Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[plague fiend]

Heres my question: now that Saidin has been cleansed, is it safe to enter the ways again? I wonder with the taint gone what effect it would have on Machin Shin.

It took decades or even hundred of years for Machin Sin to form and render the Ways unusable. You could argue that it would also take time for it to get cleaned up (IF the taint was the reason for it's creation in the first place).

Also, consider that Fain had some troubling interraction with Machin Sin and we don't really know how it behaves NOW.

If I remember correctly, the taint is what caused the corruption and decay of the ways. Machin Sin is the result of that corruption. I think Machin Sin would not be affected by the cleansing of the taint, kind of like Rands wounds haven't healed. However, I would like to know how the removing of the taint has affected the Ways now, if any.

[Sid]

The name came because in the early days of the war the Aiel--especially those who had served Aes Sedai who turned to the Shadow--were being attacked by civillians, and so Lews Therin used his authority to protect them. Over time it was forgotten that the Aiel served the Aes Sedai as a whole, and they were linked to the Dragon--hence the creation of the name.

 

This thread is working as intended Thanks, Luckers.

[vanceme]

Is the darkfriend social held in the prologue of tgh occurring in morridin's blight lair? I got the impression that members were brought and left via gateway

[Arkane101]

in Lord of Chaos when Rand goes to Shadar Logoth with elder Hammon and that, why did Lews Therins voice say I must kill Demandred?

[mb]

Dark friend social, I recall somewhere telling that it was near Shayol Ghul.

 

Lews Therin comment, good question. Rand speculates there being some kind of connection between Demandred and the place.

[Morsker]

in Lord of Chaos when Rand goes to Shadar Logoth with elder Hammon and that, why did Lews Therins voice say I must kill Demandred?

I just reread the scene and couldn't see anything specific that would make the voice think of Demandred. Demandred's betrayal is a big obsession of the voice's though, second only to Ilyena's death, so it makes sense that sometimes the voice would rant about it without provocation.

[Terez]

One paragraph from Winter's Heart (Chapter-Out of Thin Air) has always vexed me.

"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, including the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.

 

My problem is why? Demandred burns with hatred for LTT/Rand and lives to be the one to kill him. I do not remember the exact quote but Moridin even rebuffs Dem at one point saying that the GLoD gets to kill Rand, not Demmy. So why does Demandred order the four of them to kill Rand? Does he not think them capable? Is he trying to draw Rand out? Finally the last sentence clearly points out that Demmy is either giving orders at the BT or is in the room when assignments are being handed out.

 

The quote where Demandred says only he shall kill Rand was from tGS, and, I think, as mistake on Brandon's behalf. Demandred loathes Lews Therin, but the outlet of his hatred has never been so directly personal. A bit like Mat's over-enthusiatic jesting, I suspect this was a bit of Brandon going a bit too far with a characters personality traits in portraying them.

Why assume that it was a mistake when 1) we know that one of the Forsaken has been given the opportunity to kill Rand, 2) we know that the Shadow considers Demandred its 'main player' for the Last Battle, and 3), as was pointed out, Demandred's very personal hatred of Lews Therin - the thing that caused him to turn to the Shadow in the first place - is so well-established?

 

He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off. Those that struck trees enveloped them in flame or blew the trunks apart in splinters. He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded! Snarling, he began to retreat amid the crackle of burning trees and the thunder of explosions. Away from the key. Sooner or later the old man had to tire, and then he could take care of killing al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not.

Why would he care if the others got there first or not if he did not care who killed Rand?

 

Demandred's orders seem to have been given after the attack on Cairhien, and his orders seem to have been for Far Madding, because he told them that it would be better for them to die than to be discovered 'again'. The only other explanation is that they reported on events in Altara, and Taim decided that Torval and Gedwyn had been too obvious in their attempt on Rand's life there, and that Dashiva had been too obvious...but Kisman was not even mentioned in Altara, so that makes no sense. Demandred seems to have been passionately disappointed in their failure at Cairhien, but still, the line makes no sense unless his orders were after Cairhien. In that case, I imagine he simply didn't believe they had a chance in the Pit of Doom to actually kill Rand, and he hoped Rand would off them.

 

If he did indeed change his mind - hard to say based on WH 13 - then I imagine that Cyndane convinced him some time between then and the Cleansing that Rand really was Lews Therin. Perhaps he was not convinced until he realized Rand's plan.

 

Is the darkfriend social held in the prologue of tgh occurring in morridin's blight lair? I got the impression that members were brought and left via gateway

We don't know for sure they were transported by gateway, but it seems likely. It's not his Blight fortress, but rather an area near Shayol Ghul which has properties of Tel'aran'rhiod. Somehow, it is the same place Rand visited in his dreams in TGS 15 'A Place to Begin' - he said it did not have the feel of Tel'aran'rhiod, which is exactly what Moghedien said about it when she was taken out of the vacuole in ACOS 25 'Mindtrap'.

