Rand and Moridin - Saidin Sickness and the Body Swap

[Luckers]

As some of you may know im a fan of the Body Swap theory... i.e. that Rand and Moridin swap bodies through their psychic link. There is quite a bit of evidence for this, but nevertheless someone recently asked me why on earth Rand would want to do such a thing, and i replied that i thought it would happen by accident.

 

It was only with some consideration that i realised that i didn't know how on earth it might happen on accident... now i think i do.

 

I think the key is in the Saidin Sickness Rand gets everytime he grabs saidin. I think that when he does the link between him and Moridin becomes stronger, and that the neusia comes from problems with perception... seeing two images at once, even when Rand wasn't seeing moridin i think that was happening. This is different to the Ta'veren telepathy, i believe, in that with the Ta'veren incidents the image over rides what the person is seeing completely.

 

We have seen Rand grab saidin, and percieve Moridin as having a reaction. Yet we've never seen Rand have a reaction without drawing saidin. I believe this is because Moridin doesn't channel saidin, just the True Power. I believe that Rand is going to sever those black cords again, severing Moridin's connection to the True Power and forcing him to draw on Saidin, and i think with both of them holding saidin and being in close proximity, they will strengthen the connection to the stage that they jump bodies... then bam, Alivia kills Rand's body (after, naturally enough, her learning its no longer Rand inside)... and that is that.

[Ruffio]

Hmmm.. i like it. Could Rand learn to use the True Power? Since the Choedan Kal, maybe it's clean as well. To be honest his difficulty with saidin urks me and i hope there's a good reason for the Moridin images.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

It doesn't fit Min's viewing that two become one, and one dies. What you're saying is that two switch minds, and then one dies.

[Ruffio]

I thought Min was talking about Lews Therin though.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

I thought Min was talking about Lews Therin though.

 

Crap, probably, but possibly not.

[Zardi]

Could Rand learn to use the True Power? Since the Choedan Kal, maybe it's clean as well.

The problem with the TP isn't a "taint" or a necessity to learn to use it. The problem is that it comes directly from the Dark One, and you need his permission to use it.

 

It doesn't fit Min's viewing that two become one, and one dies. What you're saying is that two switch minds, and then one dies.

I've already bugged Luckers about this. :P Here's a thread to read through. It isn't very long.

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3271

[chuckievi]

I think there may be a facet to this that people are overlooking. My understanding is that when the DO puts a forsaken into a new body it kills the other person's "soul" if you will, at the time of the transfer. Kinda like hooking up a new processor into a motherboard as an example. If that happened in the case of Rand and Moridin with Rand going into Moridin's body it would fufil all the prophecy requirements that I can remember off the top of my head. Ran's body would die, Rand would in essence "kill" Moridin, and Alivia could play her part in this whole scenario by linking with Rand to provide him with enough of a power advantage to kill Moridin if they fought over ownership of the body.

 

This of course is dependent on a few assumptions, but the beauty of theories is they all are until RJ writes it.

[chuckievi]

Adding a thought that I omitted earlier, we have seen that when the DO puts someone into a new body their previous skills and knowledge come with them (the exception seems to be Lanfear/Cyndane, which confuses things a little), but we have seen with Halima that the previous abilities of ther person come with them. i.e. a female able to channel the male half of the power. What we haven't seen/don't know is whehter they gain any of the skills/abilities of the previous owner of the body.

 

SO, what WOULD happen if Rand was transferred into Moridin's body knocking him loose the mortal coil so to speak (I am more a fan of Rand taking his body thus killing him than a straight swap). Would some part of the link to the DO remain? If so would the BODY retain the ability to channel the TP? Rather far fetched, but that could be a useful weapon and something that could help reseal the bore in a more permanent fashion... seal the DO in with his own power, which could make it so someone external, i.e. Lanfear would have to bore a hole in order to release his influence. Just some food for thought

[TheDiceAgain...]

You're forgetting that channeling the True Power is a two factor proposition. It's a matter of desire and permission, i.e.; you desire to channel the True Power and the Dark One lets you. Once Moridin/Ishy's soul is no longer in control of the body (if that is truly what is going to happen), the DO will know and immediately withdraw his permission to use the True Power. Therefore the new "Rand in Moridin's body" incarnation will not be able to use it.

[chuckievi]

Yeah I thought of that, which is why its extremely unlikely it will happen. My only thought was pertaining to the multiple references that the DO isn't all knowing and thus thought it was ishy/moridin. Again, really far fetched but an interesting possibility none the less.

[Luckers]

It doesn't fit Min's viewing that two become one, and one dies. What you're saying is that two switch minds, and then one dies.

 

Unless the two becoming one is Moridin and LTT?

