What's Going on at the Black Tower? (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Ok, so last we know Taim's freely letting Pevara pick men to bond. From tGS we know she and her crew never returned--though we don't know how long has passed since they left. Certainly there seems to be no concern over Tarna's absence, so it might have only been a day or two before the Seanchan attack.

 

From there we also know that the Rebels sent their own team who are very late in returning.

[firstfishman]

I thought they went to offer themselves to be bonded...

 

I know Taim's last comment was, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". She thought it was funnt because she had never heard the saying before. All of Taim's cronies laughed.

 

Let the Lord of Chaos Rule is a darkfriend saying. I think Tain isnt who we think he is. Demandred maybe?

[Sentinel78]

Now that the BA and Mesaana have failed to keep the White Tower split, the Shadow's main goals will likely be keeping the White Tower separate from Rand and the Seanchan.  This is why it was surprising that Taim agreed to let the Aes Sedai bond Ashaman was Warders, because from what we've seen so far is that the bond between two channelers of different genders brings them closer together, despite any feelings they had towards each other beforehand.  His only real motivation for this would be to create a liability -- kill one of the bonded members and have a chance to instantly kill the other?  Maybe.

 

We know Rand moved half the Ashaman out of the Black Tower, with maybe 500 remaining, and 100 of those being Taim's lapdogs.  It doesn't seem like Taim really has the numbers to essentially bring in Myrddraal and start converting channelers to the Shadow en masse or start using Compulsion on everyone.  Somebody would surely notice something happening and Travel the heck outta there. 

 

So I guess the question is why would the Rebel/White Tower embassies to the Black Tower have just stayed there?  My guess is that Taim is doing something with both embassies to deliberate piss off both sets of Aes Sedai and remove any chance of Rand or Egwene obtaining a Black/White Tower alliance.  Whether he killed them, bonded them, tortured them, converted them to the Shadow, etc., I have no idea.  But the result is going to be Egwene very upset at Rand, hopefully with them uniting to take out the Black Tower which will be "rent in blood and fire".

 

 

I think Tain isnt who we think he is. Demandred maybe?

 

*sigh*

[Vulgir]

points to bring up

 

1. In the Forsaken meeting, are there Ashaman present? I tend to think there are. The messenger that came to get Graendel and the workers she comments on around Morridins Tower are all in black.

 

2. Egwene mentions a few times that she is worried about Faolin and the group she sent to the BT.These events will be interesting to see play out, as they most likely will be explained in the next book, which will possibly give us insight into Taim's famous "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule".

 

3. Im truly interested in seeing the Two rivers Ashaman in action, and see how things play out there. I was under the impression that they were among the strongest channelers at the BT, because of Verrin's comments about the strength of the girls from the Two Rivers.  Also the fact that Saml al'Seen (a two rivers lad) is at the gates at the end of KoD seems significant.

 

The BT has really been a sleeping giant, and the action that we have seen from it, though impressive, is nothing compaired to what i hope is to come.

[StefanR]

Additionally, we know that Moridin has access to at least SOME male channellers. In TGS when he sends a gateway to Graendal an Asha Man comes through to tell her that she needs to go meet Moridin.

[wvlr2]

1.    In the WT AS POV that we got at the end of KoD, the AS had not even been given permission to bond anyone yet and they were already making statements like "we don't want anyone that looks like they might be going crazy.   We don't want anyone that is too young."

So even before they are given permission - they are acting like they can be picky about who they get.    Logically speaking - it will only get worse, once they get permission.

 

2.    The WT AS and the Rebal AS apparently got to the BT at approximately the same time.   The Rebal AS have permission from Rand and KNOW IT and they know the restrictions (quantity) he placed on them.    The WT AS though (I think) have higher AS Rank than the Rebals and probably do not even consider some of the Rebal AS to be full AS - so it is quite likely that there will be a significant period of "argument" between the two groups.    This is likely to take a significant amount of time.

 

3.    I don't think that Logain took all the captured Red AS with him.    If he did not, then both the Rebal AS and WT AS might have to deal with those issues as well.

 

4.    Even in normal situations AS like to get to know the Warders before they bond them and get his permission before actually bonding him.   This also is likely to take a significant amount of time.

 

5.    Most important - have you ever gon shopping with a woman?    It will likely take them forever!

[lsm]

according to the timeline, pevara's group has been there a month when bathe in light on dragonmount happens, and just like the salidar group - they are not back. even if both aes sedai group didnt meet, they both should have travelling now assuming the pevara group got a warder, so them not being back is awfully wrong

 

as for moridin's guy.. i just thought he was a normal person, i think that part might be worth a look at again

[Anoxanmore]

1.    In the WT AS POV that we got at the end of KoD, the AS had not even been given permission to bond anyone yet and they were already making statements like "we don't want anyone that looks like they might be going crazy.   We don't want anyone that is too young."

