"To die and Live again"

[Old Skool]

Err...nvm that last post...

 

I have not said that RJ has just drawn inspiration from Christianity, I have merely speculated upon the fact that there appears to be similiarities. Under no circumstances have I even suggested Christianity is the only source RJ has used in his creation of WOT.

 

Luckers, your assumption that my speculation is arrogance is your oppinion, yet you have misunderstood me. So before you accuse someone, you should read what they have written...once again...i merely pointed out similiarities and possible inspirations, I did not say that RJ is a Christian buff whom has drawn the WOT universe from one religion.

 

SinisterDeath, with you on the other hand I full heartedly agree that he has used elements of all religions, not in one bit do I disagree with you. But you too need to remember that I have not said he was just inspired by Christianity, because...

 

claiming he was 'inspired' by christanity only is pretty dumb

 

You also may have misinterpreted me, for that I am sorry that I was not so clear, and in future will be more clear. But once again, I totally agree with you on the idea of RJ retrieving his ideas from EVERYWHERE, and merely pointed out a few parallels.

[Luckers]

Those parallels though are tenuos, and if you had a familiarity with other religions you would see the base of what you are suggesting has much stronger connections to other religions.

 

Don't get me wrong, im not angry at you or anything, and im sorry if my post came accross as angry... im just saying that your trying to hard to see connections... and that i, coming from an athiest point of view and without any particalur investment in any particular religious view, can see the strength of different views on the text... and im sorry, but christianity is one of the weakest, probably because of its wide-scale appeal.

[Genesis_XVI]

your assumption that christianity must bear some great part in this is arrogant

 

How ironic..... :D

 

To acknowledge that Wot has drawn on so many cultures, histories, myths, legends and religions, then deny any link between the main charcter and a major historical figure (regardless of religious orientation) that fulfils a similar role - that of saviour - I believe is premature, and shortsighted.

 

There are links with christianity... just not between Rand and Jesus

 

Too harsh by far. The shedding of his blood to save mankind, his status as a leader of the light, whose purpose is to oppose a source of pure evil. These small similarities go on and on. And of course you expect to see them. All religions have people of significance who stand against evil; in this Rand is similar to all messiahs, and great leaders of similar vocation. These similarites are reflections of reflections Luckers, which if you ask me, directly fills the criteria for source of inspiration. If you're looking for something as obvious as "Hello, my name is Rand Jesus Christ Al'Thor" as proof of inspiration that isn't "tenuous", then yes, Rand was in no way inspired by Jesus. But if you're willing to acknowledge that an extremely significant figure in world history - an element of God in one of the world's largest religions - may have even in some way shaped another person - RJ's - opinion on what a messiah/saviour should accomplish, then you'd see that there are parallels.

 

Having said that, I would then go on to agree with many of Lucker's assertions. In fact, I just disagree with his general premise that there are no parallels between Rand and Jesus.

 

I think Rand's similarities with Jesus end at the reflection of reflections I spoke of. The fact is that Rand plays the part of saviour of mankind. As such, you expect to see parallels with all other messiahs who undertake a similar mission. Christ translates to Annointed One. Rand fits this description. The links between their missions are also very strong.

 

But the correlation that others have proposed just isn't there. Luckers is spot on (as is usually the case). The palm wounds and never healing wounds = stigmata... nope. Jesus was pierced through the wrists (As prominent academics would agree - which goes against alot of other writings, but the fact is the palms couldn't support the human body for a prolonged period of time). Spear of destiny... questionable at best. The fact that it inflicted a wound... Who-hoo... that's what weapons do. The fact that it was on the side... now that's cause for the word tenuous. Jesus, died... Rand lives. It just isn't strong enough. Then you add the very un-Christ things about Rand up: He has three girls on the go at once. He doesn't embody love. He is the reincarnated form of a soul. Christianity doesn't leave room for reincarnation as a belief. Despite the fact that Jesus is prophesised to come again, that takes his total upto 2. Not countless times.

 

I would just conclude that some things are inspired by Jesus - or maybe Jesus' role/mission - and most things aren't.

 

That's just me though.

