Brandon's Confusion About Cyndane's Strength. (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Also, unless I am mistaken, Luckers' position is that stilling/burning out are the same, heal-able condition.

 

Not the same--there are distinct differences--but both healable, yes.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

But that still leaves me with the question of why Cyndane thought (form her POV) no woman could be stronger (ever), and BS refusal to say Lanfear wasn't under any shennanigans.

 

Although the Finn wish was a popular theory, it wouldn't be the only possibility. An imbedded ter'angreal/angreal (maybe that silver belt or stars?) or some gift of the DO would still be in play.

 

There's room to take it either way. Lanfear also said, when Ishamael was still alive, that, even though Ishy thought he was in control of events, actually Lanfear was. That may or may not have been true, but either way it was a boast made of pride and egotism and not of sound judgment. I wouldn't put it past Lanfear to think that her strength in the power was peerless among females. She was certainly strong enough that encountering someone as powerful or more powerful than her would have been astonishing to anyone: because she herself is astonishingly strong. Combine her power with her pride, and there's no need to infer that Cyndane's quote implied she had been under any "shenanigans" as you so cutely put it.

 

On the other hand, Cyndane's quote definitely leaves the door open to imply such a thing. And her absence for more than half the series is as glaring as Moiraine's is. There's definitely something going on with Cyndane that we don't know about, and perhaps her quote in WH was a foreshadow to that. So I can definitely see how people would be tempted to dwell on it.

 

I for one take great comfort in knowing that the mysteries of Lanfear are likely to be answered in ToM. Jordan built her up, along with Ishy, as the real and true antagonists of the series--not the Dark One, not Fain, not SH, not the Black Ajah, and not the other Forsaken--and I want a fittingly grand closure for both of them. Whether she lives or dies, whether she chooses good or chooses evil, it'll be nice to finally see her storyline reach an end.

[Impressive Bosom]

Just throwing this out there in case it hasn't been seen (or hasn't been seen recently). Its a great treatise on the relative strengths of channelers, using the books as reference. One point to be made when looking at comparative strengths is that the levels are not linear - i.e. a level 20 is not twice as strong as a level 10, nor is the difference between 10 and 11 necessarily the same as the distance between 11 and 12. Still, when it comes to relative strengths, I haven't found anything better (and if anyone knows of something better please please link it).

 

Also note the date.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

Of particular interest to me was the possibility that Lanfear's originally 'accepted' power level may have been a touch exaggerated because of some item of power she always kept with her - perhaps the silver belt she always wore was an angreal for instance. Cydane's immediate assupmtion that Aliva must have an angreal to account for her power level suggests that possibility though it is of course by no means definitive.

[bronnt]

Of particular interest to me was the possibility that Lanfear's originally 'accepted' power level may have been a touch exaggerated because of some item of power she always kept with her - perhaps the silver belt she always wore was an angreal for instance. Cydane's immediate assupmtion that Aliva must have an angreal to account for her power level suggests that possibility though it is of course by no means definitive.

 

That's also the part that discredits the idea of Lanfear having had an angeal.  Women can intuitively "sense" the upper potential and strength of women that they're around.  I don't need to cite this since it happens all the time all over the place.  Men have no equivalent mechanism, so they only way for a man to know the strength of another man is to feel him drawing on saidin to his capacity.  But women can recognize any other women who can channel by feel, and even sparkers who are close to channeling.  We see tons of examples of Aes Sedai sensing the strength of other Aes Sedai while nobody is actively using the Power.

 

Citing one example where Lanfear (oops, Cyndane) didn't know the strength of Alivia prior to Alivia's channeling is not a counter-example.  Cyndane probably wasn't close enough to sense her-she wasn't even sure Alivia could channel, at first.

 

Given that women know where other women stand, Graendal's knowledge about Lanfear's relative standing has to be taken as accurate, and un-influenced by the use of angeal or any other objects.  There's absolutely no evidence of Lanfear being artificially strengthened by any means, ever.  There's no evidence she'd ever had any contact with the Finns prior to tFoH, ever.  

