A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[WWWwombat]

Assuming Mesaana can spin reversed webs there are myriad ways I can think of of making the Oath Rod ineffective.  I don't know how many of them would work, but it seems to me I'm on the wrong track.  Usually when RJ hinted he hinted kinda hard.  I'd assume the same would go for this hint from BS.  I feel like I'm missing something, which frustrates me because I was able to see a lot of other stuff coming.  For some reason I keep thinking of how the Oath Rod only uses spirit and how that is the only element you can channel when you are asleep, but I'm getting nowhere with that.  I guess the main problem is we really don't know much about how binders work.

[water_seeker]

If there's a way around the OR and Messy knows how to do it, I'd have to wonder why Semi was so scared of being bound in the AOL.

 

Either:

 

a) Semi didn't know there was a way to circumvent the binding (which I see as unlikely, but not impossible),

b) Since we know that there are more than one rod, they must be used in conjuction to secure a full binding, or

c) Something I haven't thought of (obviously...).

 

(At this point there is a lot of rambling going on in my head...so plz forgive me)

Now if "b" is correct, why haven't we seen someone circumvent the 3 oaths yet?  My answer...I haven't a clue.

 

I wanted to rule out inverted weaves because they wouldn't have worked in the AOL, but then I realized that they probably aren't slashing Spirit at ppl in order to cut any weaves they may not see when they go to take the oaths.

 

I had more to say, but I can't remember it all...maybe someone will say something that'll bring it back.

[Taura-Tierno]

If there's a way around the OR and Messy knows how to do it, I'd have to wonder why Semi was so scared of being bound in the AOL.

 

Either:

 

a) Semi didn't know there was a way to circumvent the binding (which I see as unlikely, but not impossible),

b) Since we know that there are more than one rod, they must be used in conjuction to secure a full binding, or

c) Something I haven't thought of (obviously...).

 

(At this point there is a lot of rambling going on in my head...so plz forgive me)

Now if "b" is correct, why haven't we seen someone circumvent the 3 oaths yet?  My answer...I haven't a clue.

 

I wanted to rule out inverted weaves because they wouldn't have worked in the AOL, but then I realized that they probably aren't slashing Spirit at ppl in order to cut any weaves they may not see when they go to take the oaths.

 

I had more to say, but I can't remember it all...maybe someone will say something that'll bring it back.

 

Mesaana only has to get around the "no lies" part. Then she can presumably remove the Oaths, either in TAR or by stealing the OR. Had Semirhage been bound, she would have been bound against causing pain, which is something she enjoyed greatly. There's no way around that. And there would also have been no way around a shorter lifetime for Semi, since she'd be bound for life.

 

The way I see it, Mesaana didn't circumvent the binding as such - either she escaped by saying something like "I'm not Black Ajah", which is true, or she didn't swear at all (compelling another sister to do it, or taking over another sister's life once she had sworn).

[WWWwombat]

The problem with that is that Brandon seems to be hinting that Mesaana actually beat the Oath Rod.  Also, it could be that the AoL Aes Sedai knew of whatever method Mesaana used to get around the Oath Rod and would have been watching for it if they bound Semirhage.

[Taura-Tierno]

But that depends on what you mean by "beat", doesn't it? Could be that she knows how to avoid actually swearing on it, but that seems kind of cheap to me. Would be much more fun if she had to actually use her brains a little, and not just rely on her superior knowledge of AoL artefacts.

[Sharaman]

Speaking personally, I'd like a method, which can be worked out by pure logic on the part of readers, rather than some solution driven by a gizmo weave or angle, we don't know anything about.

But of course, YMMV.

 

[yoniy0]

Speaking personally, I'd like a method, which can be worked out by pure logic on the part of readers, rather than some solution driven by a gizmo weave or angle, we don't know anything about.

But of course, YMMV.

Exactly. That's why I never understood why some people don't like the "not a Darkfriend" theory, or its little brother, the more-trivial "not BA" theory.

