Mythology and Paganism

[Rasheta Ardashir]

You loves me.  ;)

 

good thing too. LOL

[Vanion]

Now then!!

 

Mythology and Paganism..!

 

Historically, the two are one in the same when seen from the point of the Catholics and Christians. Which is ironic, since "God" was once part of the Roman Pantheon.

 

We owe the current dominance of Catholicism and Christianity to Rome. In particular, Caesar Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus, more commonly known as Emperor Constantine. After his Edict of Milan, in 313, which issues the tolerance of religion throughout the empire, many sects of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic Christians sprang up.

 

These are the same people which later revolted within the Empire and tore down all the other religions in the region. Awful nice of them, eh? Go against the edict that made their sects possible, without which their religion would have likely been stamped out. Way to follow the word of your God and the whole good will towards your fellow man! Kudos!

 

It is because of Constantine and his empowering Christianity throughout the Roman Empire that it survived.

 

On a side note, this is also the man who rebuilt the city of Byzantium, which was then renamed Constantinople. Which is, you've guessed it, Istanbul.

 

Historically, if you look at all the trouble caused by the Catholics and Christians, it kind of makes you wonder how different the world would be if Constantine had never risen to power.

 

Professing to be Christian prior to 311 was pretty much a death sentence in the Roman Empire. The Edict of Milan changed this, since it required people to be tolerant of the religion.

 

Now, the Catholics and Christians have been trying to stamp our Paganism (which subsequently includes Mythology) since their founding. I have read the Bible, and sure, it says in Exodus 20:3-6;

 

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

 

I personally find this funny, since the Bible also says that you have but to ask for forgiveness, and God shall grant you absolution. Yet it CLEARLY says RIGHT there, "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me" in Exodus. Doesn't sound like a very forgiving God, does it? It actually sounds like if you screw up, your children, and your children's children are going to be paying for it! So sayeth the word of God! lmao

 

Also, after Eve ate the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he cursed her with the pain of child birth and also said to her, "your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you". God basically gave man slaves in women. Kind of sounds like something a MAN would write, doesn't it? I have a hard time believing that God would give out slaves and basically say, "From here on, you shall be Adam's slut for the rest of your days! Now get in the kitchen and make him a sammich!". As I recall, Adam ate the fruit too. He got off easy, and got a slave to boot! WTF?

 

So... how is it that we are expected to buy into something which was so obviously written by man to suit his own selfish needs? I aint buying into it. Don't drink the kool-aid! Thats what they want!

 

Right now, I will say, I am not bashing anyone's religion. Catholic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Islamic, whatever. I don't much care. I have no issue with religion. I have issues with the idiots who take religion to far and start killing people because of it. Religion has been at the root of every major war in the history of the world. For something that often promotes peace, I find it difficult to understand how people can use religion to justify slaughter.

 

So, I would be considered a Pagan. I've been called a Pagan enough times. And a "Heathen". Do I care? Nope. Not a bit. I am Native. So, who do I worship? Gitche Manitou. The Great Spirit. The Creator of all things and the Giver of Life. As a mythical aspect, Manitou would be comparable to spirit, the balance and harmony between all life, similar to the East Asian concept of qi (Chi), which in simpler terms can refer to the spirit of a person. Not to be confused with the Soul, but "spirit" as in energy.

 

As a Native and worshiper of Gitche Manitou, I believe that all things in nature have a balance and a spirit. This is not limited to animals, but extends to plants, rocks and so on. All things are connected. Gitche Manitou is often referred to as The God of Nature, or the Spirit of Nature, also, it has been referred to as "The All-Father" in some cases.

 

This can be seen as mythological as it were, as can many things. Take a look at Norse Mythology and their Gods. Odin, Loki, Fenrir, Thor, etc. A very rich pantheon of Gods and Goddesses. This pantheon is also comparable to the Greek pantheon, where you have Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Apollo, Ares, etc. Again, a very rich pantheon, steeped in cultural beliefs. These pantheons also share a very similar hierarchy and certain traits of Godhood. You have a King of Gods, Odin or Zeus respectively. You've got dudes tossing lightning about, again, Thor and Zeus respectively. You've a Queen of the Gods, Frigg and Hera again, respectively. Now you've got the place they reside. In Norse Mythology, you've got Asgard. In Greek Mythology, you've got Olympus.

