Tarmon Gai'don. When Will It Begin? How Will It Be Launched? (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

So how much time do you reckon is left? Do you think it will be one big invasion, or a multi-pronged attack? And where do you think the attacks will come from? Tarwin's Gap only? Through the Shadow's Lance? If so will Inturalde still be around to meet it in Saldaea? How will the Ways be involved? Is it possible the Light might launch the first blows?

[Muad Cheade]

I believe it will happen in about two months or so. Tarmon Gai'don will essentially be another Trolloc Wars yet that is not as important as what Rand must do. I think it will basically be like the "Strike at Shayol Ghul." However Rand does not know how to seal the prison and his dream of "slaying the Dark One" is impossible to be achieved as Moridin implied.

 

As for the Shadowspawn hordes, I believe Tarwin's Gap, the Shadow Lance and the various Waygates will be launching points. I think in the first two locations, both Lan and Ituralde's forces will blunt the first prongs of the Shadows' opening moves, but the forces the have at their disposal are not enough.

 

One thing I recall is that the Waygates were not destroyed. The Ogier only said they would watch it, which still wouldn't prevent thousands of Trollocs from invading as Mashadar has been acting strangely.

[Chance]

The great battle done, but world not done with battle.  I believe it was one of Min's visions, or maybe Eggy's dreams that shows Rand entering a cave of red, like fire, at a black mountain. Noone else but Rand, so going after shai'tan seems to be a solo affair. The rest of the battle, is likely battle. The fight springing another trolloc war, with the dreadlords and such. I doubt it would be one large invasion force. There's got to be enough time for other viewings and dreams to happen though. It might be that Shaidar Haran actually starts the last battle by trying to harm Rand's women, or kids, which leads to him shedding tears, and then heads to the pit of doom. Going back through the prophecies, dreams and visions it still seems to be some time before the last battle. Althought its obviously close, as the wolf is carrying the axe. 

[sdelu]

The great battle done, but world not done with battle.  I believe it was one of Min's visions, or maybe Eggy's dreams that shows Rand entering a cave of red, like fire, at a black mountain. Noone else but Rand, so going after shai'tan seems to be a solo affair. The rest of the battle, is likely battle.

 

This is something I have dreaded since the first hint of it from the dreams/visions (was it a dream or a vision? i hope a dream, so it doesn't have to come true). As much as RJ deviated from LOTR, I can't help but feel that this will end up being much the same: rand in SG alone, and Fain popping in to try and kill him but somehow helping him.

 

I will be very disappointed in general if Rand goes to SG himself to take on the DO, at least if that means abandoning the rest of his friends without so much as a farewell. Most likely he will not even show up to help his companions or something, abandoning his glory and leaving it to the likes of Logain, and will do it alone.

 

This will suck. I always hate when that happens. He'll have struggled through thirteen damn books by that point, and if he doesn't get some respect and some glory I will be annoyed for him.

 

Of course, perhaps he won't be traveling to SG to face the DO in combat. He could always just show up to chat, or something ;p

 

The fight springing another trolloc war, with the dreadlords and such. I doubt it would be one large invasion force. There's got to be enough time for other viewings and dreams to happen though. It might be that Shaidar Haran actually starts the last battle by trying to harm Rand's women, or kids, which leads to him shedding tears, and then heads to the pit of doom. Going back through the prophecies, dreams and visions it still seems to be some time before the last battle. Althought its obviously close, as the wolf is carrying the axe. 

 

I don't doubt that something like this will officially "announce" TG, but I think it will be more along the lines of Demandred finally doing something, and doing something nasty. I don't think that Rand and Co. will be as prepared for the attack as they believe they are. Also, if one of the four women bonded to Rand doesn't die, turning him crazy-pants again, I'll be surprised.

 

As for the Ways, I believe only those in land controlled by the Seanchan are still open, so I'm not sure how that would change things, except that it will effectively sandwich the light's forces between the blight and the forces through the Ways to the south. Unless, of course, the Seanchan decide to help...

 

 

I doubt the Light will launch the first blow. I think they will think they are striking the first blow, but the Shadow seems more prepared than Rand and Lan, who have been running around gathering their forces. Presumably, the Shadow has had its forces for quite some time, and will have plots upon plots upon plans to finally bring to fruition.

 

Ah, I can't wait for the delicious evilness that I hope will be revealed.

[mike-cook]

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

from Nicola in book 6

[NegaWalker]

A good question.

 

Me, I suspect it will begin when Rand breaks the three Seals.

 

Then, I hope, the DO will speak to Rand, and perhaps the world, directly. The Bore has been growing all this time. He can't escape, but he might be able to project himself elsewhere.

[Sharaman]

Lan will take another 2-3 months to get to Tarwin's Gap. That's one trigger, maybe the major one for serious scrapping.

