Moraine and The Tower of Ghenjei

[ed2funy]

Could it be a Cyndane type thing?

Cyndane is for all intents and purposes Lanfear, no?

Maybe Moiraine has a new body? Maybe Moiraine is dead, but we will see a nice new Alys?

[Saguin Venart]

I think Moiraine's alive and Noal, Thom, and Mat will be Ghenjei-ing it up in book 13.

 

Also Taim is good

Logain is evil

and Bela is the creator disguise.

 

[mhael784]

It is revealed in the books that Mazrim Taim sent the darkfiend Asha'man against Rand in the Sun Palace.

[acerbus80]

The bond was severed because Moiraine was burned out. The only other thing we know can sever a bond is death, and we know Moiraine is not dead.

 

How do we know she got burned out?

 

The beauty of logic.

We know from Lan that the bond was severed.

We know the two ways to sever the bond, stilled/burned out and death.

We know Moiraine is not dead.

We know messing around with the OP around a ter'angreal can result in getting burned out, and if a ter'angreal melts like the doorway did, we can be quite sure the women did something they were not supposed to.

We know that the finns can be held off by a channeler.

We know neither Moiraine nor Lanfear could hold off the finns, as both became prisoners, with a very high probability of Lanfear actually dying while imprisoned.

We know Lanfear was burned out.

 

Etc, etc.

 

Simply a matter of taking the great deal of information that is out there, and put the pieces together.

I must either be missing something, or, well, I'm missing something.

 

From what I've gathered, Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated by the DO.  If I'm not mistaken, Cyndane can channel, meaning she wasn't burned out when she originally died/went through the terangreal.  Or does reincarnation undo stilling?

[ed2funy]

Lanfear was not reincarnated by the DO because he had no access to her soul.

 

I vote that the Finns took all her memories and put them in another body.

It does not undo stilling, but Cyndane is lower than Lanfear.

They are not the same, but they are.

[Luckers]

We know Moiraine is not dead.

 

i just got to thinking, how do we know Moiraine is not dead?

so far everyone including me has assumed it but is it certain?

 

i loosely remember a qoute by Brandon about how everyone assumes she's alive that caused me to think maybe she's not.

if i could just figure out where i saw it

 

The two big ones are that Moiraine stated in a letter that she had foreseen that she would not die falling into Finnland, and that Min has had viewings of things Moiraine still needs to do, and her viewings are infalliable short of the destruction of the Wheel (which will presumably come after TG if it happens, and thus after Moiraine's viewed actions). There are tonnes of smaller hints as well. But yes, we know she is alive.

 

From what I've gathered, Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated by the DO.  If I'm not mistaken, Cyndane can channel, meaning she wasn't burned out when she originally died/went through the terangreal.  Or does reincarnation undo stilling?

 

Transmigration (which is not the same as reincarnation) likely does not undo stilling or burning out given all the other Transmigrated Forsaken retained their exact strength--which means in all probability the channeling state remains constant accross the transmigrational bridge. Brandon stated he was pretty sure that would be the case, they he wanted to check with Maria to make a 100%.

 

This means that yes, Cyndane likely would have still been burned out after she was recycled. There have been a fair number of arguments as to how she came to be healed--I'm a firm supporter of the idea that a Black Sister from Salidar healed her, though others argue that the strength loss difference between her and Siuan makes that problematic (I have an explanation for that, but not many seem to buy it.  ;D)

[Majsju]

Lanfear was not reincarnated by the DO because he had no access to her soul.

 

I vote that the Finns took all her memories and put them in another body.

It does not undo stilling, but Cyndane is lower than Lanfear.

They are not the same, but they are.

 

Your vote is disqualified by RJ, as he has confirmed that the finns does not have the ability to transmigrate souls.

[Impressive Bosom]

We know Moiraine is not dead.

 

i just got to thinking, how do we know Moiraine is not dead?

so far everyone including me has assumed it but is it certain?

 

i loosely remember a qoute by Brandon about how everyone assumes she's alive that caused me to think maybe she's not.

if i could just figure out where i saw it

 

The two big ones are that Moiraine stated in a letter that she had foreseen that she would not die falling into Finnland, and that Min has had viewings of things Moiraine still needs to do, and her viewings are infalliable short of the destruction of the Wheel (which will presumably come after TG if it happens, and thus after Moiraine's viewed actions). There are tonnes of smaller hints as well. But yes, we know she is alive.

 

From what I've gathered, Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated by the DO.  If I'm not mistaken, Cyndane can channel, meaning she wasn't burned out when she originally died/went through the terangreal.  Or does reincarnation undo stilling?

 

Transmigration (which is not the same as reincarnation) likely does not undo stilling or burning out given all the other Transmigrated Forsaken retained their exact strength--which means in all probability the channeling state remains constant accross the transmigrational bridge. Brandon stated he was pretty sure that would be the case, they he wanted to check with Maria to make a 100%.