[thewalrus777]

Speaking personally, I'd like a method, which can be worked out by pure logic on the part of readers, rather than some solution driven by a gizmo weave or angle, we don't know anything about.

But of course, YMMV.

Exactly. That's why I never understood why some people don't like the "not a Darkfriend" theory, or its little brother, the more-trivial "not BA" theory.

 

True. If she doesn't believe herself to be a DF or a member of the BA then really doesn't have anything to worry about regarding the OR. It just makes sense. The Forsaken see the BA and DF as lesser creatures than themselves.

[BladeDancer]

Speaking personally, I'd like a method, which can be worked out by pure logic on the part of readers, rather than some solution driven by a gizmo weave or angle, we don't know anything about.

But of course, YMMV.

 

 

I disagree. There is no logical way to beat the Oath Rod. If Mesaana swore on the Oath Rod - then she cannot tell a lie. If she escaped exposure initially then this means that the third Oath did not expose her only though some pedantry in the wording of the 3rd Oath which is lame. It also means she only escaped detection because Egwene asked the wrong question which is even lamer. If Mesaana is still bound to tell the truth then she will have to reveal herself if the right question was posed - ie Do you serve the Shadow? Do you think the Dark One is a complete knobhead?  :P

 

Much better if there was some sort of knowledge of binders/inverted weaves/compulsed witnesses used or simply Mesaana being hidden during the initial reswearing. That would impress me more then beating the Oath Rod through some dubiously lame internal logic about self-proclaimed titles and ego-driven self-labelling, which is how I regard the 'I am no Darkfriend because I am Chosen and special' theory.

[thewalrus777]

Speaking personally, I'd like a method, which can be worked out by pure logic on the part of readers, rather than some solution driven by a gizmo weave or angle, we don't know anything about.

But of course, YMMV.

 

 

I disagree. There is no logical way to beat the Oath Rod. If Mesaana swore on the Oath Rod - then she cannot tell a lie. If she escaped exposure initially then this means that the third Oath did not expose her only though some pedantry in the wording of the 3rd Oath which is lame. It also means she only escaped detection because Egwene asked the wrong question which is even lamer. If Mesaana is still bound to tell the truth then she will have to reveal herself if the right question was posed - ie Do you serve the Shadow? Do you think the Dark One is a complete knobhead?  :P

 

Much better if there was some sort of knowledge of binders/inverted weaves/compulsed witnesses used or simply Mesaana being hidden during the initial reswearing. That would impress me more then beating the Oath Rod through some dubiously lame internal logic about self-proclaimed titles and ego-driven self-labelling, which is how I regard the 'I am no Darkfriend because I am Chosen and special' theory.

 

But see that's just it. Egwene can't ask the question that needs to be asked to ferret out Mesaana. She cannot let it get out that one of the Forsaken is hiding in the WT. It would only bring ruin to the Aes Sedai clan and their credibility. And plus, she is first and foremost taking care of the problem she has direct knowledge of, rooting out the BA. And it seems to me if Aes Sedai can circumvent the 3 Oaths, then a Forsaken surely could. Especially if the questions the Aes Sedai have been asking only refer to being a DF or of the BA. Seeing as the Forsaken see themselves as nothing but the Chosen.

[Sharaman]

Sanderson's quote: "As long as she believed it to be true (she could swear she was not a Darkfriend). Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it."

This reinforces my hope that there is a logical way to do it that readers have enough info to work out.

 

 

[lbeefus]

I'll bet (but don't know for sure) you could beat the Oath rod if you were wearing a ter'angreal like Mat's Foxhead medallion.

 

First, lets go over how the Oath Rod works:

1) The swearer must be a channeler, and must hold the Oath Rod

2) The swearer (or somebody else?) channels spirit into one end.  Any same-gendered channelers in the room would be able to verify this.

3) The swearer makes the Oath, using wording which is presumably listened to very carefully by the others.

