A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[hchinaski]

So, I haven't read all 30 pages of posts so I hope someone brought this up.  Mesaana either couldn't have been there or she must have had them removed immediately.  The whole "I'm not a darkfriend, I'm Chosen"  or just believing one isn't a darkfriend does nothing for the other two oaths.  She would still be bound to make no weapons (not a big deal) or harm anyone with the power other than agents of the shadow (kind of a bigger deal).

[Shadow Rider]

So, I haven't read all 30 pages of posts so I hope someone brought this up.  Mesaana either couldn't have been there or she must have had them removed immediately.  The whole "I'm not a darkfriend, I'm Chosen"  or just believing one isn't a darkfriend does nothing for the other two oaths.  She would still be bound to make no weapons (not a big deal) or harm anyone with the power other than agents of the shadow (kind of a bigger deal).

 

Maybe her Oath to the DO is strong enough to over power the Oath Rod.

[MikeRiley]

The oath she took to the Dark One isn't binding in the same way. That's why the male forsaken nearly crapped their pants when one of the female ones brought up the Dark One's lack of trust in them all, when they find out Rand's going to try to cleanse Saidin. With Saidin clean, the threat of going mad is removed and they would be trusted even less. But even if it was just as binding - done the same way that the Black Ajah does theirs - she would find herself being strangled until they could remove the oaths for her, much the same way we see the Black Ajah sister that got caught in a previous book. Conflicting oaths don't overpower each other.

 

Mesaana would not, under any circumstances, put herself into a position where she has to swear any of the three oaths. She would have fled the tower first and started laying new plans. By now she'll have escape routes made possible and groundwork laid elsewhere. For her to take those oaths would be a very serious risk to her survival until the time when she could have them removed. Rand wants her dead. The other forsaken want her dead. The Aes Sedai want her dead. Probably all the Black Ajah wants her dead. If we learn she took the oaths I'll just assume she wasn't really a forsaken because none of them would be that stupid.

[Tom Sawyer]

If we learn she took the oaths I'll just assume she wasn't really a forsaken because none of them would be that stupid.

 

Or that she'd figured out a way to beat their tests until she could have the oaths removed.  I think that the Forsaken not considering themselves Darkfriends gives her this.  Like Asmodean said to Rand, "If they believe something to be true, they can say it whether or not it is actually true.  One of a thousand problems with those fool Oaths".  The Forsaken don't appear to think much of the strength of the binding - not in terms of how it binds people, but in the gaping holes the Oaths (the first oath particularly) leave.

 

I don't think they'd have put in all this build up to her hiding somewhere in the Tower to just have her leave the Tower before anyone finds her and then maybe mention that she was this girl Sally who was mentioned in passing once back in book six.  They're going to have to do a bit with Egwene discovering who she is and how she's managed to remain in the Tower despite everyone being resworn.

 

[Aagaard]

Plus I don't think she would want to return to Shaidar Haran or Moridin to tell them that she failed once again, and we have the clue from BS that Eggwene is not wrong in her assumptions when she thinks that Mesaana is still in the tower posing as an AS

[morkhon]

Do the True Power and the One Power cancel each other out? Is that what happened when Rand's and Moridin's balefires collided? So would her channeling the True Power into the Oath Road during the ceremony cancel out the effects from the One Power binding?

[Sharaman]

Do the True Power and the One Power cancel each other out? Is that what happened when Rand's and Moridin's balefires collided? So would her channeling the True Power into the Oath Road during the ceremony cancel out the effects from the One Power binding?

 

There would be AS watching to see an OP thread of spirit, or somebody else channeling the spirit. 

Plus GLoD has cut off everyone except Moridin (and Rand) from the TP. Messi doesn't have permission to channel TP so, moot point.

