Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Terez]

Most interesting is an earlier one from RJ, in the Questions of the Week. He indicated that a very small amount of balefire wouldn't prevent the Dark One from grabbing the soul.

[ryanphlp2002]

Most interesting is an earlier one from RJ, in the Questions of the Week. He indicated that a very small amount of balefire wouldn't prevent the Dark One from grabbing the soul.

 

Ah! Interesting, I had forgotten about those fish bites, now I remember all the wondering they had caused at the time! So, getting killed in Tel'aran'rhiod is the same as getting killed in the Wolf Dream (poor Hopper!) as in it's the "final" death of a soul?

 

And the DO's time limit is longer than I thought, but I don't get how the amount could make a difference - it erases a certain amount of the victims actions, the amount depending on how much is used but it starts at death then runs backwards over the victims life. Hmmmm, if like in Lumley's "Necroscope" books (which I loved) everyone has a "lifeline" that runs straight for your lifetime in this cycle and balefire kills you at point 199 and burns your line back to point 180 all actions between point 199 and point 180 and their consequences cease to exist the Do can't get the soul because the point of death "199" no longer exists in the pattern anymore? That was my way of thinking of it but if only a small amount is used will the point of death still not be burned from the pattern? Or is there still some echo/scream/unravelling thread that can still be salvaged before fading forever?

Edited April 3, 2011 by ryanphlp2002

[Terez]

I think dying in Tel'aran'rhiod is only the final death if you are there as a dead Hero.

 

I'm not sure how the 'small amount' thing works.

[yoniy0]

I should think it fairly straight forward. If the DO has such and such seconds to grab a soul after death, and the BF stream burns back less than that amount of time, a quick DO might still manage the grab. No?

[ryanphlp2002]

I should think it fairly straight forward. If the DO has such and such seconds to grab a soul after death, and the BF stream burns back less than that amount of time, a quick DO might still manage the grab. No?

 

That's what I would think too but how can the DO pick up a soul from a thread that ends (after balefire) BEFORE death? Makes more sense that he couldn't get them at all to me but maybe they do linger longer with less balefire.

[yoniy0]

The thread ends at the point of death. With BF, the DO is simply caught unawares because the person was alive and all was good, but then all of a sudden the person's dead for the past 5 minutes and it's too late to go looking for his soul. Now, if for some reason it takes the Wheel 1 minute to process dead souls, and in that window of time the DO can grab unprocessed souls, well then if someone died from a stream of BF only strong enough to burn him 30 seconds to the past, then the DO has a full half minute to decide to grab him still.

[ryanphlp2002]

Ah excellent explanation, makes the most sense, the soul lingers for a set time but balefire "speeds up" that time so to speak. Ok, case closed for me, cheers mate!

[Sid]

In TGH chapter 41 "Disagreements", Rand is in an abandoned town near Falme. He goes to sleep on an uncomfortable mattress and wakes up seeing Ba'alzamon holding his Dragon Banner. They have a conversation and when Rand looks again he is gone, the Banner back in his saddlebags all buckled up, yet there were burn marks on a chair back where Ba'alzamon touched it.

 

So, was this a dream, was it reality, or was it just meant to be mysterious and confusing? Usually the confusing stuff makes sense later, but I could never come up with an explanation for this.

[Lupy]

In the early books Ishmael seems able to make things that happen in TAR also happen in the real world. I just read that chapter a few days ago and assumed that the dream was in TAR and that Ishy could somehow affect the real world from there.

[IAmTheDragonReborn]

So is Tam al'Thor in two places at once in ToM? With both Perrin and Rand. Or was the book just sub-divided into two different timelines where Perrin's one was staggered compared to Rand's?

[Finnssss22]

So is Tam al'Thor in two places at once in ToM? With both Perrin and Rand. Or was the book just sub-divided into two different timelines where Perrin's one was staggered compared to Rand's?

 

Perrin's timeline in ToM doesn't even catch up to the end of tGS till chapter 30 "Men Dream Here".

Tam has gone to Tear at this point and doesn't reappear with Perrin until the Dreamspike is destroyed and traveling restored.

We have to assume that Tam and whoever came to get him traveled to outside the DS radius and did the same to leave.

 

If I remember right, there was a mistake made with Sulin but I also believe it was corrected in later printings.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Finnssss

[Terez]

In TGH chapter 41 "Disagreements", Rand is in an abandoned town near Falme. He goes to sleep on an uncomfortable mattress and wakes up seeing Ba'alzamon holding his Dragon Banner. They have a conversation and when Rand looks again he is gone, the Banner back in his saddlebags all buckled up, yet there were burn marks on a chair back where Ba'alzamon touched it.

 

So, was this a dream, was it reality, or was it just meant to be mysterious and confusing? Usually the confusing stuff makes sense later, but I could never come up with an explanation for this.

It's very similar to what Amys did when she caught Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod when she wasn't supposed to be there. I'm thinking the burn marks have something to do with the True Power.

