Rand is not the Dragon Reborn

[Sandmanbm]

I'm sure someone may have already posted this idea. I am not being a griefer, I assure you.

 

I brought this up a few books ago and it didn't met with a lot of support. I believe that the new book reinforces my idea. Here it is:

Rand is not, by himself, the Dragon Reborn. Rand, Matt and Perrin together are. The visions the 3 have when they think of the others is not only because they are ta'veren. they are the same being in three bodies. Each has displayed a piece of being the Dragon.

Each will/has fulfilled some of the prophecies. Most obvious is Matt, not Rand, marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons. The prophecy about Callandor is another example. Rand couldn't wield it alone, not successfully. It would take the 3 of them linked, not the Aes Sedai link but another type to be successful.

we have all noticed that Mr. Jordan took a lot of inspiration from history and mythology in his stories. I like that and don't intend it as a criticism as some do. I like the references he makes. I think the idea of the Dragon Reborn, the worlds saviour, coming as a Trinity would suit him.

[Marta Sedai]

The idea itself is not completely ridiculous, but I still don't feel it... And there is the fact that Gitara Moroso had a Foretelling that the Dragon has been reborn, and the boy who was born is Rand...

[Majsju]

Being the Dragon Reborn means being Lews Therin Telamon reborn, which Rand is. A soul can not be split, so neither Perrin, Mat nor anyone else for that matter can be walking around with a little slice of this soul.

 

 

[Vulgir]

This is completely wrong.

[Myyrth]

Just because Perrin and Mat play a major role in the eventual conflict that is Tarmon Gai'don doesn't in any way imply that they are in some way an amalgamation of the Dragon's soul.  There seems to be no support for this in the text.

 

In fact the only reference is that the three shall become one, which I actually think refers to Rand (The Dragon) and the two female channelers who are needed to properly use Callandor.

[UltramegaOK]

Neat idea, but I must disagree.  If you could present some evidence or direct quote from the book that made you think this was the case, it might go a long way towards making your case.

 

Still, it's ideas like this that keep these boards alive.  You should see some of the crazy ideas that I'VE come up with.  I had a real doozy about Ishamael being a turn-coat ex-Dragon from some past age.  Of course, I completely ignored the fact that his birth is recorded in the Age of Legends, and also that the Creator would no reason at all to spin out a turn-coat dragon more than once.

 

Still, I thought it was a neat idea at the time.  As is yours.  I think both are incorrect, however.  But by all means, keep the ideas coming.

[mb]

Like another poster told, souls cannot be split; thus all 'reborns' are only one person.

 

Callandor, the mentioned prophecy is a Gathering Storm spoiler.

 

Being mentioned in the prophecies, that does not necessarily mean that they are part of the soul; just that they play a role.

 

[Saguin Venart]

One of the conditionals is being born on the slopes of the dragonmount, Perrin and Mat were not.

[Crael123]

Rand is the Dragon. the end.

[Crael123]

none of the others heard LTTs voice

[Crael123]

oh and souls cant be split

[Talmanes]

While I don't agree with them being the Dragon together, I do agree that they are all nearly as important as each other. Rand obviously, is the most important, but will fail without the other two.

[Leatherleaf]

Interesting idea, but as most everyone has replied, it is not likely. One thing I have to point out quickly is that the prophecy of Mat marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons is NOT in the Karaethon Cycle, rather, it came from the Finns.

 

As for the Prophecies of the Dragon themselves, they not only describe the events that would hail the Dragon Reborn, but they also describe signs and events that would hail the nearness of the Last Battle. True, there are passages describing Mat and Perrin in the prophecies, however, if anyone mentioned in the Cycle was a part of the Dragon, then the one passage, "five ride forth, and four return" would mean that Hurin is, and Ingtar was, part of the Dragon.

[RedEagle]

Interesting idea, but as most everyone has replied, it is not likely. One thing I have to point out quickly is that the prophecy of Mat marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons is NOT in the Karaethon Cycle, rather, it came from the Finns.

 

The Finns do tell Mat that he will marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, but we also hear Noal reciting a part of the Karaethon Cycle referencing (I don't remember exactly how it goes) "the fox that makes the ravens fly" and something about luck being his soul and snatching the moons from out of the sky. Sorry i don't own the books or I would look it up, but maybe someone can confirm that.

[hegemonicretribution]

As above, both Perrin and Mat are mentioned in the prophecies themselves. As is often the case with Jordan though (to his credit) he often limits the narrative in proximity to a particular character or group at any given moment. The excessive focus upon the dragon to the exclusion of all else is symptomatic of a world in which the dragon reborn has been one of the most feared, and probably the most famous name in history. Even Aes Sedai are blinded by this, save (imo) Cadsuane, and perhaps Moiraine. The narratives concerning these two, however, are limitted, and uncommon. I think this may in part be to preserve their mysterious natures, but character developement aside, I believe it also acts to conserve the plot holes that we currently perceive. I wouldn't be surprised to hear some explanations about TG from these two in the next book. Cadsuane has already confirmed she has a deeper understanding of the prophecies than other AS when talking to Min.

 

The fact that there are only glimpses of the importance of Mat and Perrin does not detract from the importance of their role in their own right when considered in such a context; in a world obsessed with the DR. I won't say that the dragon's role has been overstated as such, but rather that the fox's and wolfking's (I think) have been neglected.