 

[Crael123]

i doubt messi ever did. she always been the forsaken everybody laughed at

[Demiandre]

Remember what Verin said to Egwene in her room before she died. She said she didn't found the Oath Rod which has been taken away by Seaine and BA hunters. Verin says : Oaths to the Great Lords are quite specific and can be quite binding when made by a channelers. She also doubt that she could have managed to remove her Oaths with the OR. That shows that Oaths to the DO aren't quite the same as the one made with the rod. They could probablyv negate the OR Oaths. And I agree with the fact that Forsaken don't see themselves as Darkfriends.

[OptimusPrime]

We have seen Black Aes Sedai have the Oaths removed with an Oath Rod and then be able to say they are from the Black Ajah. I dont think the Oaths to the Dark One are important here, unless Verin took different Oaths or was wrong. Im thinking she was wrong, that she would have been freed with a normal Oath Rod.

[Demiandre]

We have seen Black Aes Sedai have the Oaths removed with an Oath Rod and then be able to say they are from the Black Ajah. I dont think the Oaths to the Dark One are important here, unless Verin took different Oaths or was wrong. Im thinking she was wrong, that she would have been freed with a normal Oath Rod.

 

I think she did tool different Oaths. By curiosity (like Sheriam I suppose)she stepped into a cluster of BA sisters and had to take the oaths. If I was the BA, I would make sure the Oaths she makes won't be broken to protect myself (which by oath they have to do, why not?)And what about a circle of 13 Myrdraal and 13 BA, which we keep hearing about (learning from Sheriam herself)? Both of them could have been turned to the Shadow by this way and made swearing Oaths in Shayol Ghul, creeping into them and unbreakable. (Yes, I know it's unlikely, but Verin and Sheriam dead, we will never know)

[Aquarius]

Talene began her confession by actually not confessing at all fut "I forwsear all Oaths that bind me" and it seems it has caused her a lot of pain.

 

So no the OR is not what matters here. It's beeing a Forsaken.

[Sharaman]

Talene began her confession by actually not confessing at all fut "I forwsear all Oaths that bind me" and it seems it has caused her a lot of pain.

 

So no the OR is not what matters here. It's beeing a Forsaken.

 

Or it's just possible that a Chosen knows more about the Oath Rod and how its works, than a random BA member.

 

[chuckievi]

A Chosen scholar I might add, not just some random channeler.

[marinemonk]

Isn't there a number on the oath rod? At least the one the shaido got a hold of. What if it gives one rod priority over another.

[Shadow Rider]

I don't know if the oaths the BA give and the oaths The Chosen give are the same, like the darkfriends oath is different to the BA.

 

I would think they are different, and the oaths the Chosen give could be even more binding than the BA oaths....

And could override the oath rod...

 

I know I keep saying this but I think I read somewhere one of the Chosen was suprised that they used it as an oath rod....

 

What was it originaly used for?

[MikeRiley]

They were called binding rods and were used to on criminals in the Age of Legends.

 

The oaths the forsaken took to the Dark One are likely binding in that he has a link to them now, but they could go against his will. Lanfear did it quite well for a while. They weren't of the same nature as the oath rod's oaths. It has to do with the Chosen Mark they receive.

[Dreamwalker]

I don't know if the oaths the BA give and the oaths The Chosen give are the same, like the darkfriends oath is different to the BA.

 

I would think they are different, and the oaths the Chosen give could be even more binding than the BA oaths....

And could override the oath rod...

 

I know I keep saying this but I think I read somewhere one of the Chosen was suprised that they used it as an oath rod....

 

What was it originaly used for?

 

To elaborate on MikeRiley's response:

The binder was originally used to keep dangerous criminals from being able to keep doing their crime or hurting people. For example, Semirhage was slated to be bound against torture for the protection of those around her (which is part of why she went to the DO). If someone was a serial killer (one that could channel for the rod to work of course) you could bind them against killing. Things like that. It makes sense that they might want to do something like this specifically for criminals who could channel because channelers (especially powerful ones) are hard to imprison and control - unless you sever them, you have to keep them shielded at all times or they could wreak havoc and escape. So this was something they could do that was much less severe than actually severing someone (which is pretty much a death sentence most of the time) but would still protect society from that person. It makes a lot of sense for a pretty utopian society like they had in the AoL.

