I'm Upset Because I Found Out The Forsaken Are Blatant Rip of Cook's 'The Taken'

[The Fisher King]

I read Glen Cook's The Black Company books around 88 or 89 and had forgotten how fantastic they were...I came back across them the other day.

 

My jaw dropped reading about ''The Ten Who Were Taken'' ... The Taken.

 

I love Mr Jordan and WOT (and admire and appreciate what Brandon Sanderson did with The Gathtering Storm) and all its brilliance and always will and can't wait for Towers of Midnight and I understand that all fantasy borrows from each other...Dark Lords/Rings/Magic/Farmboy Heroes/Swords/Quests etc...but this is just WAY too similar. I mean WAY too similar.

 

It makes the similarity to Dune look like nonsense.

 

It makes Goodkinds series look stunningly original.

 

WAY too similar for comfort.

 

JMO

 

 

Fish

[mb]

There were similar complaints about other fiction in the past.

 

Not sure whether Robert Jordan knew of the series or of the author.

If Robert Jordan knew neither, then any similarities would be coincidental.

 

[Muad Cheade]

Okay...In this type of genre, similarities are abundant. For example, I've never read The Black Company, but the "Ten Who Were Taken" sounds very similar to the Nine Nazgul from LoTR. Similarities will always happen in this type of fiction. It's inevitable.

 

However, the Terry Goodkind novels came out after the WoT had already been started, and although I have never read it, from what I can understand, many (including RJ) consider it to be a plagiarism of the WoT.

[Talmanes]

You would have to be more specific on how the "ten who were taken" are similar to the Forsaken. Just saying it doesn't really provide a basis.

[erickm001]

Okay...In this type of genre, similarities are abundant. For example, I've never read The Black Company, but the "Ten Who Were Taken" sounds very similar to the Nine Nazgul from LoTR. Similarities will always happen in this type of fiction. It's inevitable.

 

However, the Terry Goodkind novels came out after the WoT had already been started, and although I have never read it, from what I can understand, many (including RJ) consider it to be a plagiarism of the WoT.

 

I read the whole "Sword of Truth" series. In the first couple of books, yeah you could see WOT all over the place -- Sisters of the Light, the collars used to control people, etc. Richard was Rand. In the later books, the similarities with WOT dropped away, and similarities to "Atlas Shrugged" began to appear. Richard was John Galt. Ayn Rand and Jordan had a big influence on Goodkind, for good and bad. I can't recommend the series to anyone, but it has moments of absolute brillance. Not enough of those moments, though.

[mb]

You would have to be more specific on how the "ten who were taken" are similar to the Forsaken. Just saying it doesn't really provide a basis.

I have not read the series, but this link might help explain::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Company#The_Ten_Who_Were_Taken.3B_The_New_Taken

 

[Taura-Tierno]

I would also like to know more about these similarities with the Taken. The wikipedia link doesn't say anything but "Many generations before the first novel, these Ten powerful wizards were magically bound to the will of the Dominator" and then lists the names of them. A number of powerful wizards bound by someone/to something isn't really something unique to WoT.

 

[nophone]

I just want to comment that The Sword of Truth is trash. 10 or so novels of condescending trash written at a middle school reading level with content too mature for people that young. I would have less of a problem with this series if it wasn't so abundantly filled with rape and other forms of sexual deviancy and unnecessary exploits that do very little to advance the story or characteristic the characters in it... i mean other than the fact that any 'bad guy' in TSoT is characterized by being an unscrupulously evil sexual deviant... I would have less of a problem with these books if they lacked that content specifically because I could forgive them for being so condescending to the reader because they'd then be justifiable young adult fiction. All of the plot lines are either ridiculously predictable or so completely out there that it wouldn't be possible to make educated guesses on the direction the author was going other than to be uncertain of who is going to be raped next... but knowing somebody will. I read these books (all of them) as a favor to a friend and in exchange for convincing them to read The Wheel of Time (they really are in my debt now). I admit that the series has it's redeemable qualities and despite what all the Sword of Truth fanboys (and girls) say I think the show is actually pretty decent and taking Terry Goodkind's perverted mind funk out of the equation in the show, the producers are able to construct a similar (but not the exact same) universe, and characters that IMHO are pretty spot on considering how campy and dimwitted most of them are written in the novels. Somebody should poke out Terry Goodkinds eyes with an Agiel. The show may be cheesy and campy... but underneath it all the books are too... and each one ends with a nice gathering of main characters for one big happy Scooby-Doo ending.

[The Fisher King]

Hi Guys, I'm back.

 

It suckx to work New Year's Night LOL!

 

Thanks for the replies. ... Ok, the following is an exact quote lifted straight from a book summary off wikipedia. I BOLDED the part that gave me the most primary cause for concern:

 

The world of the Black Company is shaped by events that occurred long before the time of the first novel. A powerful wizard called the Dominator had created a brutal empire, assisted by his sorceress wife, known as the Lady, and ten enslaved magical rivals, the Ten Who Were Taken or just Taken. Eventually the Domination was overthrown by a rebellion led by the White Rose. Not powerful enough to kill any of them, she had all 12 buried alive and partially asleep in the remote Barrowland, with magical enchantments to keep them bound.