 

If we go back even further in history, we have the Sumerians, who were hundreds of years ahead of any other civilization and had a very robust religious system some 2500 years BEFORE the supposed birth of Jesus Christ. They were the the first civilization to create a system of writing. Detailed in what is known as the Eridu Genesis, part of the Sumerian Creation Myth, is speaks of a great flood sent to eradicate mankind, and mentions how Enki, one of the Sumerian Gods, gives instructions to Atra-hasis on the construction of an "Ark". Bare in mind, this was written on a tablet discovered in Nippur and was dated to the 18th Century BC.

 

Bare in mind, this was just from a single tablet which was discovered, as a great deal was destroyed over the centuries following the fall of Sumeria. However, this is a civilization that, at its peak, had technology which was not discovered by other civilizations for hundreds of years. It is theorized and supported by religious icons and writings that the Gods of the Sumerians descended from the skies and brought them technology and educated them. The carvings of these Gods look curiously like aliens, which I find humorous, along with the fact that other supposed alien encounters mention aliens which are described as looking almost identical to how the Sumerians described their Gods.

 

Anyways.. I have ranted long enough. In closing... All religion, be it mythological, pagan or current mainstream religions, are all derived from some form of past mythology. And please, try to remember, all religious accounts are written by man. The bible was written over of span of at least 1600 years before full completion by over 40 different authors. Also, take into account that many manuscripts were rejects from inclusion in the Bible by a council of priests, and the rejected works were then destroyed so as not to "confuse" the masses. Nice excuse.

 

Also, raise your hand if you knew the Torah was actually the first 5 books of the Bible! *raises his hand!*

 

Anyways.. I'm done now lol

 

 

[Rasheta Ardashir]

I apologize for what is about to happen, history is my Major and Van started it...points at his post. *ggls*

 

Also, raise your hand if you knew the Torah was actually the first 5 books of the Bible!

*raises hand* There are people who didn't know that???? I don't think you can use past tense though the Torah still is the first five books of the bible. (We are talking Old Testament btw. ;))

 

We owe the current dominance of Catholicism and Christianity to Rome. In particular, Caesar Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus, more commonly known as Emperor Constantine. After his Edict of Milan, in 313, which issues the tolerance of religion throughout the empire, many sects of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic Christians sprang up.

That's only partly true, Constantine did indeed make it so that Christianity was tolerated within the empire, however the religions you mentioned were already thriving in the "underground" he just allowed them to come out into the light as it were. Also the funny thing about Constantine is that he had, supposedly, a religious experience which is why he made the edict in the first place. At the battle of Battle of the Milvian Bridge Constantine  saw a cross of light above the sun, and with it the Greek words "Εν Τούτῳ Νίκα". The Latin translation is in hoc signo vinces—"In this sign, you shall conquer". Anyway the emperor didn't exactly know what that meant but supposedly that night he had a dream in which Christ told him that he should use the sign against his enemies. After that Constantine converted to Christianity and Rome became a safe place for the Christians and not such a safe place for people following the "old religion."

 

As a side note about the battle of Milvian Bridge, its interesting to me that for all intents and purposes the Emperor turned Christ into a war god. Yet in the bible it says that God is love, and turn the other cheek etc. Makes me pause to think a bit lemme tell ya...anyway moving on.

 

Doesn't sound like a very forgiving God, does it? It actually sounds like if you screw up, your children, and your children's children are going to be paying for it! So sayeth the word of God!

Welllllll you know you just have to take the bible with a grain of salt. I have read it before and my eyes start to twitch with all the inaccuracies of it. However, as a pagan its a good thing to HAVE one so when the Jehovah witnesses knock on my door on Sat. mornings I can invite them in pull it out and comense arguing with them, Its fun for me. Anyway getting back to your point, from what I understand from people who actually study the bible, is that the Old Testament is sort of like guidelines for the people of the time. And when Jesus came to earth asking him for forgiveness washes away your sin etc. In other words if you F**k up in the old testament you will pay for it forever. If you F**k up in the new you will be okay if you call upon god. That's just what I understand I don't know how accurate that is because I don't study the bible religiously.

 

I have to comment on Van's Adam and Eve comments. *ggls* First off Van that was hilarious thanks for that about to head out to school and I needed something to crack me up. Anyway I have more to add about this involving a different view of Lucifer/Satan/fallen one...whatever you wanna call him. Sadly I AM about to head out so i'll have to get to it later. But before that I wanted to say that Van the Catholics used to say that the reason Adam made it out mostly free other then he and Eve were thrown out of the garden was because it was Eve's "Original Sin." Therefore after her all women were paying for Eve's sin etc.