 

This means that yes, Cyndane likely would have still been burned out after she was recycled. There have been a fair number of arguments as to how she came to be healed--I'm a firm supporter of the idea that a Black Sister from Salidar healed her, though others argue that the strength loss difference between her and Siuan makes that problematic (I have an explanation for that, but not many seem to buy it.  ;D)

 

Luckers - could Cydane have been Healed from her stilling by Halima/Aran'gar? He/she was at Salidar and he/she would have been using the male half of the Source, so the Healing would have been more complete, yes? I'm fuzzy on the timing of things and I don't have the books here to research it.

[Majsju]

We know Moiraine is not dead.

 

i just got to thinking, how do we know Moiraine is not dead?

so far everyone including me has assumed it but is it certain?

 

i loosely remember a qoute by Brandon about how everyone assumes she's alive that caused me to think maybe she's not.

if i could just figure out where i saw it

 

The two big ones are that Moiraine stated in a letter that she had foreseen that she would not die falling into Finnland, and that Min has had viewings of things Moiraine still needs to do, and her viewings are infalliable short of the destruction of the Wheel (which will presumably come after TG if it happens, and thus after Moiraine's viewed actions). There are tonnes of smaller hints as well. But yes, we know she is alive.

 

From what I've gathered, Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated by the DO.  If I'm not mistaken, Cyndane can channel, meaning she wasn't burned out when she originally died/went through the terangreal.  Or does reincarnation undo stilling?

 

Transmigration (which is not the same as reincarnation) likely does not undo stilling or burning out given all the other Transmigrated Forsaken retained their exact strength--which means in all probability the channeling state remains constant accross the transmigrational bridge. Brandon stated he was pretty sure that would be the case, they he wanted to check with Maria to make a 100%.

 

This means that yes, Cyndane likely would have still been burned out after she was recycled. There have been a fair number of arguments as to how she came to be healed--I'm a firm supporter of the idea that a Black Sister from Salidar healed her, though others argue that the strength loss difference between her and Siuan makes that problematic (I have an explanation for that, but not many seem to buy it.  ;D)

 

Luckers - could Cydane have been Healed from her stilling by Halima/Aran'gar? He/she was at Salidar and he/she would have been using the male half of the Source, so the Healing would have been more complete, yes? I'm fuzzy on the timing of things and I don't have the books here to research it.

 

No, every example of Healing by the opposite gender have resulted in full restoration of the ability to channel. Not 'more complete', 100% complete, or at least so close to 100% that not even the healed people can notice any difference.

[Impressive Bosom]

We know Moiraine is not dead.

 

i just got to thinking, how do we know Moiraine is not dead?

so far everyone including me has assumed it but is it certain?

 

i loosely remember a qoute by Brandon about how everyone assumes she's alive that caused me to think maybe she's not.

if i could just figure out where i saw it

 

The two big ones are that Moiraine stated in a letter that she had foreseen that she would not die falling into Finnland, and that Min has had viewings of things Moiraine still needs to do, and her viewings are infalliable short of the destruction of the Wheel (which will presumably come after TG if it happens, and thus after Moiraine's viewed actions). There are tonnes of smaller hints as well. But yes, we know she is alive.

 

From what I've gathered, Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated by the DO.  If I'm not mistaken, Cyndane can channel, meaning she wasn't burned out when she originally died/went through the terangreal.  Or does reincarnation undo stilling?

 

Transmigration (which is not the same as reincarnation) likely does not undo stilling or burning out given all the other Transmigrated Forsaken retained their exact strength--which means in all probability the channeling state remains constant accross the transmigrational bridge. Brandon stated he was pretty sure that would be the case, they he wanted to check with Maria to make a 100%.

 

This means that yes, Cyndane likely would have still been burned out after she was recycled. There have been a fair number of arguments as to how she came to be healed--I'm a firm supporter of the idea that a Black Sister from Salidar healed her, though others argue that the strength loss difference between her and Siuan makes that problematic (I have an explanation for that, but not many seem to buy it.  ;D)

 

Luckers - could Cydane have been Healed from her stilling by Halima/Aran'gar? He/she was at Salidar and he/she would have been using the male half of the Source, so the Healing would have been more complete, yes? I'm fuzzy on the timing of things and I don't have the books here to research it.

 

No, every example of Healing by the opposite gender have resulted in full restoration of the ability to channel. Not 'more complete', 100% complete, or at least so close to 100% that not even the healed people can notice any difference.

 

Hm. How many examples of 'opposite gender' Healing have their actually been? And in those instances, have we been given any sort of diffinitive POV or specific reason to believe that they are 100% restored (as opposed to, say 90%)?

[Nightstrike]

RJ said it had to be different genders Healing each other for it to be fully effective. I think "fully effective" should mean that it is 100 percent.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

- For Alys Kinch, the Healing of stilling must be done by the other gender to be fully effective.  A woman Healing a woman or a man Healing a man results in less than full restoration.  It all ties into that theme I keep harping on.  Men and women have to work together to be their most effective.  And while the weave used by Flinn for Healing is not exactly that used by Nynaeve, either would use the same weave on a man or a woman.

 

 

[mb]

We know that the finns can be held off by a channeler.

That applies for sure to the Aelfinn; we do not know whether it also applies to the Eelfinn.

 

We know the two ways to sever the bond, stilled/burned out and death.

Yet we do not know whether or not those are the only ways.