 

- Always Genesis_XVI, all the time

 

:)

[Kaznen]

Also something about the wound on Christ's side that isn't understood by most people is that Jesus was already dead when he got stabbed in the side. The reason he was poked was he shouldn't have been dead. He was only on the cross for about 3 hours. It took St. Matt 2 1/2 days to die from crucifixion.

 

Pilate was going to release all three people on the crosses with broken legs, so Jesus should have just been in terrible pain, but alive.

 

The Romans stabbed him for why you may poke a dead animla with a stick. It was to see if he was alive.

 

I think Rand's wound on his side is to make sure he isn't invinceble. There has been many times in the series when it slowed him down, if not thwarted him. A lot of attention has been given to the wound by AS, AM and his friends. In general Randland the Christian references are few and best. Look to the Aiel for biblical references.

[Old Skool]

Well im pretty certain that wraps up this thread for now. Some good argument for both sides. This was my first time at posting on Dragonmount, although ive been looking at this site for half a year or so...but alot of controversy surrounds the subject, however I beleive that adds to the excitement that we WOT readers feed off.

 

I knoe I probably sound like a Christian Martyr, im nothing of the sort. I merely beleive in Christianity, I dont actually practise it. I am actually pissed off with religion at this point in time because im sick of the wars it causes. Religion seeks to find peace and blah blah blah, yet it is the single highest factor in world conflict...pretty dumb ey?

 

Anyway, ill enjoy some more arguments with SD and luckers in the future. Peace out guys (girls)!

[Kaznen]

Dude, you can't just wrap up a thread unles your a mod. *shakes head* And they usually do that when a thread gets super long or degrades into people just shouting insults.

 

Once posted they have a life of their own. They keep going until the people get bored, then they are forced down the list and a few weeks later somebody starts a new thread, saying the same things, and the argument starts anew. I can't remember if the flying thread is the second or third time it appeared. :P

[Old Skool]

Lol I was just politely acknowledging both sides of the story, and thanking those in which partook in the argument. I do not beleive there is too much to discuss furthur, but if there is...thats cool with me. I wouldnt mind my first thread to be super long...sounds a bit weeny saying that though. But meh...if anyone has much else to say...i aint stopping you.

[Luckers]

To acknowledge that Wot has drawn on so many cultures, histories, myths, legends and religions, then deny any link between the main charcter and a major historical figure (regardless of religious orientation) that fulfils a similar role - that of saviour - I believe is premature, and shortsighted.

 

My point involves this exactly. You see a mesiah like figure, and instantly assume a connection with jesus... but the reality is there is no similarities between their natures and roles. Theres a predisposition in the western world to see links to Jesus... and when valid, yeah sure, its a fascinating thing to study, but when not its just striving to see connections that really arn't there.

 

Too harsh by far. The shedding of his blood to save mankind, his status as a leader of the light, whose purpose is to oppose a source of pure evil. These small similarities go on and on. And of course you expect to see them. All religions have people of significance who stand against evil; in this Rand is similar to all messiahs, and great leaders of similar vocation.

 

Indeed, those things are a common religious theme... which is where my issue with using them to connect to christianity comes in. Its distortianism... in their pure states the sacrficices, actions and life of Jesus do not match that of Rand. And moreover if you wanted to pull up those points there are other religions that far more closely link with Rand's life and sacrifices then christianity.

 

Its like saying that christianity is based on witchcraft because both have elements of a three-fold god. At the most extreme and simple, yes the shapes look the same, but they arn't, and trying to twist them to appear the same when there are other more valid connections to be made seems exclusionistic... the addoption of one view because its popular.

 

That being said though, in the rough form of all religious type messiah heroes Rand and Jesus both fit, so don't get me wrong, i do understand what you are saying, im just trying to point out a different view...