 

Additionally, one huge impetus behind this theory is the idea that Lanfear was never severed/burned out, largely because there's a debate about whether that could be healed, and whether the amount of strength loss was proportionately correct.  This theory fails to provide any evidence that the Finns could have "held" Lanfear, which they clearly did before she died.  We know she has a means of getting around the ter'angreal which disrupt channeling, and we know that channeling, in fact, works on the Finns.  They should have had zero means for holding a Lanfear who could channel, much less to kill her, unless she was burned out.

 

People just building decks of cards with this idea-exhale near them and they come crashing down.

[Linda]

The date is the date I originally posted the article. It has been updated since then for The Gathering Storm as is obvious from all the quotes in it.

 

Lanfear was said to have hidden the true extent of her strength as I state in the article.

 

As I discuss in another article, whatever Lanfear's strength was before she was pushed through the doorway, she stands a good chance of having been burned out when Moiraine clawed away the bracelet angreal she was drawing through. That is how the 'Finns held her. This is not discussed in the saidar article because it is not relevant to her power strength.

 

Since she was given a new body by the Dark One, she died somehow after going through the doorway.

 

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Didn't Brandon implicitly rule out the possibility that Lanfear had been burned out when he said that the Dark One could transmigrate a soul into a new body, but that that individual, if they had been burned out in the first place, would still be burned out in their new body--something which is contradicted by Cyndane being naturally as powerful as she is seen to be? Or am I misremembering?

[Nightstrike]

She could have been healed after being transmigrated. Cyndane is weaker than she used to be before the finns held her.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Ah, of course. How silly of me!

[haloun]

there are other options as well that we are not stating here, one of them IS the distinct difference between being burned out, and severed.  perhaps the issue here is that being burned out, as it is obvious happend when they went through the terangreal, allows for a better healing, also note that even siuan can open a gateway so even though she doesn stand far below where she once was, she is still very powerful.

[CUBAREY]

This theory fails to provide any evidence that the Finns could have "held" Lanfear, which they clearly did before she died

 

Actually her burning out and death could have beenalmost simultanious and having to do with her falling through the door and not her supposed captivety.

[Charlz Guybon]

This theory fails to provide any evidence that the Finns could have "held" Lanfear, which they clearly did before she died

 

Actually her burning out and death could have beenalmost simultanious and having to do with her falling through the door and not her supposed captivety.

Why wouldn't Moraine have died as well then?

[farthammer]

We know she has a means of getting around the ter'angreal which disrupt channeling, and we know that channeling, in fact, works on the Finns.  They should have had zero means for holding a Lanfear who could channel, much less to kill her, unless she was burned out.

 

Unless I mistake your meaning, why would they have had zero means for holding her if she could channel?  I can't remember specifically that channeling does work against them, but I'll assume it's true just to ask the next question.  If they are so vulnerable to just a single channeler why would they permit such easy access to their world?  Even if they aren't totally immune it makes more sense to me they have some ways to mitigate against attacks with the power.  Also it's not clear to me that they were holding her by force, or if it's just very problematic getting back out once you are in.

 

Anyways given what we've seen of the Finn perhaps Lanfear bargained her freedom out at the cost of certain aspects of her identity, or essence, or whatever mysticism they get off on.  Perhaps including  sacrificing her strength in the power and her life.  Moiraine would not be able to make such a bargain because she does not have a DO ready to shove her in a new body.

[Luckers]

Unless I mistake your meaning, why would they have had zero means for holding her if she could channel?  I can't remember specifically that channeling does work against them, but I'll assume it's true just to ask the next question.  If they are so vulnerable to just a single channeler why would they permit such easy access to their world?  Even if they aren't totally immune it makes more sense to me they have some ways to mitigate against attacks with the power.  Also it's not clear to me that they were holding her by force, or if it's just very problematic getting back out once you are in.

 

Firstly, the assuage your uncertainties, the proof that channeling does work against them comes from Rand successfully channeling against them in the Shadow Rising. The proof that they were held comes from that Cyndane directly states it. "Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!"