 

We know Lanfear was burned out.

More accurately: Lanfear was likely burned out.

The books do not tell one way or the other about that.

 

[ed2funy]

Lanfear was not reincarnated by the DO because he had no access to her soul.

 

I vote that the Finns took all her memories and put them in another body.

It does not undo stilling, but Cyndane is lower than Lanfear.

They are not the same, but they are.

 

Your vote is disqualified by RJ, as he has confirmed that the finns does not have the ability to transmigrate souls.

 

I didn't say her soul. I said her memories.

We know they have people's memories. We know they can give them to others What is to say they can't upload only certain ones?

[shinerfan]

I seem to remember a passage somewhere that described Alsalam as very handsome and even more vain. Maybe this was referring to some other king, I can't remember which book it was in. And while there's no reason to think that an old, old man can't be both handsome and vain, to me this reads like a younger man. Does anyone remember this?

 

Sorry, I was thinking of Ailron of Amadicia. The passage was in the prologue to tLoC.

[Majsju]

Lanfear was not reincarnated by the DO because he had no access to her soul.

 

I vote that the Finns took all her memories and put them in another body.

It does not undo stilling, but Cyndane is lower than Lanfear.

They are not the same, but they are.

 

Your vote is disqualified by RJ, as he has confirmed that the finns does not have the ability to transmigrate souls.

 

I didn't say her soul. I said her memories.

We know they have people's memories. We know they can give them to others What is to say they can't upload only certain ones?

 

Her POV in WH tell us that there is a bit more than just memories in there.

As for the finns ability to upload memories, first they need to gather them. And that gathering is done by establishing a link with people. Look at Mats reasoning in KOD, he is fairly spot on.

[mb]

I didn't say her soul. I said her memories.

We know they have people's memories. We know they can give them to others What is to say they can't upload only certain ones?

I take that the previous memories remain (when giving other people's memories) since Mat still has his own memories.

Cyndane has only Lanfear's memories; she does not have the memories of the body.  We do not know whether either race could erase memories.

 

As for the finns ability to upload memories, first they need to gather them. And that gathering is done by establishing a link with people.

Lanfear's memories are the memories that Cyndane has.  I take all people who go through either door gets a link with both races.  Lanfear went through the Eelfinn door.

 

[ed2funy]

I think it is plausible. We don't know enough of the Finns to rule it out imo.

[Majsju]

 

 

As for the finns ability to upload memories, first they need to gather them. And that gathering is done by establishing a link with people.

Lanfear's memories are the memories that Cyndane has.  I take all people who go through either door gets a link with both races.  Lanfear went through the Eelfinn door.

 

 

That is not even close to the point.

[mb]

As for the finns ability to upload memories, first they need to gather them. And that gathering is done by establishing a link with people.

Lanfear's memories are the memories that Cyndane has.  I take all people who go through either door gets a link with both races.  Lanfear went through the Eelfinn door.

That is not even close to the point.

How?

 

[Majsju]

As for the finns ability to upload memories, first they need to gather them. And that gathering is done by establishing a link with people.

Lanfear's memories are the memories that Cyndane has.  I take all people who go through either door gets a link with both races.  Lanfear went through the Eelfinn door.

That is not even close to the point.

How?

 

 

Read Mats thoughts in KOD about how the link and the memories work.

[ed2funy]

We are of course assuming he is correct.

 

But from what I remember, he believes they create a link.

But also, from another time, I think someone (maybe Mat or Moiraine) believed that they sifted through someone's memories.

Which is why they had a weird feeling when getting their answers.

 

We have nothing to say they can't do it (take someone's memories and give them to someone else).

[Luckers]

As for the finns ability to upload memories, first they need to gather them. And that gathering is done by establishing a link with people.

Lanfear's memories are the memories that Cyndane has.  I take all people who go through either door gets a link with both races.  Lanfear went through the Eelfinn door.

That is not even close to the point.

How?

 

 

The finns only have access to the memories the person aquires after they enter the doorway. Cyndane has memories from before.

[kamros]

I am not really convinced that moraine was burned out. I could be that she is able of holding them off but its trapped in their world because she cannot find a way to leave. Also, because she is in a different world(?) would lan still be able to feel their link?

 

also, i agree with luckers on the cyndane thing...

[Luckers]

I am not really convinced that moraine was burned out. I could be that she is able of holding them off but its trapped in their world because she cannot find a way to leave. Also, because she is in a different world(?) would lan still be able to feel their link?

 

also, i agree with luckers on the cyndane thing...

 

Yes on the Lan thing. We've seen characters cross dimensional boundaries without it effecting the bond. Also, Cyndane states that she was held by the Finns. Not stuck in their world, held.

[Caedda_Sedai]

I think I'm really slow on the uptake!

 

I never realised (until I read these forums!) that Noal was Jain Farstrider.  I just thought he was either a Listener, or a Darkfriend who was clever enough to get caught up with Mat.  For some reason I got the impression that the Jain Farstrider stories were hundreds of years old - which obviously can't be the cas if Noal is still bobbing round!

 

Also, what's the dealie between Moraine and Thom, I seem to have totally missed something there as well!?