4) At this point, the Oath Rod performs some change on the holder.

 

We've talked a lot about getting around #2 and #3, but what about getting around #4?  I'm making an assumption that I can't prove that the Oath Rod uses the one power on the swearer.  If the holder was wearing a ter'angreal, or otherwise protected from the effects of channeling, wouldn't they be safe?  Plus, the physical effects of the Oaths are not immediately obvious, so nobody would notice that the oath didn't "land".

[Sharaman]

I'll bet (but don't know for sure) you could beat the Oath rod if you were wearing a ter'angreal like Mat's Foxhead medallion.

 

First, lets go over how the Oath Rod works:

1) The swearer must be a channeler, and must hold the Oath Rod

2) The swearer (or somebody else?) channels spirit into one end.  Any same-gendered channelers in the room would be able to verify this.

3) The swearer makes the Oath, using wording which is presumably listened to very carefully by the others.

4) At this point, the Oath Rod performs some change on the holder.

 

We've talked a lot about getting around #2 and #3, but what about getting around #4?  I'm making an assumption that I can't prove that the Oath Rod uses the one power on the swearer.  If the holder was wearing a ter'angreal, or otherwise protected from the effects of channeling, wouldn't they be safe?  Plus, the physical effects of the Oaths are not immediately obvious, so nobody would notice that the oath didn't "land".

 

 

Problem: Mat's ter'angreal breaks up flows in a way that siadar-channelers (or saidin) can see. That's why it evokes complete amazement from any channeller who first sees it. References : Moiraine, the wondergirls, Elayne when talking about gholam, Anan, Tuon, etc.

So everyone would know that the spirit flow hadn't worked.

 

 

[BladeDancer]

Speaking personally, I'd like a method, which can be worked out by pure logic on the part of readers, rather than some solution driven by a gizmo weave or angle, we don't know anything about.

But of course, YMMV.

 

 

I disagree. There is no logical way to beat the Oath Rod. If Mesaana swore on the Oath Rod - then she cannot tell a lie. If she escaped exposure initially then this means that the third Oath did not expose her only though some pedantry in the wording of the 3rd Oath which is lame. It also means she only escaped detection because Egwene asked the wrong question which is even lamer. If Mesaana is still bound to tell the truth then she will have to reveal herself if the right question was posed - ie Do you serve the Shadow? Do you think the Dark One is a complete knobhead?  :P

 

Much better if there was some sort of knowledge of binders/inverted weaves/compulsed witnesses used or simply Mesaana being hidden during the initial reswearing. That would impress me more then beating the Oath Rod through some dubiously lame internal logic about self-proclaimed titles and ego-driven self-labelling, which is how I regard the 'I am no Darkfriend because I am Chosen and special' theory.

 

But see that's just it. Egwene can't ask the question that needs to be asked to ferret out Mesaana. She cannot let it get out that one of the Forsaken is hiding in the WT. It would only bring ruin to the Aes Sedai clan and their credibility. And plus, she is first and foremost taking care of the problem she has direct knowledge of, rooting out the BA. And it seems to me if Aes Sedai can circumvent the 3 Oaths, then a Forsaken surely could. Especially if the questions the Aes Sedai have been asking only refer to being a DF or of the BA. Seeing as the Forsaken see themselves as nothing but the Chosen.

 

Of course Egwene can ask the question to ferret out Mesaana. She has already made drastic decisions based on Verin's intel and this subsequently has been verified. So she should assume Verin is correct about Mesaana. So she could just make everyone reswear the 3 Oaths and then ask them to declare that they Oppose the Shadow and Walk in the Light. If she is bound to tell the truth from the first Oath then Mesaana has to answer no. If Egwene cannot think of that question which will incriminate Forsaken, Shadowspawn, Black Ajah and Darkfriend then that is very weak writing imo because it is so stupid. Just after her moment of ascension to Amyrlin of all Aes Sedai, Egwene has great power and influence - she has just fought off the Seanchan and purged her encampment of Black Ajah. Both sides love her. No Aes Sedai would or could object if Egwene specifically asked everyone to make that Declaration of opposing the Shadow in public. If Mesaana gets through the reswearing because Egwene asked the wrong question (and it appears Mesaana did get through) then Egwene needs to get everyone together again and just get everyone to answer the right question.