 

As for the rest, you misstate me in saying I said they were utterly vunerable. They are not--Moiraine states clearly they can be very dangerous, and she includes herself in that. But they cannot ignore the Power out of hand. If they could why allow Rand to create light? That is expressly forbidden under the Treaty.

 

But yes, that they can defend themselves successfully does not say they could hold two active channelers of Moiraine and Lanfear's strength and skill--much less two such women with Angreal. It doesn't even say they'd always be able to defend themselves successfully. Perhaps they lost as many fights as they won--maybe thats why a Treaty was needed in the first place. Both sides had something the other wanted, and both could defend themselves against the other to degrees.

 

You also ask a strange question--as in the why permit such access to dangerous folk? That someone is dangerous doesn't mean you don't deal with them, you just place strictures on your dealings, which is exactly what the Finn's have done. Yes, had the Aes Sedai abused this maybe the Finns would have cut off access whatever the loss to them--on the other hand your also presuming the Finns had a choice in the matter. the Doorways were ter'angreal--hence made by the Aes Sedai. Who says the Finns could close them anyway.

 

But yes, alone this point wouldn't be strong enough to suggest they were burned out. It is in additions to the other points that makes it essentialy certain the two women were in fact burned out.

 

Anyways given what we've seen of the Finn perhaps Lanfear bargained her freedom out at the cost of certain aspects of her identity, or essence, or whatever mysticism they get off on.  Perhaps including  sacrificing her strength in the power and her life.  Moiraine would not be able to make such a bargain because she does not have a DO ready to shove her in a new body.

 

It is highly unlikely the Finns would have made a bargain with either woman. Consider: despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

Cyndane appears before Moggy escapes from Salidar. Moridin already has her mind-trap when Moggy meets him.

Moggy herself escapes and is mind-trapped before Dumai's Wells.

Flinn only works out his method of healing after Dumai's Wells and he is, so far, the only man who knows how to do this.

Therefore, if Cyndane has been healed, it must have been by a woman (Moridin using TP is another candidate as healer but if we believe Elan in the EotW prologue, he wasn't a very capable healer anyhow and his TPoD PoVs suggest very strongly that he did nothing of the sort).

 

Another possibility is that Cyndi's body simply doesn't have enough mitochlorides or whatever to sustain Lanfear's level of strength. We've never seen another saidar channeler transmigrated so we don't know if this is true but the saidin channelers who have been transmigrated seem to have retained their strength.

 

Going by RJ's quotes, if she had been stilled/ burnt out, she would have to be healed if she is to channel after she is transmigrated.

(Begs the question of what exactly happened with Osan'gar since Aginor apparently burnt himself out, and was transmigrated to become Dashiva at full strength before healing was discovered)

 

Possible sequence of events

Moiraine and Lanfear fall through the Doorway scrapping and Lanfear (probably Moiraine as well) is burnt out by the shock of having the angreal clawed away.

Lanfear is held by both sets of Finns (why did they pass the parcel?)

Lanfear dies/is killed by the Finns

GloD retrieves her soul, parks it in Cyndane's body, discovers that she's stilled, and one of the BA (Dagdara or another yellow-black) is called in to heal her, Cyndane is mind-trapped and Bob's your uncle.

 

As to why Brandon was in error, well one "human explanation" is that he hasn't yet had to write a Cyndane scene and therefore, may not have thought it through or read the notes with 100% focus before that question was asked. BS has a lot on his plate and he would have focussed on the characters he had to write with higher priority. As to why it took a whole day to convince him, another possible human explanation is that he was writing/ had written a plot sequence that relied on Cyndane being weak and drawing on GLoD's extra power and he was reluctant to rewrite it.

 

 

 

 

 

[farthammer]

But yes, that they can defend themselves successfully does not say they could hold two active channelers of Moiraine and Lanfear's strength and skill--much less two such women with Angreal. It doesn't even say they'd always be able to defend themselves successfully.