Perrin and Mat can access Travelling but Mat needs a while sussing bell foundries in Caemlyn (and going to the ToG) before his cannons are operational.

RaT's own forces (non-channeling) are pretty much ready.

But the WT and BT need to sort out

The Borderlanders need to learn what crap is going down and accept RaT's offer to Travel back home

The Seanchan - no treaty yet and bound to be major tensions between them, Aiel and Aes Sedai as well.

 

 

[JohannesNilsson]

I don't think there will be an exact point of when TG started, more like small fightning ends up in bigger fights.

And the Seanchen will help Rands forces in TG!

[imperium3]

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

from Nicola in book 6

 

Hmm, let's have a look at this...

 

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.

 

The Lion Sword refers to Andor, I'm guessing this is Elayne because of the other two, but it could also be Gawyn who is now First Prince of the Sword. "Dedicated spear" refers to one of the Aiel, I'd say either Aviendha because of the Rand connection, or if we want to be picky (technically as a Wise One she cannot use a spear any more), one of the warriors like Rhuarc or Sulin. "She who sees beyond" must surely be Min. He who is dead yet lives... I reckon that might be Rand, which is interesting. Though the whole three women on the boat with a dying man thing sounds very Arthurian.

 

The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

Tarmon Gai'don over, but presumably the fight against the DO would not yet be over (or perhaps a Breaking-like civil war). "The return" I suspect refers to the Seanchan. As for the guardians balancing the servants, this clearly means the Asha'man (old tongue: Guardians) and Aes Sedai (Old tongue: Servants of All).

 

I'm not sure what to make of this prophecy overall. It seems to be some kind of prediction of the aftermath of Tarmon Gai'don, in which Rand dies but at the same time lives on. Can't really make out much more though.

[Majsju]

I stick to what I have been saying for years.

 

I think what happened at Falme shows in a way what will happen during TG. Ie, Rand fight against the DO, and the battles going on in the world will influence eachother. Mat slaughters an army of trollocs, and Rand gets a major boost. The DO launches out at Rand, and Perrin must retreat, etc.

 

Rand and the armies fighting for the Light are representing Order, the DO, and his minions represent Chaos, and the TG is ultimately a battle between Order and Chaos.

 

That said, I do not think Rand will go alone to fight the DO. Rather, he will bring a small force with him.

[Aleron688]

That said, I do not think Rand will go alone to fight the DO. Rather, he will bring a small force with him.

 

Agreed.  he will likely bring callandor and some of his lady friends too.  But i'm hoping that him defeating the DO and all that doesnt just mean that he has to provide some strength for the women as they direct the weaves.... that would probably be the most anti-climatic ending to a 14 book series i have ever read (not that i can remember reading many series over 11 books)

[Sentinel78]

Moridin is content to let the world go to hell and win a slow war of attrition because I think he knows Rand has no idea how to actually re-seal the DO.  Rand's uniting of the world is all well and good for surviving a Trolloc invasion, but it won't help to stop the DO breaking free.  Whenever Moridin determines Rand has a plan that might actually work, he'll unleash the hordes.  I'm guessing this will be when Rand breaks the seals.

 

As far as how it will be launched... Trollocs coming down from Tarwin's Gap seems obvious, but might happen.  Maybe through the Ways too.  Darkfriend armies moving by gateway are also a distinct possibility, as well as attempted assassinations of the Light's leaders.

[jemron]

A good question.

 

Me, I suspect it will begin when Rand breaks the three Seals.

 

Then, I hope, the DO will speak to Rand, and perhaps the world, directly. The Bore has been growing all this time. He can't escape, but he might be able to project himself elsewhere.

 

The Bore has been growing this whole time?  Is that backed up by the series or quotes from RJ/BS, or did you just state your opinion like fact?  The DO's influence is growing as the Seals weaken, but I don't remember reading anywhere that the Bore is actually growing and that the DO will somehow be closer to breaking free than he was right before the Bore was sealed.  I assume that he will be "just as free" as he was before the sealing happened.

[Veronica MiHael]

Tarmon Gai'don = Battle Royale between Good and Evil.

 

Evil players:  Black Tower Ashaman, Black Ajah, Darkfriends, Darkhounds, Dragkhar, Trollocs, and Fades.  Hopefully a full grown Worm will make an appearance as well as other denizens of the Blight.

( I do not believe the darkfriend channelers will all be taken care of before the last battle, SOME bad channelers will be at the last battle as opposition to the good channelers)

I think all of those guys will be at the last battle trying to take out the various armies that show up along the blight border.

I think Rand will definitely have his army there, but so will the White Tower, Whitecloaks, Mat's Band of the Red Hand will merge with the Seanchan army since Mat is Prince of Ravens and all. He will take command and lead them and he will call the Heros of the Horn back. Perrin's Army will be there also but Perrin will also lead a huge Wolf pack...ALL of the Wolves.

