prior references to Fades doing this and Shaidar stripping off his armour. 

2) When Moridin punishes Falion by making her Mili's servant and Mil has her raped by Daved Hanlon, we're told before that incident about Hanlon's habit of mistreating and raping women.

 

Nowhere has it been hinted before or after the Suroth arrest that rape is standard Seanchan operating procedure as punishment for da'covale, or anybody else. In fact, we have negative evidence suggesting it isn't.

"As they wish" can cover a whole range of things that Seanchan may find humiliating.

You're setting up a straw man - I didn't say it wasn't a possibility.

I said that there is no direct indication, and it seems unlikely.

 

 

 

 

[Lord D]

Nowhere has it been hinted before or after the Suroth arrest that rape is standard Seanchan operating procedure as punishment for da'covale, or anybody else. In fact, we have negative evidence suggesting it isn't.

"As they wish" can cover a whole range of things that Seanchan may find humiliating.

You're setting up a straw man - I didn't say it wasn't a possibility.

I said that there is no direct indication, and it seems unlikely.

 

Just because rape may not be standard punishment doesn't mean it doesn't apply in this instance.  Anyway, I can't imagine that da'covale, with their transparent robes, are not expected to sexually serve their masters/mistresses, as was done in Roman times.  Tuon gives this supporting evidence when she teases Mat about making him her cupbearer.  da'covale literally translates as property, after all.

 

There might be other humiliations the DW Guard could heap upon Suroth, but rape would be by far the mostt humiliating.  As someone else said, to think there would be nobody in the DW Guard who would want to rape Suroth is RIDICULOUS!!!!

[Sharaman]

The Seanchan are sticklers for procedure and applying laws even-handedly.

Why would Suroth be treated differently from others who have broken Seanchan laws?

She's been declared da'covale; that is her punishment and apparently, it is more humiliating for Blood than execution.

Other high-rankers like Amathera who became da'covale don't seem to have been raped. If it isn't standard procedure, she won't be raped as a matter of policy. Maybe somebody will do it on their individual initiative, maybe not.

As to "want to rape her", mileage varies between WoT cultures.

You don't know for example, if Seanchan find da'covale withiout hair, physically repulsive.

(The Aiel for instance, won't touch Da'tsang.)

Something else other than rape may be even more humiliating from the Seanchan perspective. 

 

[Auld Manriva]

Judas Priest.. could we give it a rest and move on. There is nothing.. absolutely nothing that makes "The Rape Of Suroth" a FACT. Nothing, nada, zilch.

 

That you "can't imagine" she would not be after being made do'covale means a grand total of Zero as far has her without question being molested sexually by the Death Watch Guard.

 

All anyone has stated is that it is NOT a Given... That's all. And the only bloody reason anyone said THAT is because of your contention as it being a fact and subsequent pages of defense. I'm sorry, but you are not going to convince anyone that you are correct. Her being raped is very simply, one of several possibilities.. That's all, nothing more.

 

Even though I thought on first reading the very same fate for her, on reading it through again the rape is merely possible. I won't even go so far as to say Probable... It is once more..just a possibility. The same as her NOT being raped.

[Lord D]

Even though I thought on first reading the very same fate for her, on reading it through again the rape is merely possible. I won't even go so far as to say Probable... It is once more..just a possibility. The same as her NOT being raped.

Do you care to put probabilities on this?  I say the probability of Suroth being raped is 99.9%, as close to certainty as you can get without an actual rape scene.

[alligator]

Suroth's clothes were cut from her as she no longer had the right to wear them.  She was not raped.

 

Exactly.

[lillcheese]

What a fabulous Rorschach.

[CUBAREY]

Do you care to put probabilities on this?  I say the probability of Suroth being raped is 99.9%, as close to certainty as you can get without an actual rape scene.

 

Rape might be possible even probable if she had been given to normal troops, but she was not she was turned over to the DeathWatch Guards. There total devotion to the protection of the Royal family makes them raping someone who schemed to kill the Daughter of the Nine Moons makes that unlikely. Any such association with such a person would "lower their eyes" forever.

[Lord D]

What a fabulous Rorschach.

Very funny.  I assume you are referring to this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_inkblot_test

[Dakota]

Only the Moggy and Messi scenes with Shaidar Haran directly point to rape.

WHAT?!?!   Tuon makes Suroth a da'covale, then tells her she will serve the DW Guard "as they wish" until her hair has grown long enough.  At the very least, this means that Tuon doesn't care if the DW Guard use Suroth sexually.  It is thus quite ludicrous to say that rape isn't even a possibility from this scene.  Why would RJ write this scene in this way if he didn't mean to imply a rape?

 

In the incidents where rapes has been implied, RJ has clearly built up to it.

1) In the Messi/ Moggy scenes, we've had frequent prior references to Fades doing this and Shaidar stripping off his armour.  

2) When Moridin punishes Falion by making her Mili's servant and Mil has her raped by Daved Hanlon, we're told before that incident about Hanlon's habit of mistreating and raping women.

 

Don't forget the times that Mat was raped by Queen Tylin repeatedly.

Of all the rape discussion going on in this thread, I'm suprised that nobody has brought that one up.

[thewalrus777]

Only the Moggy and Messi scenes with Shaidar Haran directly point to rape.

WHAT?!?!   Tuon makes Suroth a da'covale, then tells her she will serve the DW Guard "as they wish" until her hair has grown long enough.  At the very least, this means that Tuon doesn't care if the DW Guard use Suroth sexually.  It is thus quite ludicrous to say that rape isn't even a possibility from this scene.  Why would RJ write this scene in this way if he didn't mean to imply a rape?

 

In the incidents where rapes has been implied, RJ has clearly built up to it.

1) In the Messi/ Moggy scenes, we've had frequent prior references to Fades doing this and Shaidar stripping off his armour.  

2) When Moridin punishes Falion by making her Mili's servant and Mil has her raped by Daved Hanlon, we're told before that incident about Hanlon's habit of mistreating and raping women.

 

Don't forget the times that Mat was raped by Queen Tylin repeatedly.

Of all the rape discussion going on in this thread, I'm suprised that nobody has brought that one up.

 

But Mat really wasn't raped. He was more or less just bullied into that relationship. Foce of will on Tylin's part and Mat just kinda caved to her.

[lillcheese]

Mat was totally raped. Among other things, Tylin starved him to force compliance.  IIRC, she also held a knife to his throat the first time.

[thewalrus777]

Mat was totally raped. Among other things, Tylin starved him to force compliance.  IIRC, she also held a knife to his throat the first time.

 

OK. MAYBE he was. I'm just not used to hearing that a man got raped by a woman.