 

It doesn't say that they could not hold them.  In fact we know so little about them we don't even know how likely or unlikely that would be.  You arguments depend on them not being able to without explaining why that is the case.

 

You also ask a strange question--as in the why permit such access to dangerous folk? That someone is dangerous doesn't mean you don't deal with them, you just place strictures on your dealings, which is exactly what the Finn's have done.

 

They'd still have to enforce these rules.  Or it'd just be 'hey Moiraine walk in this door, they'll give you what you want, agree to whatever price they make and simply leave before they can collect'.

 

It is highly unlikely the Finns would have made a bargain with either woman.

 

Don't know enough about the to make this claim.  Why is it unlikely let alone highly unlikely?  The rest of your paragraph goes on with interpretations which may or may not be true at all.

 

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes

 

I didn't say they were given wishes.  The opportunity for trade exists so long as everyone has something the other party wants.  The only absurdity is your theory rests upon information we do not yet know one way or another.

 

[Lacanos]

 

Matt: So, we will understand then in the next book or so why there is a decrease in power but not a significant decrease?

 

Brandon: Yes.

 

This is probably one of the most important things in the OP - surely he's confirming she's Lanfear - there's been a decrease in power...from what?

[Luckers]

Going by RJ's quotes, if she had been stilled/ burnt out, she would have to be healed if she is to channel after she is transmigrated.

 

Indeed, though that was provided by Maria. From RJ's notes, though.

 

(Begs the question of what exactly happened with Osan'gar since Aginor apparently burnt himself out, and was transmigrated to become Dashiva at full strength before healing was discovered)

 

Well, drawing too much of the Power isn't ever stated to always burn you out. In each citation of the risks they list it as that it will either kill you, or burn you out. Seperate threats. In this case Aginor clearly killed himself before burning himself out.

 

It doesn't say that they could not hold them.  In fact we know so little about them we don't even know how likely or unlikely that would be.  You arguments depend on them not being able to without explaining why that is the case.

 

Rand was creating light, one of the things they specifically forbid--yet they could not hold or contain him.

 

They'd still have to enforce these rules.  Or it'd just be 'hey Moiraine walk in this door, they'll give you what you want, agree to whatever price they make and simply leave before they can collect'.

 

You are disengenously suggesting that I did not cover this. I did. In detail.

 

Don't know enough about the to make this claim.  Why is it unlikely let alone highly unlikely?  The rest of your paragraph goes on with interpretations which may or may not be true at all.

 

That is an interesting argument you make. I would be intrigued to have you expand upon it with details.

 

In the mean time here is why it is highly unlikely: despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

 

Or, put another way--if you don't have anything to say....

 

I didn't say they were given wishes.  The opportunity for trade exists so long as everyone has something the other party wants.  The only absurdity is your theory rests upon information we do not yet know one way or another.

 

Indeed, my theory involves the suggestion of things we do not know for fact. It also involves arguments on why these points should be considered as possible facts. That is, in point of fact, what a theory is. A suggestion based on logic and evidence to answer an unknown. If you care to address the arguments I've used to suggest my theoretical explanation of these issues, feel free--but dismissing a theory because it is a theory is quite odd.

[Lacanos]

Going by RJ's quotes, if she had been stilled/ burnt out, she would have to be healed if she is to channel after she is transmigrated.

 

Indeed, though that was provided by Maria. From RJ's notes, though.

 

(Begs the question of what exactly happened with Osan'gar since Aginor apparently burnt himself out, and was transmigrated to become Dashiva at full strength before healing was discovered)

 

Well, drawing too much of the Power isn't ever stated to always burn you out. In each citation of the risks they list it as that it will either kill you, or burn you out. Seperate threats. In this case Aginor clearly killed himself before burning himself out.

 

It doesn't say that they could not hold them.  In fact we know so little about them we don't even know how likely or unlikely that would be.  You arguments depend on them not being able to without explaining why that is the case.

 

Rand was creating light, one of the things they specifically forbid--yet they could not hold or contain him.