 

Now, as I said in my original post, and have others have pointed out: I have understood my whole life that there are going to be many many 'borrowed' cross-over similarities in the field of fantasy (Like  dragons, elves, dwarves, rings, swords, sorceres, Gods, quests, etc etc).

 

But, the part I list in Bold is just TOO MUCH imo.

 

I still love both series...its just something I came across and wanted to point out.

 

 

Fish

 

[nophone]

Hi Guys, I'm back.

 

The world of the Black Company is shaped by events that occurred long before the time of the first novel. A powerful wizard called the Dominator had created a brutal empire, assisted by his sorceress wife, known as the Lady, and ten enslaved magical rivals, the Ten Who Were Taken or just Taken. Eventually the Domination was overthrown by a rebellion led by the White Rose. Not powerful enough to kill any of them, she had all 12 buried alive and partially asleep in the remote Barrowland, with magical enchantments to keep them bound.

 

Now, as I said in my original post, and have others have pointed out: I have understood my whole life that there are going to be many many 'borrowed' cross-over similarities in the field of fantasy (Like  dragons, elves, dwarves, rings, swords, sorceres, Gods, quests, etc etc).

 

But, the part I list in Bold is just TOO MUCH imo.

 

I still love both series...its just something I came across and wanted to point out.

 

 

Fish

 

 

Sorry man I'm just not feeling you on this one. I really can't see Robert Jordan coming across these novels prior to writing The Eye of the World and thinking... "damn, that's good I gotta use that." Of course I haven't read this other fantasy series (or book), so I don't know exactly how deep this rabbit hole goes. I'll concede that it is entirely possible that RJ has artistic influences and that this could be the kind of thing that stuck in his head, but IMHO it is purely coincidence. In a fantasy series I think we're always dealing with a "chosen one", a "magic sword", some kind of magic and a lot of walking. While this comparison may be interesting, noteworthy, and possibly obvious to any whom have read both of these novels, I think that it is unlikely that it was ripped off, or even borrowed by RJ. If on the other hand it actually was, the manner in which the story unfolds with the characters whom were frozen away is likely as radically different as the names chosen for the characters (many of which are borrowed from various other novels or historic writings).

 

[The Fisher King]

Oh and also, just saw the excellent link that mb provided.

 

In WOT, the Dark Deity has expired Forsaken 'reborn.'

 

In Black Comapny the Dark Deity has expired Taken 'replaced.'

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

The Ten Who Were Taken sounds like they were bound against their will. The Forsaken did it of their own accord. There were also many, many Forsaken. Only thirteen survived the aftermath of the Breaking.

 

Yes, there are similarities. But I really doubt Jordan ripped off any concept intentionally.

[RUSH]

Fish, you say you've read Black Company, but then you say things like this.  Don't you remember the scene where The Lady meets up with Whisper (a good guy leader/general) and then something happens and now Whisper is one of the Taken?  It's brain-washing, mind control, will domination, or some other sort of evil magic to subvert one's will.  Hence, "the Taken."

 

Now hopefully you recall that the Forsaken all joined up with the Dark One of the own free will, and their reasons range from greed to jealousy to they like to torture people or they were just born bad, etc.

 

Next, let's look into being "reborn" versus being "replaced."  Ishamael, Balthamel, Aginor, and Lanfear were all killed and then the DO took their souls and stuffed them into new bodies which he happened to find or have available.  Thus we have the womanizing Balthamel put into the body of a gorgeous woman.  Or the tall (and proud of it) Lanfear put into the body of a really short girl.  The DO has a dark sense of humor, clearly.

 

The Lady, on the other hand, replaces her dead Taken by finding new candidates and doing her little mind-warp thingy to force them to join her, kinda like promoting new captains when your old ones get killed, except that you are grabbing the best guys from the other side and magically forcing them to join you.  When The Limper dies, he stays dead and gets replaced by someone else.

 

Totally.  Freaking.  Different.

 

You really gotta stop grasping at every little straw...

 

I'm starting to think all these posts about "ripoffs" are from people who don't actually know what that means.

 

 

[The Fisher King]

Rush, I agree with you that there are certainly differences.

 

However, to call The Taken and The Forsaken ''Totally Freaking Different'' from each other is a not only a gross exaggeration, its simply not factually true.

 

Some things, especially in literature, just ARE very similar. It doesn't mean that each doesn't have its own original spin, or that we shouldn't like them...we can nitpick differences between any two similarities, if we really want to but we shouldn't let those nitpicked differences blind us to similarities that DO in fact exist.

 

You might as well say that Sword of Truth and WOT are ''Totally Freaking Different.''

 

Agitel...please cure my memory on this, but...I thought that Pre-Breaking, there were many many Dreadlords, and it was only the Top 13 of the Dreadlords that were Chosen as The Forsaken?

 

 

Fish

[RUSH]

We might as well label any book that has "evil overlord has evil lieutentants" as a Lord of the Rings ripoff, then.  After all, Sauron had the Nazgul.  And where did Tolkein come up with that?  If we look into the right legends, we'll find some evil king who had evil henchmen.