 

No, i dont really think that. Thats a good question. *puts on his thinking face and wanders away mumbling to himself*

 

I've already bugged Luckers about this. Here's a thread to read through. It isn't very long.

 

Lol... yeah, you were the one i mentioned in the first post.

[Ruffio]

Yeah, Luckers! What would happen if Therin seizes Saidin initially. (vs wrestling it from Rand's control) Would Lews Therin and Moridin connect then? Would that even have an effect? Great, everytime I get back on these boards have to go and read the entire series again. oh well.

[algspkr]

As some of you may know im a fan of the Body Swap theory... i.e. that Rand and Moridin swap bodies through their psychic link. There is quite a bit of evidence for this, but nevertheless someone recently asked me why on earth Rand would want to do such a thing, and i replied that i thought it would happen by accident.

 

It was only with some consideration that i realised that i didn't know how on earth it might happen on accident... now i think i do.

 

I think the key is in the Saidin Sickness Rand gets everytime he grabs saidin. I think that when he does the link between him and Moridin becomes stronger, and that the neusia comes from problems with perception... seeing two images at once, even when Rand wasn't seeing moridin i think that was happening. This is different to the Ta'veren telepathy, i believe, in that with the Ta'veren incidents the image over rides what the person is seeing completely.

 

We have seen Rand grab saidin, and percieve Moridin as having a reaction. Yet we've never seen Rand have a reaction without drawing saidin. I believe this is because Moridin doesn't channel saidin, just the True Power. I believe that Rand is going to sever those black cords again, severing Moridin's connection to the True Power and forcing him to draw on Saidin, and i think with both of them holding saidin and being in close proximity, they will strengthen the connection to the stage that they jump bodies... then bam, Alivia kills Rand's body (after, naturally enough, her learning its no longer Rand inside)... and that is that.

Thats not true. In Winters Heart or Crossroads of Twilight the sickness strikes and Rand thinks that it is the first time it has happened without him embracing sadin. I would guess that they just need to come in close proximity for the swap if that is what is going to happen.

[Luckers]

Which may be the fact that Moridin embraced saidin... still, can you supply a reference, because i dont remember it.

[Kaznen]

I'd be disappointed if they did swap bodies. Rand's physical appearence is a big part of what makes him Rand.

[Luckers]

I think that the body swap is the only way RJ will be able to keep Rand alive without disapointing me... not because its not tacky, coz ya, it is, but given the various foretelling, dreams and prophecies the only way ill be satisfied is if either Rand dies, or Rand body swaps...

[shad]

Luckers..see maybe i wasnt imagining things, it seems someone else remembers Rand getting sick without grabbing saidin. Well I'm going to go read Rands massivly long 1 chapter from CoT to see if it's in there.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Rand can tell that when he sees Moridins face somethings wrong. He thinks to himself "if either one of them oves a hairswidth they would touch." I think that if they do "touch" then they will end up switching bodies. Or maybe Rand will be able to reach through Mordins link to the Dark One and draw the True Power or strike at the Dark One? ? ? Things are getting interesting again I think. Book 12 has a lot to live up to though in my oppinion

[RJJT86]

Wait, on the use of the True Power. Didn't Rand wrest the connection to the True Power away from Ishy in the EotW? Isn't that how he fought the Darklord the first time. What keeps him from say switching bodies with Moridin, killing his own body which now hold Moridin, and then turning to the Darklord, and using his own source against him seal it back up? I don't know just a thought.

 

My personal idea is that between LTT and Rand one of them will die. But I'm beginning to believe the theory that LTT and Rand are both the same person thus if one died the other would, in other words LTT is just reincarnated as "Rand" who has memories of his own, but the soul is shared.

 

So now I'm looking at Luckers theory here and I'm thinking its a darn good theory, but not one that I want to happen. I agree with Kaznen, his physical description is a very big part of him, and I wouldn't want to see that go.

 

What I would like to see, is maybe him kill Moridin in his own body and then recieve his soul/person back into it once he seals of the DO. Just a wish I suppose.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wait, on the use of the True Power. Didn't Rand wrest the connection to the True Power away from Ishy in the EotW? Isn't that how he fought the Darklord the first time. What keeps him from say switching bodies with Moridin, killing his own body which now hold Moridin, and then turning to the Darklord, and using his own source against him seal it back up? I don't know just a thought.

 

The "black wires" that Rand cut in multiple battles with Ishamael were not his connection to the True Power. And the True Power cannot be used against the Dark One in any body, because it is drawn directly from him, and can only be used with his express approval each time.