 

They'd still have to enforce these rules.  Or it'd just be 'hey Moiraine walk in this door, they'll give you what you want, agree to whatever price they make and simply leave before they can collect'.

 

You are disengenously suggesting that I did not cover this. I did. In detail.

 

Don't know enough about the to make this claim.  Why is it unlikely let alone highly unlikely?  The rest of your paragraph goes on with interpretations which may or may not be true at all.

 

That is an interesting argument you make. I would be intrigued to have you expand upon it with details.

 

In the mean time here is why it is highly unlikely: despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

 

Or, put another way--if you don't have anything to say....

 

I didn't say they were given wishes.  The opportunity for trade exists so long as everyone has something the other party wants.  The only absurdity is your theory rests upon information we do not yet know one way or another.

 

Indeed, my theory involves the suggestion of things we do not know for fact. It also involves arguments on why these points whould be considered as possible facts. That is, in point of fact, what a theory is. A suggestion based on logic and evidence to answer an unknown. If you care to address the arguments I've used to suggest my theoretical explanation of these issues, feel free--but dismissing a theory because it is a theory is quite odd.

The Finns are likely as not pretty neutral, you can't extrapolate their hostility to the Shadow from the effects of questions touching on it. There could be some reason beyond dislike that they can have adverse effects

[farthammer]

...but dismissing a theory because it is a theory is quite odd.

 

I wasn't and I'm not sure why you think that is the case.  I simply asked you some questions because I wasn't sure how I could make your theory work without relying on speculation, since we do not know much about the Finns at all.  This doesn't make your theory wrong but there are simply too many possibilities, too many unknowns to call yours the most likely explanation.

[bobothebarbarian]

I think the level of power returned has to do with the healing.

 

Nynaeve heals Logain -> full power

Nynaeve heals Siuan and Leane -> partial

Flynn heals stilled sisters -> full power

 

So if the opposite power is used to heal stilling then the full strength is returned.  What does the DO have access to?  The True Power.  While the True Power is stronger than either of Saidin or Saidar individually, the two combined are stronger than the True Power.

 

So the DO "healed" Lanfear from being stilled, but it is not an opposite to either power therefore it does not work as well.

that sounds plausible to me. but it seams to me that there might be a difference from being burned out or stilled. if one is burned out then healed they lose some strength but not to much. if one is stilled then healed they lose more strength. it also seams like something like that {if not actually stated in the notes} would be a hard sell with many sources needing to be cited 

[bobothebarbarian]

Indeed, my theory involves the suggestion of things we do not know for fact. It also involves arguments on why these points whould be considered as possible facts. That is, in point of fact, what a theory is. A suggestion based on logic and evidence to answer an unknown. If you care to address the arguments I've used to suggest my theoretical explanation of these issues, feel free--but dismissing a theory because it is a theory is quite odd.

;D I just have to say that is the most brilliant response I have ever seen.  I Love it and love all your theorys

[Lacanos]

 

 

Indeed, my theory involves the suggestion of things we do not know for fact. It also involves arguments on why these points whould be considered as possible facts. That is, in point of fact, what a theory is. A suggestion based on logic and evidence to answer an unknown. If you care to address the arguments I've used to suggest my theoretical explanation of these issues, feel free--but dismissing a theory because it is a theory is quite odd.

 

Exactly. A theory needs evidence, not speculation.

[Luckers]

A theory contains both by nature. Now let me know if you wish to actually start discussing my arguments.

[Dida]

A theory contains both by nature. Now let me know if you wish to actually start discussing my arguments.

 

My take is Brandon knows that Lanfear is returning from the Tower of Ghenjei, and that this whole debate about Cyndane's strength is misguided.

 

  Foretellings, Prophecy, and Mat's own thoughts support Lanfear returning.

[Duskfire]

Well, Lews Therin certainly gets around then. Two female characters who would be prepared to fight the DO with him as well as both being held by the Finns. Its true, there's no way that Lanfear can be Cyndane.