So even before they are given permission - they are acting like they can be picky about who they get.    Logically speaking - it will only get worse, once they get permission.

 

2.    The WT AS and the Rebal AS apparently got to the BT at approximately the same time.   The Rebal AS have permission from Rand and KNOW IT and they know the restrictions (quantity) he placed on them.    The WT AS though (I think) have higher AS Rank than the Rebals and probably do not even consider some of the Rebal AS to be full AS - so it is quite likely that there will be a significant period of "argument" between the two groups.    This is likely to take a significant amount of time.

 

3.    I don't think that Logain took all the captured Red AS with him.    If he did not, then both the Rebal AS and WT AS might have to deal with those issues as well.

 

4.    Even in normal situations AS like to get to know the Warders before they bond them and get his permission before actually bonding him.   This also is likely to take a significant amount of time.

 

5.    Most important - have you ever gon shopping with a woman?    It will likely take them forever!

To be fair, shopping for men is quite a bit easier than clothes, if you've ever tried on women's close before.

[Vulgir]

 

as for moridin's guy.. i just thought he was a normal person, i think that part might be worth a look at again

 

He was dressed all in black, and aparently summoned his own gateway, that leans to Asha'man. Now some people will say that he didnt summon his own gateway, but to weave something u have to see the weaves, and there was no one else in the room when Graendal was summoned to Morridins place, she was the first to arrive, and they used the same gateway to get there as the messenger used to get to her.

[StefanR]

Also, in Graendals POV, I believe she thought it was an asha man too

[wingedearth]

Where are all the Dreadlords? Shouldn't the Dark One have an army of Dreadlord channelers by now? Maybe some of the Black Tower people are Dreadlords in disguise. 

 

In Eye of the World and The Great Hunt, darkfriends seemed to be under the impression that they would be made into Dreadlords if they served loyally. Since there were Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars, the Dark One does not have to be free for this to happen.

 

Or maybe Taim is building up the Black Tower as a Dreadlord training camp.

[somathus]

Also, in Graendals POV, I believe she thought it was an asha man too

 

I just reread it.  She does not think that.  I believe it was a normal messenger from Moridin (all his servants wear black livery).  Who knows who opened the gateway.  It doesn't really matter.

 

Asha'Man aren't generally depicted as wearing all black, but a black coat.

[somathus]

I thought they went to offer themselves to be bonded...

 

I know Taim's last comment was, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". She thought it was funnt because she had never heard the saying before. All of Taim's cronies laughed.

 

Let the Lord of Chaos Rule is a darkfriend saying. I think Tain isnt who we think he is. Demandred maybe?

 

Actually, it is a phrase from a song/poem.  

[Crael123]

Where are all the Dreadlords? Shouldn't the Dark One have an army of Dreadlord channelers by now? Maybe some of the Black Tower people are Dreadlords in disguise. 

 

In Eye of the World and The Great Hunt, darkfriends seemed to be under the impression that they would be made into Dreadlords if they served loyally. Since there were Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars, the Dark One does not have to be free for this to happen.

 

Or maybe Taim is building up the Black Tower as a Dreadlord training camp.

 

Taim built the black tower on Rands orders. that is highly unlikely it is a dreadlord training camp.

 

but i agree with your first point. i want me some dreadlords. but they arent supposed to reveal themselves until the last battle

[Vulgir]

 

Who knows who opened the gateway.  It doesn't really matter.

 

Asha'Man aren't generally depicted as wearing all black, but a black coat.

 

yes it does matter, because with the evidence provided you can link the BT to Morridin, if u can prove who opend the gateway, ie the messenger was an Ashaman. secondly morridins livery and the black towers are the same, and the places are both decorated in red and black.

 

 

Or maybe Taim is building up the Black Tower as a Dreadlord training camp.

 

Taim built the black tower on Rands orders. that is highly unlikely it is a dreadlord training camp.

 

but i agree with your first point. i want me some dreadlords. but they arent supposed to reveal themselves until the last battle

 

There is alot of items to suggest that Taim is creating a dreadlord army. Some forshadowing for instance can be seen in the tension with Logain, and Taim's private lessons, as well as Kissman, who was one of Taim's men, recieving an order to kill Rand from Taim.

[Sentinel78]

Taim is totally building a Dreadlord army.  I mean, what the heck else is the guy doing if not that?  At this point every Darkfriend in Randland has probably been tested for the ability to channel. 

 

If I was Moridin, I'd put out the order for every male Darkfriend not doing something very important to head to the Black Tower for testing.  Even if they can't channel they can infiltrate the Legion of the Dragon.

[jemron]

Taim is totally building a Dreadlord army.  I mean, what the heck else is the guy doing if not that?  At this point every Darkfriend in Randland has probably been tested for the ability to channel. 

 

If I was Moridin, I'd put out the order for every male Darkfriend not doing something very important to head to the Black Tower for testing.  Even if they can't channel they can infiltrate the Legion of the Dragon.