[yoniy0]

It's not weak writing. We had the advantage of hearing the thoughts and conversations of a few Forsaken, and Darkfriends in general. Egwene will probably notice that Mesaana really isn't BA, and hence ask people to declare they're not Darkfriends, but to see that a Forsaken can state that with complete sincerity requires an insight we just can't expect of Egwene. At least, we have no basis for being disappointed if she doesn't.

[lbeefus]

Problem: Mat's ter'angreal breaks up flows in a way that siadar-channelers (or saidin) can see. That's why it evokes complete amazement from any channeller who first sees it. References : Moiraine, the wondergirls, Elayne when talking about gholam, Anan, Tuon, etc.

So everyone would know that the spirit flow hadn't worked.

 

Yeah, I thought about that... but there's never a mention of any weave more than the spirit being channeled into the Oath Rod. There's no mention of whether or not there's a weave that then touches the swearer.  If there is, the problem you mention would negate this solution.  If there's not, its unclear how obvious it would be.

 

A second solution occurred to me: even if Mess. hasn't been keeping the impersonated Aes Sedai alive, she could put the mirror mask on any Aes Sedai, and use compulsion to have them ignore it, take the oath without saying more, etc.  But that would be risky, and seems too complicated to be a viable solution.

[MrMatrim]

What about something like a very, very thin inverted weave of Air surrounding her hand when she swore?  I would think that no actual contact with her hand would mean that while she said the Oaths, they were not binding.  She could then lie like a Taren Ferry woman :)

[BladeDancer]

It's not weak writing. We had the advantage of hearing the thoughts and conversations of a few Forsaken, and Darkfriends in general. Egwene will probably notice that Mesaana really isn't BA, and hence ask people to declare they're not Darkfriends, but to see that a Forsaken can state that with complete sincerity requires an insight we just can't expect of Egwene. At least, we have no basis for being disappointed if she doesn't.

 

Egwene has in her possession the most complete and detailed explanation of the Black Ajah and the entire Darkfriend organisation ever written down. It is obviously written in that book in great detail exactly what the specific differences are in classification between Black Ajah, Dark Friends and Forsaken. With this book there is no excuse for Egwene asking the wrong question in searching for Mesaana. It would be a complete cop out if Egwene was unable to ask each reswearing Sisters whether they were Forsaken or even specifically Mesaana. She has reliable intel that Mesaana is impersonating an Aes Sedai in the White Tower - she has rebound ever Sister to always speak the truth - so she could ask every Sister any of the following questions and ask for a Yes or No response:

 

1 Are you Mesaana?

2 Are you a Forsaken?

3 Do you serve the Dark One?

4 Have you ever been to Shayol Ghul?

5 Were you alive before the Trolloc Wars?

6 Did you live in the Age of Legends?

7 Are you impersonating an Aes Sedai?

8 Are you supporting the Shadow during the Last Battle?

9 Did you ever meet Lanfear?

10 Do you remember a time before Tar Valon was built/before Dragonmount was around/before Callandor was placed in the Stone of Tear/when the Aiel were pacifist?