 

And Van i'll get to the rest of your post after school. *ggls*

[Millon]

How do you follow after posts like these? I wanted to post something aboput how I liked to watch the Disney cartoon Gargoyles with my nephew when I sent him off to school. Moving pictures make me smile....yay.

 

It borrowed heavily from Celtic-Arthurian and Norse mythologies. Never realized I was learning something until I started to feed my curiosity about mythos. I have always been interested in mythology because of it's origin tales and folklore tales.

 

There was an island where a cat and a mouse once lived. Life was good. Plenty of food for both until one day they noticed the water level steadily beginning to rise. Frantically they searched for a means to save themselves.

 

The mouse says to the cat, "I will hollow out a fig tree to make a raft that we may sale to the island on the horizon and save ourselves" The earnestly agreed and began to gather food for itself and the mouse.

 

When the raft was complete they pushed off. After the first day the cat and mouse realized that the island was much farther away than it had seemed and food began to run out. When the food was finally gone the mouse suggested they sleep to avoid there hunger. The cat agreed and laid itself to sleep. until. a sound of scraping woke him. The cat enquires on the sound and the mouse replies he heard nothing. The cat sleeps again, only to be woken by the sound of scraping again. The cat asks again what the sound was only to have the mouse say he heard nothing. The cat lays himself to sleep once more. This time to find water seeping into the boat from a hole in the hull. "You have eaten the ship!" and diving out of the boat the cat chases the mouse.

 

Finally reaching the shore the mouse swiftly digs out a burrow to escape the cat. The cat seeing this says "I will sit here and wait for the mouse to emerge. He must come out to eat soon". Unknown to the cat the mouse had dug out of the burrow on the other side of the island and escaped. The cat sat to watch the hole until he died from hunger.

 

That's why cats hate mice and will sit and watch a mouse hole for hours. This is my favorite story from a collection origin tales. I can't remember who compiled them or the origin of this story/ I'll have to look it up when I get home tonight. I'll follow up.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

I wanted to post something aboput how I liked to watch the Disney cartoon Gargoyles with my nephew when I sent him off to school. Moving pictures make me smile....yay.

 

It borrowed heavily from Celtic-Arthurian and Norse mythologies. Never realized I was learning something until I started to feed my curiosity about mythos. I have always been interested in mythology because of it's origin tales and folklore tales.

*laughs* I love that show! I have season one and part one of Season two...I dunno if that makes me a sad person or not...probably not. *laughs* It does borrow very very heavily from the Celtic-Arthurian tales. There is even some Shakespeare thrown in for good measure.

 

Van i forgot to add in the above that Constantine's mother was a Christan so partly she was the reason he converted over, as well as the battle of the bridge. Also the first five books of the bible (Torah) we are talking about is both the Old Testament and we are talking the Jewish religion the Catholics don't call it that. I thought I should make that distinction *laughs* Anyway moving on *ggls*

 

Religion has been at the root of every major war in the history of the world. For something that often promotes peace, I find it difficult to understand how people can use religion to justify slaughter.

Not totally true, most of the pre-christan wars were not based on Religion they were based on land gain, and the simple, if you are a Spartan, enjoyment of war, the slight of one country to another etc. The Gods were called before or after a battle but they were not the cause of the battle. After Christianity was the dominant religion was when the wars turned religious in nature the most well known of course was the Crusades. I could go on and on about them but that isn't really the topic its just an example i'm using. *laughs* So i'll leave it at that.

 

So, I would be considered a Pagan. I've been called a Pagan enough times. And a "Heathen"

Heathen...that's a new one. I've been called many things but never that. *laughs* Most recently a bride of Satan...that was kind of a shock to me. *laughs* Took me several seconds to respond to that one. LOL

 

Detailed in what is known as the Eridu Genesis, part of the Sumerian Creation Myth, is speaks of a great flood sent to eradicate mankind, and mentions how Enki, one of the Sumerian Gods, gives instructions to Atra-hasis on the construction of an "Ark". Bare in mind, this was written on a tablet discovered in Nippur and was dated to the 18th Century BC.