[Durinax]

since the rod can put on and take off oaths, it makes sense you would have to channel differently or into different parts of the rod, if Mesaana knows this she could simple have inverted a weave and made it so that the was just saying oaths like words with no effect

[mb]

Earlier I speculated that non-Blacks would be watching each person.

It seems most likely that those were the ones that did the channeling.

 

[ravenfier]

dont know if this has been mentioned or not but, what if she had the person she was pretending to be alive but in a vacule/stacis box and relsed her under compultion? She would have then just stayed in the shadows working her compultion and had evaded taking the oaths.

 

 

sorry for any and all misspellings

[Sharaman]

Yes it's been mentioned. Could work if she's kept the real AS alive and the real AS is not BA/ DF.

But it doesn't necessarily "beat the OR". 

[StefanR]

So I was thinking about this a couple minutes ago, and had a possible "ah ha" moment. This all depends on whether or not the oath rod found more BA due to people admitting it after taking oaths.

 

 

 

 

First off, we know that when Verin came to Egwene to tell-all about the BA's secrets/members/etc that she was looking for the oath rod but couldn't find it. Egwene assumes that the BA hunters in the tower have it.

 

Secondly, we know from the end of TGS that Mesanna is in the tower.

 

Now for my theory.

 

AS know what the oath rod does, how it makes them unable to lie. Because they've all been bound by the oath rod for so long, they would have learned to bend the truth without outright lying.

 

BA sisters are more accustomed to lying.

 

Verin couldn't find the oath rod because Mesanna took it.

 

Mesanna took the oath rod to modify it. Made it so that although you have the tingly/tighter skin feeling, the binding doesn't actually work.

 

Therefore, the BA, who would be accustomed to lying when they saw fit, would be able to. The real AS would believe they had been bound again and wouldn't bother lying, they'd just keep bending the truth.

 

Mesanna would be able to beat the oath rod, and it would allow the BA to lie/escape being caught as BA by the real AS.

 

[Durinax]

I think it would be much simpler for Mesaana to use a hidden weave and put another flow of spirit to cause the oath rod to both apply an oath and take it off at the same time so to speak.

 

I think thats the way to beat it. Use two flows of spirit so that the oath rod is conflicting with itself thus it would be disabled while everyone thought it was working

 

thats the fundamental flaw with the oath rod it can be used to both enforce oaths and to remove them, with a very simple weave of spirit. Thus overloading the Oath Rod is easy to accomplish, especially if the person who is taking the oaths is allowed to hold onto saidar.

[chuckievi]

So I was thinking about this a couple minutes ago, and had a possible "ah ha" moment. This all depends on whether or not the oath rod found more BA due to people admitting it after taking oaths.

 

 

 

 

First off, we know that when Verin came to Egwene to tell-all about the BA's secrets/members/etc that she was looking for the oath rod but couldn't find it. Egwene assumes that the BA hunters in the tower have it.

 

Secondly, we know from the end of TGS that Mesanna is in the tower.

 

Now for my theory.

 

AS know what the oath rod does, how it makes them unable to lie. Because they've all been bound by the oath rod for so long, they would have learned to bend the truth without outright lying.

 

BA sisters are more accustomed to lying.

 

Verin couldn't find the oath rod because Mesanna took it.

 

Mesanna took the oath rod to modify it. Made it so that although you have the tingly/tighter skin feeling, the binding doesn't actually work.

 

Therefore, the BA, who would be accustomed to lying when they saw fit, would be able to. The real AS would believe they had been bound again and wouldn't bother lying, they'd just keep bending the truth.

 

Mesanna would be able to beat the oath rod, and it would allow the BA to lie/escape being caught as BA by the real AS.

 

 

I am pretty sure the BA hunters had it and not Mesanna though.  I don't think that Brandon was referring to modifying the oath rod with his statement, but instead a process/way to bypass/beat it's system as it currently stands.