 

I know Mat will participate in the Last battle because he has to be there because of the horn but I think he will be late.  He has to outfit his army with all those Cannons first and he will not have the time. Then I think Tuon will realize she needs Mat to lead her army once the Trollocs start spilling out through all the waygates in her lands.  Mat will have to merge the Band with the Seanchan and that's how the Seanchan will fight in the last battle because Mat will make them.  He will arrive just in the nick of time with an Army that will rival Lan's and blow the horn of valere and BOOOM!!  kick it all off with BLAZIN CANNON FIRE!!  I can only hope.  ;)

 

I think Ituralde will be at the last battle since the problems in Arad Domon will get cleared up enough in TOM.  I also think something will be the catalyst.  Something will happen to let Rand and everyone else know that ITS TIME!  And rand will go to the blight, break the seal and take his entourage with him to Shayol Ghoul.  Lan will be at Tarwins Gap and he will cut straight on through to Malkier and free it. 

Furthermore, I think the Ogier will have to fight but it will be the Trollocs pouring out of the waygates at their Stedding, then the Ogier will go North.

The will be fights and battles breaking out all over the blight border not just one area.  The borderlander armies will come back home just in time to participate and the Tinkers will help out by seeing to the wounded.  I hope I am not forgetting anyone.  But if I did, they will be there too.

 

Rand will die there and live on in TAR and everyone else will have to pick up the pieces and try to move on.  The remnants of the Aiel will go back to the Waste not to return to the way of the leaf.

             

[Sentinel78]

The Bore has been growing this whole time?  Is that backed up by the series or quotes from RJ/BS, or did you just state your opinion like fact?  The DO's influence is growing as the Seals weaken, but I don't remember reading anywhere that the Bore is actually growing and that the DO will somehow be closer to breaking free than he was right before the Bore was sealed.  I assume that he will be "just as free" as he was before the sealing happened.

 

Jemron, from the Strike at Shayol Ghul:

 

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

 

This statement seems to indicate that the DO is capable of enlarging the Bore further on his own once the Seals are gone.  Whether he's been enlarging the Bore while the Seals are still in place is an open question that I do not believe we can answer yet.

 

[maradon]

We know where a few of the battles will occur at least:

Tarwins Gap; this is very, very similar to the battle of Thermopalae(sp?) between a small greek force and a persian horde. Lan is of course King Leonidas so will perhaps have to die (I'm sure that there is a viewing of Nynaeve grieving over a man somewhere).

Maradon; the name indicates the Battle at Marathon between greece and persia where after a short stalemate greece pulled off a suprise attack against a much larger force and won (could this be Ituraldes force?).

Caemlyn; In Arthurian legend Arthurs last battle against Mordred happened at Camlaan (sp?) both were died.

I can't remember any other similarities, however I am pretty sure that these things have a very realistic possability of coming true.

[jemron]

The Bore has been growing this whole time?  Is that backed up by the series or quotes from RJ/BS, or did you just state your opinion like fact?  The DO's influence is growing as the Seals weaken, but I don't remember reading anywhere that the Bore is actually growing and that the DO will somehow be closer to breaking free than he was right before the Bore was sealed.  I assume that he will be "just as free" as he was before the sealing happened.

 

Jemron, from the Strike at Shayol Ghul:

 

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

 

This statement seems to indicate that the DO is capable of enlarging the Bore further on his own once the Seals are gone.  Whether he's been enlarging the Bore while the Seals are still in place is an open question that I do not believe we can answer yet.

 

 

I understand that the bore was growing larger and that the DO would have eventually escaped before the seals were placed on the prison, but I was under the impression that after the seals were placed, the bore was "sealed" and did not continue to grow.  I think the seals have been weakening for 3000 years, but the bore hasn't changed from the moment the seals were placed.

 

With that said, I agree with you that once the seals are broken, the DO will again have the ability to continue to widen/expand the opening in his prison (ie. the bore) until he either (a) escapes and wins or (b) escapes enough for Rand to fight him/beat him at the last battle or © is somehow resealed into the current prison or (d) has the prison completely broken and Rand et al have to create a brand spankin' new prison.

[Sentinel78]

The only thing that makes me think that the DO might be enlarging the Bore is the DO's effect on the world... The weather, food spoilage, random deaths, bubbles of evil, plants failing to sprout, dead walking the Earth...  If the Bore is slightly less exposed then when the DO was sealed by LTT, then wouldn't all those effects have been present to a greater degree before LTT's raid on Shayol Ghul?  I would have expected some mention of that somewhere, whether in the Rhuidean column memories or the Strike at Shayol Ghul supplement.  Maybe that's what the Collapse was referring to, I dunno, but I thought of that as more of a subtle exaggeration of the baser human emotions, not so much of a physical-world effect.