Something to remember is that all religions are based off others, Even the bible and Christianity. (Which Van says latter in his rant *ggls* I just needed to say it as well) Something Apollo tells me pretty much daily is that i've been his since the moment I was born the first time, however he's taken on different names and faces to fit the times. That same kind of rule applies here, the stories of the bible can be found in other religions dating back to before the time of Christ. Also remember too that the first four books of the bible (Mathew, mark, luke, and John) were written well after the death of Christ the oldest (which if memory serves is the book of Mark.) was written about 70 years after the death of Christ. My brother adds that they were written by people who were not the apostles who the books are named after. Also historians believe that they are based off other books that are lost now. So you can see how things are always based off other things. I know that was kind of a long way to say what I did but there you go. LOL

 

Anyway I have to say as well that i'm not anti-chirstian or any other religion, i'm anti the followers who cannot allow everyone to believe as they will.

[LilyElizabeth]

Well, I'm anti-people who don't take the time to learn about things for themselves, and expect a professional religious person to tell them what to think. Not thinking for yourself is what causes most of the world's problems. I know it's just laziness for the most part, but refusing to exercise your mind, that's not the place to be lazy, in my opinion. And, like Rashi, I'm anti-people who tell others what they have to believe. Sadly, I know more about their religion than they do, most of them, and I have the right to choose otherwise. I actually used to BE one of them for 25 years.

 

Brilliant summaries, both of you, Van and Rashi. I don't see huge discrepancies between your thoughts. Just details, for the most part. Van, my respect for you has just risen several levels. I had no idea!

 

I just want to caution everyone to be careful to be respectful of other religions. I wouldn't want to lose anyone over a thoughtless comment. You're all special to me.

 

 

[Rasheta Ardashir]

Lily, I hope that my above was not taken as i'm anti a certain religion because i'm not. I'm just saying historically one thing or another. I do apologize if its misunderstood. I am a pagan and proud of it but that doesn't mean I don't allow others to have there own religion. :)

[Vanion]

Because of the Census in Canada... Jedai Knight is now a legally recognized religion...

 

There is a spot on the Census to write down what religion you follow, should you wish to answer that question... Legally, if a certain number of people claim to follow a certain religion, it becomes an official religion, and since so many people put it down as a joke, on a federal document... it became on official religion.

 

Kind of sad, isn't it?

 

I am trying to wrap my mind around just how many fanboys moved to Canada when they found out about this...

[Rasheta Ardashir]

It is in England too Van. I worry about the world sometimes when I hear things like that. But really who am I to proclaim something isn't right for that person. If it makes them happy to be called jedi knight...go for it. *laughs*

[ed2funy]

Will read all this later....

;D

Looks good....

[Millon]

O.K. So that was the Cliff's notes version of the story. It's an African folklore tale. It's in a compilation of stories called "Classic folk tales from around the world" It's printed by Leopard with an introduction by Robert Nye. It has alot of the original tales that spawned modern folklore such as Hansel and Grettel, Beauty and the Beast and Ceres and Proserpine.

 

A lot of folk lore can represent minor parts of mythology which is both parts religion and spoken history. Such as tales given by shanachie as both legends and history in old Celt lifestyles.

[LilyElizabeth]

Rashi, that was just a reminder. No worries, hon.

 

[Vanion]

And for the record, I did not forget about Constantine's mother being a Christian, nor did I forget about the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. I simply glossed over that battle because Maxentius drowned in the Tiber river. So anti-climactic...

 

And it was a LABARUM that Constantine fought under, just to clarify. NOT a cross. The flag was suspended from a crossbar, which looks like a cross, a vexillum, to be exact. Him fighting under the standard of a cross was just hearsay. The labarum is the "Chi-Rho"

 

This is the Chi-Rho...

 

Its Christian significance is because it is the roman lettering for the first letters of Christ's name, which is Roman was "Khristos".

 

Bachelor's Degree in History, yo.  ;)

 

Dont rely on the writings of Lactantius, who was a CHRISTIAN author, and said that the heavenly symbol Constantine dreamed of fighting under was a Lain cross with a rounded top. There is no actual evidence he used that symbol. Ever. Eusebius is more well known for his accounts of Constantine using the Chi-Rho.

 

*takes a bow*

 

Thank you, thank you. I am loving that fact that I can remember ANY of this with the copious amounts of alcohol I have drank between then and now!  :D

[Corki]

Its Christian significance is because it is the roman lettering for the first letters of Christ's name, which is Roman was "Khristos".

Get the right lettering - it is Ancient Greek.