[yoniy0]

Wait, so do you mean Rand was in fact still in the Dream when he saw the burn marks, or that the TP somehow facilitated Ishamael's affecting the waking world from it?

To me the simplest answer is early-book-ism.

[Finnssss22]

Wait, so do you mean Rand was in fact still in the Dream when he saw the burn marks, or that the TP somehow facilitated Ishamael's affecting the waking world from it?

To me the simplest answer is early-book-ism.

 

I always wondered about some of these occurrences (rats with broken backs in Baerlon among others) myself until Aran'gar mentions that he/she has to be in close proximity to find Egwene's dreams.

I don't think Ishamael is a Dreamer (I think he has a strong talent in Foretelling though but that's another story as it were ) and needed to also be close to Rand, Mat and Perrin to enter their dreams.

I was trying to think of a time when Ishamael came to the boys in their dreams when they weren't alone and couldn't come up with any off the top of my head. Always seemed to happen when they were alone in their own room ect.

I could be wrong but I think this is what Terez is getting at. She will no doubt correct me if I assumed wrongly heh.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Finnssss

[yoniy0]

I was trying to think of a time when Ishamael came to the boys in their dreams when they weren't alone and couldn't come up with any off the top of my head. Always seemed to happen when they were alone in their own room ect.

More useful is probably the fact that at the beginning of TEotW Ishamael wasn't completely free yet (he only managed to cast an apparition to SL, and that's a tad later on). I doubt he could've sneaked into their rooms.

[herid]

I was trying to think of a time when Ishamael came to the boys in their dreams when they weren't alone

 

There is one instance in tEoTW when Rand is watching Mat:

 

 

 

Mat was tossing and twisting on his bed, groaning in his sleep. “ . . . deny you, deny you, deny you . . . ” It faded off into unintelligible moans.

 

Rand reached out to shake him awake, and at the first touch Mat sat up with a strangled grunt. For a minute Mat stared around wildly, then drew a long, shuddering breath and dropped his head into his hands. Abruptly he twisted around, digging under his pillow, then sank back clutching the ruby-hilted dagger in both hands on his chest. He turned his head to look at Rand, his face hidden in shadow. “He’s back, Rand.”

 

-tEoTW, Ch 43

 

Edited April 4, 2011 by herid

[Finnssss22]

I was trying to think of a time when Ishamael came to the boys in their dreams when they weren't alone

 

There is one instance in tEoTW when Rand is watching Mat:

 

 

 

Mat was tossing and twisting on his bed, groaning in his sleep. “ . . . deny you, deny you, deny you . . . ” It faded off into unintelligible moans.

 

Rand reached out to shake him awake, and at the first touch Mat sat up with a strangled grunt. For a minute Mat stared around wildly, then drew a long, shuddering breath and dropped his head into his hands. Abruptly he twisted around, digging under his pillow, then sank back clutching the ruby-hilted dagger in both hands on his chest. He turned his head to look at Rand, his face hidden in shadow. “He’s back, Rand.”

 

-tEoTW, Ch 43

 

 

 

 

I meant more like somewhere where Ishy couldn't be hidden close by, not necessarily right in their room every time.

Like when they are all camping together. I used to chalk this up to Moiriane saying that she can extend "her protection" when they're close to her but some recent arguments and theories seem to discount this being possible.

The rats for example were killed all over the Inn.

 

An interesting debate either way.

I'm definitely leaning towards close proximity but I can't say I'm sold on anything presented so far.

Hell, early "bookism", as it's being described, could be the reason.

There's more than a few things from the early books that are not very easy to explain later on heh.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Finnssss

[Terez]

Wait, so do you mean Rand was in fact still in the Dream when he saw the burn marks, or that the TP somehow facilitated Ishamael's affecting the waking world from it?

The latter.

 

To me the simplest answer is early-book-ism.

It usually is. Doesn't mean it's always true, though.

[yoniy0]

Yes, one should always be careful not to miss hidden clues when invoking early-book-ism. Not that it matters all that much, but I prefer being aware of the hidden layers in RJ's writing.

 

@Finnssss I thought of the mice (or were they rats?) in Caemlyn, but there could be a simpler explanation there. If they were the DO's eyes, then perhaps that connection could've been used to kill them in that manner (whether or not Ishamael controlled them directly a la Graendal and that bird).

[Terez]

The reason I think the True Power might explain it is because of the way Brandon described it, as being such a uniquely destructive force. In that sense it can do many things that the One Power cannot.

 

In any case, I doubt we'll ever get a true answer on that as RJ's notes are often incomplete.

[ShenAnCalhar]

I forget some of the details about this, but I believe it happened in TSR. Egwene is a n00b in tel'aran'rhiod, ends up jumping to the Waste and being spotted by Amys before jumping back to (I believe) Tanchico. Amys is somehow able to follow her without knowing where she was going. This seems a lot like Perrin's trick of smelling where a wolf is going, but as far as I know, the Wise Ones never knew this trick. Or was it that they were just not teaching Egwene everything?