 

I don't really like the body swap thing, but that because I think its cheesy, not because I don't think it could happen. What I'd prefer to see happen is the whole "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" thing be the key. Rand strikes, Rand dies, time rewinds, Rand is alive in his own body with the prison remade. The only thing that gets healed is the never-healing wound. Thats what I would LIKE, and I think it would fit the prophecies, but .... meh.

[Luckers]

I agree that it would be cheesy, though to be fair RJ has been building it since book 1 so i think that gives him the backing to pull it off. Nevertheless i think this is whats is going to happen.

[murali284]

This is in reference to sealing the darkone with TP. In the first few books it was stated that it is not the first time that the dark one has turned the light's champuion to his cause. What if LTT goes insane and swears to DO. Then because the DO will make Rand the chief baddie, he will give him unconditional power over the TP Rand then used this to attack DO and seals him in. When the DO retaliates like he did in the age of legends he will be retaliating on the TP which will rebound on him and hence weaken until the wheel turns bacvk to the age of legends.

[RobertAlexWillis]

This is in reference to sealing the darkone with TP. In the first few books it was stated that it is not the first time that the dark one has turned the light's champuion to his cause. What if LTT goes insane and swears to DO. Then because the DO will make Rand the chief baddie, he will give him unconditional power over the TP Rand then used this to attack DO and seals him in. When the DO retaliates like he did in the age of legends he will be retaliating on the TP which will rebound on him and hence weaken until the wheel turns bacvk to the age of legends.

 

Number one, the True Power can't be used against the Dark One, because it is drawn from him, and only with his permission for each specific use. Number two, Ishamael was lying when he told Rand that the Dragon had served the Dark before.

[KaptainKaos]

I have asked these questions before in another post but there wasn't any answer so I thought I would bring them up in the proper topic.

 

I do have several questions for those who believe the Moridin/Rand switching bodies thing. Where does it say or even imply anywhere in the books that anyone but possibly the Creator or the Dark One can switch the actual souls of two individuals simultaneously (because if it wasn't at the same time one of the souls would be destroyed)? Robert Jordan has said there are many rules and constraints some that haven't even came up in the books yet even when the Dark One himself is putting the soul of one of his followers who has died into another living body which is the main example so far we have of souls being able to go from one body to another. Also if it was known that Moridin was in Rand's body which it would be by the gals bonded to Rand why would Elayne, Min, and Avienda be on a boat with Rand's body on a funeral bed?(Nicola's fortelling) Or if the bond is to Rand's soul then they would know he moved to Moridin's body and was alive for that matter and wasn't in his own body why would they be on a boat with Rand's body, Moridin's soul seemingly dead.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I do have several questions for those who believe the Moridin/Rand switching bodies thing. Where does it say or even imply anywhere in the books that anyone but possibly the Creator or the Dark One can switch the actual souls of two individuals simultaneously (because if it wasn't at the same time one of the souls would be destroyed)?

 

We have no actual examples of it. However, we have no examples of True Power balefire crossing with One Power balefire either. So we are dealing with a unique situation. That said .... I don't personally see it as evidence of an upcoming body swap. It is obviously a connection between Rand and Moridin, but I'm not sure we can go beyond that. The One Power CAN affect people's soul-body connection however (like the spirit trap Perrin freed Faile from in TDR), so such a thing could be possible. I don't take dreamwalking as evidence, since dreamwalking is not related to the Power (non-channelers can do it too).

 

Incidentally, that leaves the door open for other, non-Power related body swap methods ....

 

Robert Jordan has said there are many rules and constraints some that haven't even came up in the books yet even when the Dark One himself is putting the soul of one of his followers who has died into another living body which is the main example so far we have of souls being able to go from one body to another.

 

Those are essentially time sensitive restraints. Although there is some mention of "preparing" the new host body, which might interfere with an instant swap. Although it could be argued that the now-lengthy connection between Rand and Moridin is sufficient preparation.

 

Also if it was known that Moridin was in Rand's body which it would be by the gals bonded to Rand why would Elayne, Min, and Avienda be on a boat with Rand's body on a funeral bed?(Nicola's fortelling) Or if the bond is to Rand's soul then they would know he moved to Moridin's body and was alive for that matter and wasn't in his own body why would they be on a boat with Rand's body, Moridin's soul seemingly dead.

 

In a post-Tarmon Gai'don world, Rand's three girls standing around "Rand's" body (ie the blind one-handed body Moridin was in after the alleged swap) could be a part of a political message like "The Dragon is dead. Now we have to solve our own problems." I admit that is a little weak ... I'm kind of thinking of the way Josua Lackhand chose to disappear at the end Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.

 

Its odd that I'm defending this, since I don't buy it, and I don't want it to happen ... I guess I'm just saying it isn't something that can be entirely ruled out.