[Luckers]

Why assume that it was a mistake when 1) we know that one of the Forsaken has been given the opportunity to kill Rand, 2) we know that the Shadow considers Demandred its 'main player' for the Last Battle, and 3), as was pointed out, Demandred's very personal hatred of Lews Therin - the thing that caused him to turn to the Shadow in the first place - is so well-established?

 

Because he instructed others to kill Rand in the past? Would Demandred like to be the one to kill Rand? Sure. Is he as fanatically against anyone else doing it as Brandon portrays him? No.

 

WH 35 - With the Choedan Kal said:

 

He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off. Those that struck trees enveloped them in flame or blew the trunks apart in splinters. He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded! Snarling, he began to retreat amid the crackle of burning trees and the thunder of explosions. Away from the key. Sooner or later the old man had to tire, and then he could take care of killing al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not.

 

Why would he care if the others got there first or not if he did not care who killed Rand?

 

I did not say he did not care who killed Rand, just that Brandon is wrong in the portrayal of the degree to which he cares who kills Rand. In my opinion, of course. :)

 

Besides, there are other reasons to care about getting in first in that specific situation. Gaining the credit from the Dark One for stopping Rand, for one. Gaining the Choedan Kal and Callandor for another.

[yoniy0]

I have a simple question. What's the difference between a Mask of Mirrors (like the one Sammael and Graendal used with the WO, or Rand used to hide the CK in his wall in Rhuidean, and to impregnate Elayne ) and a Mirror of Mists (like what the Salidar delegation used to intimidate Rand in Caemlyn)?

 

Another simple question: what happened with the ToM paralleling thread? If I remember the page count correctly, it wasn't merged with this one, was it?

[Luckers]

I have a simple question. What's the difference between a Mask of Mirrors (like the one Sammael and Graendal used with the WO, or Rand used to hide the CK in his wall in Rhuidean, and to impregnate Elayne ) and a Mirror of Mists (like what the Salidar delegation used to intimidate Rand in Caemlyn)?

 

Mask of Mirrors was a mistake, and changed in later printings. The proper name for that weave is Mirror of Mists.

 

Another simple question: what happened with the ToM paralleling thread? If I remember the page count correctly, it wasn't merged with this one, was it?

 

No it wasn't joined. It's somewhere on the board though.

[plague fiend]

Is Halima Be'lal? I believe she freed Mog.(she was seen in Mog.s tent right before Mog. escaped) and we know that Mog. was freed by someone using Saidin. There are other things that make me think this is a possibility. I believe that she showed up when Rand and Nyn. used the Choedan Kal and fought with Eban. I'm in the middle of CoT, so there may be things I have not read yet.

[yoniy0]

Is Halima Be'lal? I believe she freed Mog.(she was seen in Mog.s tent right before Mog. escaped) and we know that Mog. was freed by someone using Saidin. There are other things that make me think this is a possibility. I believe that she showed up when Rand and Nyn. used the Choedan Kal and fought with Eban. I'm in the middle of CoT, so there may be things I have not read yet.

No, she's Aran'gar, formally known as Balthamel. We've seen her and Osan'gar wake after their transmigration, and Osan'gar's thoughts betrayed him to be Aginor. As you'll recall, the two of them died together at the Eye. Besides, Be'lal was BFed. That usually means he isn't eligible for transmigration.

[capuga]

Is Halima Be'lal? I believe she freed Mog.(she was seen in Mog.s tent right before Mog. escaped) and we know that Mog. was freed by someone using Saidin. There are other things that make me think this is a possibility. I believe that she showed up when Rand and Nyn. used the Choedan Kal and fought with Eban. I'm in the middle of CoT, so there may be things I have not read yet.

 

Halima is Aran'gar who is Balthemal (sp?) - the Forsaken that was killed by the Green Man in tEotW - transmigrated into a new body. Apparently Balthemal was infamous for being a womanizing lecher, which is why one of the other Forsaken comment on the Dark One having a sense of humor by putting him into the body of a woman.

 

Edit: Beat to it by yoniy0

Edited March 4, 2011 by Mark Grayson

[plague fiend]

Is Halima Be'lal? I believe she freed Mog.(she was seen in Mog.s tent right before Mog. escaped) and we know that Mog. was freed by someone using Saidin. There are other things that make me think this is a possibility. I believe that she showed up when Rand and Nyn. used the Choedan Kal and fought with Eban. I'm in the middle of CoT, so there may be things I have not read yet.

No, she's Aran'gar, formally known as Balthamel. We've seen her and Osan'gar wake after their transmigration, and Osan'gar's thoughts betrayed him to be Aginor. As you'll recall, the two of them died together at the Eye. Besides, Be'lal was BFed. That usually means he isn't eligible for transmigration.