[Terez]

Birgitte talked about it - she said it was something like a feel of ripples whenever someone was in Tel'aran'rhiod knowingly. I think Moridin and Lanfear and Moghedien might be able to do this to some extent - maybe - but I don't think the Wise Ones can - that's more similar to following the trail like Perrin does. But I can't recall anything to suggest that Egwene can't do it. Doesn't mean there isn't such evidence; I just can't call any to mind at the moment.

 

That being said, Bair and Melaine offered to continue to teach Egwene after she left them, so it's doubtful they taught her everything.

[yoniy0]

Indeed. Also, Egwene wasn't exactly being careful; she's been carelessly flying in Tanchico's sky when Amys caught her. Not something one would have trouble spotting if one had the slightest inclination of an idea as to where Egwene went/was.

[herid]

Like when they are all camping together. I used to chalk this up to Moiriane saying that she can extend "her protection" when they're close to her but some recent arguments and theories seem to discount this being possible.

The rats for example were killed all over the Inn.

 

 

Did Moiraine ever claim that she could shield dreams of those near her? I can't recall that. I would consider it unlikely too given what happens later in the books. Even if she said that she might just be wrong. She didn't know much about TAR and Dreams.

 

Also, I'm confused about the rats in the Inn. What is the issue there? I though Ishy just killed them in TAR and that was that.

 

 

I forget some of the details about this, but I believe it happened in TSR. Egwene is a n00b in tel'aran'rhiod, ends up jumping to the Waste and being spotted by Amys before jumping back to (I believe) Tanchico. Amys is somehow able to follow her without knowing where she was going. This seems a lot like Perrin's trick of smelling where a wolf is going, but as far as I know, the Wise Ones never knew this trick. Or was it that they were just not teaching Egwene everything?

 

 

Birgitte talked about it - she said it was something like a feel of ripples whenever someone was in Tel'aran'rhiod knowingly.

I don't remember this. Do you have a quote?

 

I think Moridin and Lanfear and Moghedien might be able to do this to some extent - maybe - but I don't think the Wise Ones can - that's more similar to following the trail like Perrin does.

sorry, do you mean that the Wise Ones use something like Perrin's smelling trick and the Forsaken use something else, like what Birgitte has described? That's sounds a bit too complicated to me. Also, could Amys track Egwene in Tanchico using need? that's how Egwene found her in the Waste after all.

 

 

 

Wait, so do you mean Rand was in fact still in the Dream when he saw the burn marks, or that the TP somehow facilitated Ishamael's affecting the waking world from it?

To me the simplest answer is early-book-ism.

 

I always wondered about some of these occurrences (rats with broken backs in Baerlon among others) myself until Aran'gar mentions that he/she has to be in close proximity to find Egwene's dreams.

I don't think Ishamael is a Dreamer (I think he has a strong talent in Foretelling though but that's another story as it were ) and needed to also be close to Rand, Mat and Perrin to enter their dreams.

Why not a dreamer or at least a dreamwalker? BS hinted that some male character might have been one and Ishy is a good candidate. It's pretty clear that some Forsaken at least are dreamwalkers. Moggy and Lanfear are almost certainly, Lanfear speaks of breaking into Rand's dream past his wards. I seriously doubt any but a dreamwalker would ever be capable of that.

 

BTW, it's certainly would be strange if all Forsaken were dreamwalkers. Yet they all can enter TAR. How are they doing it if they are not dreamwalkers? I guess they could be entering Tar in flesh via gateways but we have several examples to the contrary (Moggy in Salidar and Mesaana in the Tower in ToM). I took this to mean that entering TAR can actually be taught (Demandred mentions teaching dream ter'angreal once). Avi mentioned that she was able to enter TAR with the help of a Wise One. I suspect this was different from a Wise One pulling Avi into TAR as they don't approve of such practice. Perhaps even finding dreams of others can be taught to an extent (which is how Aran'gar does it with Egwene) even though Egwene doesn't think it's possible. Perhaps some Forsaken are just better at this than others. Aran'gar might not be very good but it seems that Ishy is quite good (or he is even a dreamwalker) and doesn't need to be physically close to people to find their dreams.

 

anyway, this is getting far afield. perhaps a separate thread is in order.

[Terez]

I think Moridin and Lanfear and Moghedien might be able to do this to some extent - maybe - but I don't think the Wise Ones can - that's more similar to following the trail like Perrin does.

sorry, do you mean that the Wise Ones use something like Perrin's smelling trick and the Forsaken use something else, like what Birgitte has described? That's sounds a bit too complicated to me. Also, could Amys track Egwene in Tanchico using need? that's how Egwene found her in the Waste after all.

You can only track people using Need if you really Need to find them, probably. We've never seen anyone do it, but it should theoretically be quite possible if the need is strong enough. Birgitte's ability doesn't require that she be in the presence of a person when they disappear to find them, so it seems to be a different ability altogether, or perhaps Birgitte's ability was just a perfected version of the method used by Perrin. Hopper is much better at finding Perrin than Perrin is at finding Hopper - in fact, Perrin wonders how Hopper can find him near the end of TOM (without a trail to follow).