 

There's "ripoff" and then there's similar themes that stem from similar source material.  Ripping another author off is an intentional act.  Having mined the same legends and ancient stories for the basis of your story, which then results in similarities, is totally freaking different.  Remember, you used "Blatant Rip" in the title of this thread.

 

The Sword of Truth has WOT similarities for the first few books, no doubt about it.  But then, as was said, it goes off on a completely different, preachy objectivist tangent and exploration of sexual deviancy.  It then just becomes a parody of itself, where in every book, something keeps Richard and Kahlan apart, Kahlan almost gets raped, other women do get raped, and then Richard fixes everything by getting really mad, slaughtering a bunch of people, and giving a 20 page speech spouting Ayn Rand philosophy.  That's not WOT in the slightest.

[The Fisher King]

I see your points Rush and I gree - thanks for bearing with me, and, i think I have thought of some specific examples that may betteer explain why I feel that this particular situation's similarites (Forsaken/Taken) stands out so very much - to me at least.

 

What I was trying to say was that ''Taken = Forsaken'' is an equivalent situation (imo, at least) to:

 

1 Black Ajah in WOT and Those Mean Women with the collars in SOT.

 

2 The Aiel in WOT and those folks in Dune.

 

3 The Collars (Rada Han?) in SOT and the Collars (Adam) in WOT.

 

4 Allanon in Sword of Shannara and Gandalf in LOTR.

 

 

See...Im saying I understaaaand that a certain amount of similarities are going to cross over (wizards, farmboys, elves, quests, magic, etc) but that the ones I mentioned above are much more vividly similar to each other than most.

 

 

I hope I'm being a little clearer - the examples I used above just came to me lol.

 

 

Fish

 

[Talmanes]

From what's been said I am not seeing much similarity. The taken seem to just be disposable warlords, while the Forsaken are are the completely different. They are only vaguely similar, and definitely not even close to a blatant rip off. RJ probably never even read the series.

[Agitel]

Agitel...please cure my memory on this, but...I thought that Pre-Breaking, there were many many Dreadlords, and it was only the Top 13 of the Dreadlords that were Chosen as The Forsaken?

 

Dreadlord was a term used only for the channeling (I believe only channeling) leaders for the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars. During the War of Shadow, any Aes Sedai that fought for the Shadow was called a Forsaken/Chosen. The thirteen we know were the cream of that crop, though. Even after the Dark One was sealed and saidin tainted, other Forsaken still ran about the land, and it took a while for the last of them to die out.

[susie10]

I see the link - but only because you made it

 

Most fantasy book have groups of 'elite' minions of the Big Bad Guy

 

to name a few

like the nine Nazgûl or Ringwraiths in lord of the rings ( i think someone said that already)

the forsaken in wheel of time

death eaters in harry potter (except there are a few more)

 

there are similarities between the forsaken and the taken but I would describe it as a coincidence not a blatant rip

 

despite the names sounding similar they mean two different things

to forsake (as in forsaken) means to abandon - just as the forsaken abandoned the light - they conciously chose to become minions

 

taken - it is obvious what it implies although I haven't read the book so I can't give you a specific example

[dapianoplay3r]

Asmodeus and Samael. Sound familiar

They are the demons from the bible, RJ borrowed heaps but he made it better

[ed2funy]

the Bible bible, or some other book. :D

 

I have to disagree here.

There may be similarities, but every fantasy book has the Evil Lord guy, and some Evil Henchmen people as Rush said.

 

 

[Talmanes]

Asmodeus and Samael. Sound familiar

They are the demons from the bible, RJ borrowed heaps but he made it better

Neither of those demons are in the Bible but are only spoken of in apocryphal texts. RJ could have gotten the Forsaken names from those, but I doubt it. Samael/Samuel/Sammuel aren't exactly the most uncommon names by the way. And although it is possible I doubt that RJ ever read the book of Tobit or any of the other texts those demons are included in.

[Agitel]

Asmodeus and Samael. Sound familiar

They are the demons from the bible, RJ borrowed heaps but he made it better

Neither of those demons are in the Bible but are only spoken of in apocryphal texts. RJ could have gotten the Forsaken names from those, but I doubt it. Samael/Samuel/Sammuel aren't exactly the most uncommon names by the way. And although it is possible I doubt that RJ ever read the book of Tobit or any of the other texts those demons are included in.

 

Actually, I beg to differ. It would make perfect sense for him to have borrowed such things. The basic premise is that their stories are our legends, and our stories are theirs. Be'lal, Rahvin and perhaps even Ishamael are other examples of Forsaken having borrowed names. I'm pretty sure a few more fit as well.

[jeffsim17]

Off the top of my head lets compare: Star Wars has the force/ WOT has the one power/true power

WOT has Aes Sedie/Asha'man/Star Wars has jedi. LOTR has orgs/ WOT has trollacs. I would venture to guess that I could go on for some time looking for "likeness" in some of the most popular  scifi/fantasy  series of our time.

[ed2funy]

I wouldn't equate the Force with the Power.