 

That said, I had the same suspicion as you, pretty much up until TGS. Now I think that the prophecies have strongly hinted towards the importance of the other's in their own right, so I guess that it is pretty much settled. I also thought of Mat as a channeler, and a number of other theories, I guess now I just want to see how this is brought to a close. Kudos to RJ and BS on the misdirection though. I think the use of narrative to misdirect reader's is perhaps the best feature of the series, perhaps more so than character development.

[kasper11]

I've thought about this before.  The reason being that we know a few things about LTT

1) He was a strong chaneller

2) He was a great general

3) He was a leader

 

Now look at Rand, Mat and Perrin.  Rand is the strongest channeller alive, Mat may be the greatest general alive, and people follow Perrin (they follow Rand too, but only because they believe he is the Dragon.  This is not the same.  People didn't follow LTT because of prophecy, there were none).

 

That said, I don't really by it just because of how deep the link between Rand and LTT is.

[redisgreat]

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Mat and Perrin are part of the Pattern that weaves around the Dragon. Perrin is connected to something that comes from BEFORE the time of the Age of Legend. Mat is one that survives through time as a companion of the Dragon. He cannot help but support the Dragon in his lives. He always has and always will. Perrin will be one with the wolves and will do as he sees fit, when the time comes.

Wolves will always choose a side, whether they choose the right side or not depends on Perrin.

[Durinax]

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Mat and Perrin are part of the Pattern that weaves around the Dragon. Perrin is connected to something that comes from BEFORE the time of the Age of Legend. Mat is one that survives through time as a companion of the Dragon. He cannot help but support the Dragon in his lives. He always has and always will. Perrin will be one with the wolves and will do as he sees fit, when the time comes.

Wolves will always choose a side, whether they choose the right side or not depends on Perrin.

Wolves will always choose the side of light, the only problem is whether they will take part in the last battle, that is why perrin is around, he represents nature and the people.

 

Mat represents the military side of things.

 

And finally Rand is the glue that binds them together. In the AoL LTT led the AS, was the main general and overachiever, rand is starting to overachieve now and such

[Sandmanbm]

Thank you for the replies.

Regarding LTT and Rand - yes, Rand is LTT reborn but the Dragon is LTT and more. In my theory that would be one of the parts that Rand has fulfilled. But the Dragon will unite all the world to him. Rand is uniting what I think of as 'medeival Europe' (the parallels can't be denied), Perrin the wolves and Mat the Seachean, maybe Loaol bringing in the Ogier and trees. That does leave a lot of the world unaccounted for (spin-off series akin to Shannara or the Feist novels? we can hope). At first I thought Perrins' ability would expand to most of the natural world, somewhat like a druid, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I do agree that it does seem like a silly idea, but it won't go away. One thing against my idea that hasn't been mentioned is that the prophecies state that something will happen, they don't always say that it will be the Dragon that fulfills it, often they do say it will be the Dragon but not always. If I remember right is was Moraine that said that, but I'm not sure on who exactly.

[Knightfall]

Edited ... and removed due to the tgs semi spoiler ... hopefully before anyone saw anything :) Sorry folks.

[mb]

Regarding LTT and Rand - yes, Rand is LTT reborn but the Dragon is LTT and more.

The books do not tell of any body else (than Lews Therin) being called the Dragon during Lews Therin's lifetime.

That seems to indicate that the Dragon was only Lews Therin during that time.

And since reborns can be only one person at a time, the Dragon Reborn could be only Rand during Rand's lifetime.

 

[Sandmanbm]

Sorry, didn't mean that as the Dragon is more people than LTT, just that there is more to it than being LTT. What if in an Age, LTT was reborn, as all souls are. That person is not the Dragon Reborn unless there is a need for the Dragon in that Age, prophecies get fulfilled, etc.

[MikeRiley]

Cut one leg and the tripod falls, as one of the forsaken put it. I don't believe Mat, Perrin and Rand make up the Dragon Reborn, but I do believe the three of them make up the Light's Champion. We go on the characters' assumptions that that champion is the Dragon, but it's quite possible there are three in each cycle with three specific roles that must be played out. The Dragon is just a title from this cycle, isn't it? It might not even be used in previous or future ones.

[insane_ashaman]

Cut one leg and the tripod falls, as one of the forsaken put it. I don't believe Mat, Perrin and Rand make up the Dragon Reborn, but I do believe the three of them make up the Light's Champion. We go on the characters' assumptions that that champion is the Dragon, but it's quite possible there are three in each cycle with three specific roles that must be played out. The Dragon is just a title from this cycle, isn't it? It might not even be used in previous or future ones.

 

If the 3 of them make up the light's champion, why is there no mention of the other 2 individuals who, with LTT, would have made up the light's champion in the AOL? Why put up one leg of a tripod without the other two? Under this logic, LTT would have been doomed to fail by the pattern at birth since it spun him out without his other 2 ta'veren buddies to help fight the DO.

 

I really can't further discuss this post here since it will get into to many possible spoilers, I'll find a topic in the Gathering Storm thread and this discussion can continue, because I like where it is going....

[MikeRiley]

A full cycle of the wheel includes both the current age and the Age of Legend, as well as an age prior to it. A spinning wheel does not grow larger or smaller at random, so I assume the cycles are roughly the same length. That means there would be an Age of Legends and a breaking in each cycle, and so Lews Therin would be doomed to fail. There would be no mention of the other two legs of the tripod as being the Light's Champion for the same reason Moscow is now called Mosc and America Merc. Not to mention the notes that sometimes the hero of the story wasn't the hero in reality. Thom suggests in the next age he might be referred to as the Dragon, even.