[SinisterDeath]

Asside from not being jewish, wouldn't rand be closer to the jewish messiah then the christian one? :P *all I know about theres, is they basically believe he'll be a 'knight in shining armor, come to free there people ect'. Escentally a warrior type*

That and rand ain't no hippy! :P

[Lews Therin Telamon]

When you say rebirthed or whatever it was do you mean reincarnated in the same manner the Forsaken are being reincarnated? Id be seriously disappointed if thats what RJ has planned for Rand. How he dies and lives should be something totally new that we havent seen in WoT yet. Thats what im expecting anyway like the Rand/Moridin switching bodies thing I think itd be well good if they switched bodies

[Elan Tedronai]

i am suprised no body has figured this out yet.

 

 

lews therin telamon will assume control of rand's body and die at the last battle.

 

rand will live.aes sedai and ashaman make up and voila you got a new age and the wheel turns full circle

[demeroe]

i am suprised no body has figured this out yet.

 

 

lews therin telamon will assume control of rand's body and die at the last battle.

 

I wouldn't want it to be this was, it's like LTT getting another go at it. LTT is the Dragon from the last Age and he's had his shot, this should be Rand's turn, he's the one who has got this far.

You are also assuming that LTT is a real entity then? :D

[DaiAldazar]

I just voted yes, he will surbive. sorry, lol, I just wanted to say that

[Cybertrolloc]

Old Skool, just because you posed the question as black/white, doesn't mean that those are the only possible options--above all that's the main thing Lucker pointed out. Also dictionary cites are generally annoying, especially for a word as obscure as inspired.

 

On Rand/LTT, remember the other answers from the Aelfinn we know about:

 

1) Question about cleansing the male source? We never found out the specific answer.

 

2) What must I do to win the Last Battle and survive (something along that line)? North + East, South + West, the two must be as one (don't have the specific wording). I'm torn on whether that last part refers to the Rand/LTT situation or the Finn didn't let Rand get away with a two-for-one question (that's why the place nearly fell apart ;) ). The last part was "to live you must die" iirc.

[Old Skool]

Old Skool, just because you posed the question as black/white, doesn't mean that those are the only possible options

 

What the??!! Its a simple yes or no question. It isnt referring to all the eventualaities Rand may face at the LB. I wasnt curious asking people what would happen to Rand, only if they belived he would be ressurected...so um I wasnt actually stating they were the only possible options. I think you need to read more carefully...In no situation have I said THIS is what is going to happen...speculation anyone? Am I allowed to do it? Im not so narrow minded as some. I keep a general and open view on what may happen at the end.

 

Also if you cant get a clear meaning from a dictionary...where are you supposed to find that meaning...they were created for a reason.

[Luckers]

Any linguist will tell you language has fluid meaning depending on context and social growth. Dictionaries are tools... not sacred compendiums of set states. The best way to learn the meaning of a word is to witness its usages in real life.

 

That being said, i dont really know specifically what Cybertrolloc was refering to.

[joeybsmash]

didn't mat already die and live again? do the finns keep that as a stock answer? RJ fought in vietnam. he probably learned there that the only way to live is to face death, maybe even to "die" from your wounds and be resussitated(sp?). when ever anyone asks about WoT i tell them that it is basicly a story about the second coming of christ.

[TheDiceAgain...]

joey, first of all, yes Matt has already died and been brought back to life. It happened in Camelyn when Matt was killed by Rahvin and then brought back when Rand balefied the hell out of him (Rahvin, that is). The begining of this tread is actually referring to Rand's answer from the Finns (to live you must die, or something to that effect) and was just mis-quoted.

 

As to the second coming of Christ thing, I tend to agree somewhat, but don't let the comparative theology buffs around here (yes, Luckers, I'm talking to you :D ) hear you say that. They tend to get a bit annoyed when anyone makes that case that WoT is in anyway based on anything remotely Christian...

[Luckers]

To be fair we have good reason...

[Jorik Alarin]

To be fair we have good reason...