Ha, ha, ha. I meant Balthamel/Aran'gar, sorry. I just posted something about the Forsaken earlier. I'm starting to wonder what was in my Wheaties. I don't know why(Wheaties???), but I got the names mixed up. Thanks...

[vanceme]

How the heck did the white tower end up with an inventory of every cuendillar piece ever made? Don't have my bwb on me but I thought the wt was established quite a bit after the breaking. Question 2. Why do I keep getting angry at my phone for not autospelling words like cuendillar?

[yoniy0]

Why do I keep getting angry at my phone for not autospelling words like cuendillar?

That's an easy one.

 

More to the point, do you mind giving the chapter (an Egwene PoV?) that made you believe they do? It's not something I know how to search for.

[mb]

Actually, the seals were not at White Tower at any time. They were scattered to various places during the Breaking. I guess their starting locations were not any further than were they were found at.

This page tells where::

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/seals.html

[Eowyn]

Doing my wotrr and have 2 questions on TGH

 

1) Why does Hurin not pick up the smell of violence on Ingtar given his deeds the night the Horn was stolen?

 

2) Who gives the order to bar the gates to anyone leaving Fal Dara before the Horn is stolen? It seems to me that Ingtar would be the most obvious suspect, however, it seems many believe it was Moraine.

[mb]

First question, perhaps Ingtar did not participate in the violent parts.

 

Second question, this is what the Encyclopaedia site tells::

The gates are closed as well. Rand asks if the order came from Lord Agelmar. Tema explains that he did not receive the order directly but who else would issue such an order.7

It was not Agelmar. (TGH,Ch6) Most likely it was Moiraine.

[Eowyn]

1) Ingtar most likely slew the guards at the dog gate, allowing the Trollocs in, so therefore Hurin should have smelled violence on him (see below quote). Was a Black Ajah member or Ishy able to ward against that?

 

"Their throats were cut," Ingtar said. "Both good men, and yet they were butchered like pigs. It was done from inside. Someone killed them, then opened the gate. Someone would get close to them without suspicion. Someone they knew."

 

2) In reference to the order to bar the gates, I am aware what the Encyclopedia says, but I disagree with it. Ingtar could easily have pretended the message came from Agelmar and the guards would not question it. And Moiraine, with all her belief in ta'veren, probably would not have thought it necessary.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Eowyn

[Sharaman]

1) Hurin smells violence but he can't necessarily tell if its "evil" violence. Ingtar would smell of violence that night but so would every other person in the Fal Dara keep who had been fighting with the fades and trollocs that got inside.

2) Was Hurin even there that night? He's introduced to us later as the expedition to retrieve the HoV starts.

[yoniy0]

1) Why does Hurin not pick up the smell of violence on Ingtar given his deeds the night the Horn was stolen?

That's a good question. To answer @Sharaman, the scent of violence should linger on murderers for a time, and murder's supposed to smell worse than killing in a battle. Perhaps it was Liandrin that did it. After all, when he confesses to Rand, it's letting the archer into the city that's burdening him, not killing his friends. You'd think he might feel worse about it, if he were to do it himself, wouldn't you?

 

2) Who gives the order to bar the gates to anyone leaving Fal Dara before the Horn is stolen? It seems to me that Ingtar would be the most obvious suspect, however, it seems many believe it was Moraine.

If you want, Luckers did a piece about The Fal Dara Lockdown that you might find interesting. I think it was quite good.

[vanceme]

Why do I keep getting angry at my phone for not autospelling words like cuendillar?

That's an easy one.

 

More to the point, do you mind giving the chapter (an Egwene PoV?) that made you believe they do? It's not something I know how to search for.

 

It isn't an egewene pov. In TGH in one of the scenes with siuan and moiraine, moiraine thinks to herself that every piece of cuendillar ever made was recorded in the WT. Especially the 7 seals, which are remembered especially. I feel like its weird that the WT would have this list considering the book also says the making was lost during the breaking and the WT (if I remember correctly) was established after the breaking

[yoniy0]

It isn't an egewene pov. In TGH in one of the scenes with siuan and moiraine[...]

Yes, I see it now:

Only seven like it had been made; everything ever made of heartstone was recorded in the White Tower, and those seven were remembered above all. Siuan Sanche stared at it as she would have at a viper on her pillow.

Chalk it down to early-book-ism.

[Luckers]

I don't find it odd that the Age of Legends kept very careful track of everything made of cuendillar--unbreakable things have the potential of growing cluttersome over time, and people who live 700 years themselves would realise this. I fact, the number of utterly useless things that are made of cuendillar might be why tracking and control was begun. If people are wandering around making their cups into the most ultimate form of not-biodergadable simply because they could, someone would need to step in and put strictures in place to track and control the creation of cuendillar.

 

As such the chance of this directory surviving the Breaking even though the making did not doesn't surprise me.