[Lord_Mat]

What i wanna know is if the way's will return to it's former state since rand cleanse the taint.

[Ged]

We also have a comment from Demandred about how the bore has been growing larger since he got back out, although that may just be due to some of the seals that have been broken.

 

The bore might generally be growing with the fewer seals and I'd rather suspect it is, but the last time... it was a good eighty years or so from the creation of the bore to the point where the War of Shadow started. Even if the DO can expand the bore, he might not be able to do it very fast.

[albright]

I believe Rand's knowledge of how to cleanse Saidin will have a lot to do with his plan to fight the Dark one. He got the idea of how to cleanse Saidin from the dark "tubes" which protected the male forsaken from the taint on Saidin. I believe the Forsaken's original tubes/filters were made from the True Power, but Rand will use Saidar while linked with 2 females (Aviendha and Elayne?) and using Callandor in his actual battle with the DO.

 

He has already come to understand that Shadar Logoth/Mordeth's evil balances out the Dark One's power.

 

Now that Rand has the final piece of the puzzle (he has now learned of the existence and nature of the True Power). He will use this knowledge in a similar way to battle the DO. Who knows how it will be done exactly, but it will be some combination of the True Power, Saidin, Saidar, and Shadar Logoth's evil.  I also believe Rand has temperamental access to the True Power via Moridin and this will play a key role.

 

Finally, Shadar Logoth/Moridin's presence in this specific turn of the wheel will be the key to Rand changing the Age Lace cycle and actually killing or in some other way stopping the Dark One permanently, rather than just resetting the ages cycle.

 

Perhaps Rand will taint the DO's evil with Mordeth's evil somehow, etc. He absolutely will not be able to make any progress without using some form of "evil" power in some way. Either Moridin or Fain/Mordeth, or both will be the key at TG

[Al Jenn Mael]

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

from Nicola in book 6

 

I always took this that Rand needs to die in order to banish or reseal the DO. After TG is done and over with the world would still be at war Seanchan vs Black Tower and White Tower. I think that Elaida's Amyrlins Black Tower right next to the White Tower lead by Logain and Egwene.

 

 

The final battle will be fought in two books which is about two months ;p. I honestly believe Demandred has been responsible for a lot of the chaos in the land and that he will lead Trollocs and Murandy and some Ogier through the Waygates to strike all across the world. It will take Bashere, Agelmar Jagad, Gareth Bryne, and Rodel Ituralde to hold him off. Galad will replace Niall as a mastermind tactician though we haven't seen evidence of such. Lan will lead the forces at the Blight with the all those Nynaeve raised. Perrin and Mat will be with Rand at Shayol Gul. I don't think Rand will be fighting alone nor will it be something like Falme. It will be a titanic struggle until they figure it out at the last moment and Rand uses the Moridin and DO bond (and most likely Fain) that he has had with them and either reseals the DO or removes him from the pattern so he is a force like the creator. I don't think the DO can be killed or if he is he would just be rewoven into the pattern. If he is utterly destroyed I think the pattern would fail and the world with it. The battle will continue for a time but the forces of Light will win and be in tatters.

 

With humanity broken and battered from the war, new alliances will be forged and new battles will be fought.

[The Wolf]

Perrin's Army will be there also but Perrin will also lead a huge Wolf pack...ALL of the Wolves.                

 

I've always thought that Perrin was going to do something with the Darkhounds at the last battle.  They are the only shadowspawn that I can think of that were taken and twisted as opposed to just being a new species.  The wolves think of them as being related.  Has Perrin every tried to talk to one of them?  It's been a while since I read the earlier books. 

[Aleron688]

 

I've always thought that Perrin was going to do something with the Darkhounds at the last battle.  They are the only shadowspawn that I can think of that were taken and twisted as opposed to just being a new species.  The wolves think of them as being related.  Has Perrin every tried to talk to one of them?  It's been a while since I read the earlier books. 

 

are you on crack? lol, i CAN'T think of any shadowspawn that WEREN'T just twisted into what they are now.

 

lets go through the list:

 

Trollocs (created from mix-n-match)

Myrddraal (offspring of trollocs)

Darkhounds (twisted wolves)

Draghkar (corrupted humans)

Gray Men (rather obvious)

Cafar -- no idea what these are

Forgers -- no idea

Worms -- aginor creation (likely genetically altered something or other)

Gholam -- no idea

Zomara (seem to be effed up humans)

[The Wolf]

To me there is a big difference between the darkhounds and the trollocs.  The trollocs were bred using animals and humans if I remember right.  Darkhounds are not crossed with anything, just tainted.  Grey Men chose to give their souls over.  Draghkar, I don't remember if they ever went into detail.

 

I think the wolf to darkhound relationship is much different then the human to trolloc one.  That being said, most likely nothing will happen.