 

Agreed.  I don't remember the exact percentages, but weren't there like over 200 Black Ajah that Verin knew about?  So, that's roughly 20% of all of the current Aes Sedai.  I would guess that the percentage of Dreadlords among the Asha'man is even higher than that.

[wingedearth]

There is alot of items to suggest that Taim is creating a dreadlord army. Some forshadowing for instance can be seen in the tension with Logain, and Taim's private lessons, as well as Kissman, who was one of Taim's men, recieving an order to kill Rand from Taim.

 

So shouldn't Rand already know about Taim, since there was a Ashaman assassination attempt on Rand already? Strange how Rand totally ignored the issue in The Gathering Storm.  A Black Tower in the service of the DO is not something to put on the back burner.  And that's another thing Rand could have used the Choden Kal for before destroying it.

[jemron]

Rand talked with Taim directly about the attack later.  Taim said he would put the names of the men who attacked him on the "traitors tree" or some such.

 

Also, I think that Logain has been reporting things about Taim's suspicious behavior to Rand, and I think Rand may have given Logain orders off-screen about what to do about it.  I'm one of those people who wants Logain to resolve the problem with Taim and the "dreadlords" that he's been training in the BT as opposed to Rand doing anything about it.  IMO, this is how Logain will receive the glory that Min forsaw.

[wingedearth]

Rand talked with Taim directly about the attack later.  Taim said he would put the names of the men who attacked him on the "traitors tree" or some such.

 

Also, I think that Logain has been reporting things about Taim's suspicious behavior to Rand, and I think Rand may have given Logain orders off-screen about what to do about it.  I'm one of those people who wants Logain to resolve the problem with Taim and the "dreadlords" that he's been training in the BT as opposed to Rand doing anything about it.  IMO, this is how Logain will receive the glory that Min forsaw.

 

In Caemlyn (in Eye of the World), Rand saw what a badass Logain was. That's the Logain we're still waiting to see.  Let the false Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

[Vulgir]

 

In Caemlyn (in Eye of the World), Rand saw what a badass Logain was. That's the Logain we're still waiting to see.  Let the false Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

I like Logain the way he is, and i really like the part where Logain talks about seeing Rand in Caemlynn, and says something like he was going to cause more trouble than himself then let out a laugh.

[clu7ch]

In all likelyhood if Taim is a super-baddie we've got a deus ex machina on our hands, He's probably one of the OTHER forsaken we know virtually nothing about. Moggy said that there were ....waht? 29 people with permission to use the TP, at one point, so I'd say that IF IF IF he's not just a device of his own creation, whether or not in league with the shadow, he's probably one of the others. We don't know their fates, all we know is that they weren't quite as strong as our 13.

[Chance]

While I would like to see another Dumai wells between Taim's and Logain's people, I don't think Logain gaining a crown, as Min saw, would come from winning a battle at the BT.  As for Taim training dreadlords, yeah, I do think that is happening. Just not on a large scale; and I think it still has to be hidden in some respects. If Logain is still going back to the BT, then there has to be some measure of control for Rand, and Taim not openly training drealords. There is also the issue that Elayne was sending patrols to the BT for inspection.  Maybe this has come up somewhere, just don't remember, but does the rebel AS at the BT know about the AS from the WT?  And wouldn't Logain be watching out for the AS Rand knows about being at the BT?  It just seems the BT issue will resolve by Taim and his people getting driven out of the BT without a major battle, and the BT and WT uniting. 

 

The only way I see a major blood-spurting battle at the BT is if Pervara and her group have been converted to black sisters and willing to throw fireballs at everybody including the rebel AS at the BT.

 

I still think that Rand has to go to the BT at some point. Namely because Nyn has to go to meet up with Myrelle and do the bond jumping thing with Lan. I don't see Rand and Nyn separating between now and TG.

 

 

[Sentinel78]

Maybe this has come up somewhere, just don't remember, but does the rebel AS at the BT know about the AS from the WT?

 

The WT doesn't even know about the WT embassy to the Black Tower, because that was decided by the Red Ajah leader Tsutsama or whatever her name was, and not the Hall.  I mean, Elaida sent 50 Aes Sedai to destroy the BT a few months ago in Randland.  How much credibility would she really have now sending Aes Sedai saying "Yeah, we want to bond you guys now, let's be buds"?

 

There's no way Egwene will find out about this unless Tsutsama fesses up, or Egwene starts wondering where Pevara/Tarna/Javindra are.

[Anoxanmore]

 

In Caemlyn (in Eye of the World), Rand saw what a badass Logain was. That's the Logain we're still waiting to see.  Let the false Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

I like Logain the way he is, and i really like the part where Logain talks about seeing Rand in Caemlynn, and says something like he was going to cause more trouble than himself then let out a laugh.

 

Logain, can see ta'veren, which is why he laughed. Much like Loial can.