 

Luckers this is my observation and just that, MY observation, but you say that you are Atheist, i dont buy it. From your rather heated, and seemingly angry rhetoric you seem to be ANTI-theist and specifically anti christian. You dont just not believe in god, or gods, you actively go out of your way to attack people who do. Are people of faith (any faith) are less intelligent than you because they choose to believe in a higher power, or a greater purpose, and therefore likely to see simliarities in the "fiction" that they read? The similarities are there if the observer believes they are, thats the thing about belief. I'm sure an educated theologian could point out many, many Judaeo Christian similarities between the history of the judaic tribes and the history of Randland, just like im sure an Eastern Religion specialist could point out the similarities between the story and their beliefs. I think that was RJ's intention all along but you seem very angry when western religions draw their conclusions, im curious as to why? Is the church opressing you, are you in a christian re-education camp, ARE there christian re-education camps some where i dont know about? Do you believe that because they want to draw these comparisons they are "arrogant", or is it just they are arrogant because they don't agree with your personal views?

[TheDiceAgain...]

Is the church opressing you,

 

Obscure reference:

 

*insert two serfs making mud pies in a field*

 

"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!

[Jorik Alarin]

Monty Python FTW.

Seriously though, "How do you know hes the king?"

"Well he must be the King, he hasnt got Shite all over him."

 

Edit; thank you profanity filter.

[Luckers]

To be fair we have good reason...

 

Luckers this is my observation and just that' date=' MY observation, but you say that you are Atheist, i dont buy it. From your rather heated, and seemingly angry rhetoric you seem to be ANTI-theist and specifically anti christian. You dont just not believe in god, or gods, you actively go out of your way to attack people who do. Are people of faith (any faith) are less intelligent than you because they choose to believe in a higher power, or a greater purpose, and therefore likely to see simliarities in the "fiction" that they read? The similarities are there if the observer believes they are, thats the thing about belief. I'm sure an educated theologian could point out many, many Judaeo Christian similarities between the history of the judaic tribes and the history of Randland, just like im sure an Eastern Religion specialist could point out the similarities between the story and their beliefs. I think that was RJ's intention all along but you seem very angry when western religions draw their conclusions, im curious as to why? Is the church opressing you, are you in a christian re-education camp, ARE there christian re-education camps some where i dont know about? Do you believe that because they want to draw these comparisons they are "arrogant", or is it just they are arrogant because they don't agree with your personal views?[/quote']

 

*blinks* *blinks again*

 

I'm an anti-theist because i disagree with the need to contort a fictional work to represent a religious ideology that it doesn't fit?

 

Incidently, you do know theist means god, right? I've argued many times for allusions to gods and religions within WoT. The whole concept of the Wheel of Time itself is present in many eastern religions, and the characters have strong religious backing.

 

I'm a comparative religion studies major--an educated theologian as you like to phrase it--and im sorry but judeo-christian references in WoT are few and far between and those few that bare any resembelance at all have far stronger pre-existing resembelences to other religious practices.

 

I come at religion from a clinical viewpoint--i need to, its the nature of my degree--if i disdain christianity im as like to screw up my facts as i am were i to give christian ideology too much weight, and to be frank i dont personally care either way-- Which is in part why i dislike when westerners examine questions of religion solely from a judeo-christian base--don't get me wrong though, i find the study of judeo-christian influence on pop-culture fascinating, but the need to distort something into the image of christian ideological significance when that significance is already present from the influence of others sources is flawd. Indeed, its always wrong to go looking for the presense of something... you'll find a way to find it, but that doesn't mean its actually there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'll start this by saying that I am a Christian, and the reasons for my personal faith are far to complex to enter into here. I say that because I agree with Luckers. There are SOME Christian type influences here. And various influences from MANY other religions, social structures, value systems, mythologies, and cultures. All filtered through pure, unadulterated fiction.

 

Connections are most often in the eye of the beholder. That is, a Bhuddist will find Bhuddist references, a Jew will find their symbology, etc. We filter the text through our own perceptions and history/understanding, so we often find what we are familiar with. Thats one reason that good authors (and storytellers, aka historians) are often OLD. They have much more personal experience to draw on to give their world depth and range. SO ...

 

Are there any Christian symbols/influences? Yes.

 

Is this a Jesus myth? No.

 

Will Rand be resurrected, pick twelve apostles, and go up in a pillar of the Light? Only if RJ is on crack.

 

Now 8) shoot your arrows at ME .... hehehe

[Luckers]

Hmmm... RJ on crack could make the end of this series very, very interesting.