 

If any of those answers are Yes then you've found Mesaana. If Egwene lacks the wit to ask one of these questions or numerous equivalent ones then it is poor plot development as it would paint Egwene as being a complete moron when dealing with this situation. The Aes Sedai might be worried and dismayed by the revelation that Mesaana is probably hidden in the Tower and posing as an Aes Sedai but so what? All the Sisters know the Black Ajah exists, the Dragon is Reborn and the Last Battle is coming. It is no time to stick their heads in the sand. The Aes Sedai have to know that the Forsaken are real and are free. They have enough direct proof in the form of reliable testimony. Even if they would disbelieve the Dragon Reborn's account when he talks about fighting Rahvin and Sammael, there are other Aes Sedai that bear witness to the Forsaken being around. Egwene herself has been attacked by Lanfear and has encountered Moghedian, Aginor and Balthamel. Nyneave has fought Moghedian and Rahvin. Cadsuane plus some other Aes Sedai have met Semirhage. All true accounts that would be made by respected Aes Sedai who are bound to tell no lie. There is simply nothing to stop Egwene from using the Oath Rod and performing a Mesaana purge.

 

If Mesaana was absent for the reswearing or has some method of nullifying the Oath Rod then she could avoid detection. If she is still at large and in the Tower because Egwene asked the wrong question in the reswearing (ie. Are you Black Ajah?) and then neglected to ask any of the right questions (like the ones listed above) ever is frankly pretty lame imo.

[Durinax]

I would think that Mesaana would have retreated deep into the basements of the tower until after everone inside the tower was made to reswear, from what we have seen they have not been keeping close accounts over who has resworn so Mesaana could have gone into the basements for a couple of days and then emerged from the basement once all the excitement was over

[ed2funy]

We really saw nothing of the reswearing, but I am sure they had everyone do it.

 

If they see the AS she is masquerading as a few days later, they will question her and make her reswear.

 

The Tower is known to keep track of things. I am sure that is so hard.

[nophone]

We really saw nothing of the reswearing, but I am sure they had everyone do it.

 

If they see the AS she is masquerading as a few days later, they will question her and make her reswear.

 

The Tower is known to keep track of things. I am sure that is so hard.

 

the assumption being that everyone re took them the same way that Egwene took them.

[saidarisnowtainted]

perhaps the dream terangreal will help her beat the oath rod.  couldnt she swear in TAR on an oath rod that anything she swears on the other rod will not be binding or something?

[yoniy0]

Egwene has in her possession the most complete and detailed explanation of the Black Ajah and the entire Darkfriend organisation ever written down. It is obviously written in that book in great detail exactly what the specific differences are in classification between Black Ajah, Dark Friends and Forsaken. With this book there is no excuse for Egwene asking the wrong question in searching for Mesaana.

You're missing my point. You have to think like a third-ager, not an omniscient reader. For them, Verin included, Darkfriend is just what you call someone who's loyal to the Shadow. The only way to find out otherwise, that it's an organization Ishamael founded after the Breaking, is to have a conversation with one of them about that, or overhear a conversation between two of them, neither of which it's likely even Verin was in a position to do.

 

perhaps the dream terangreal will help her beat the oath rod.  couldnt she swear in TAR on an oath rod that anything she swears on the other rod will not be binding or something?

Then she would die of suffocation, like we almost saw Meidani die, when two Oaths collided in her.

[Casabamelon]

It was a big deal to force every AS to reswear the oaths. If she were to do it again, she would have to admit there is a FORSAKEN in the White Tower. IMHO, this would cause panic and flight from the tower. She had one shot, and she had to take it under very short notice. Her goal was to catch the BA, not sift for a Forsaken. Yes, she could have done both in the same shot, if she had thought of it. Again, short notice.

 

Also, she can't just go asking questions without reswearing the oaths, because Messana could have had the oaths removed, and then there's no way to know for sure if the person she's talking to was REALLY bound to the oaths.

 

And, word would get out REALLY fast on what she was doing, at that would cause the (IMHO) panic/flight anyway.

[yoniy0]

If she were to do it again, she would have to admit there is a FORSAKEN in the White Tower. IMHO, this would cause panic and flight from the tower.

Give them some credit, will you? They are still Aes Sedai. When Romanda suspected a Forsaken within their midst, what did they do? Run away? Or immediately started searching for her?

And however fast the fact of Mesaana's presence will become general knowledge in the Tower, it won't leak out. No AS would discuss that with an outsider.