Question on angreal and sa'angreal use.

[Gaidzag]

Is the amount of power that may be used when using a specific angreal or sa'angreal the same no matter who is using it, or does it depend on the intrinsic strength of the channeler? 

 

More specifically, imagine if you will two channelers, one stronger than the other.  The strength of the first would rate 11 and the second would rate a 7.  The first one gets an angreal and, while using it, rates a 30.  Would the second also rate a 30 or just a 26 because he/she is 4 points weaker to begin with?

 

I would think it does matter on the strength of the channeler, but then how can we explain Rand and Asmodean's struggle with the super sa'angreal--they were dead even until Rand drew on the fat man angreal to get an edge, even though Rand was clearly stronger in the power to begin with than Asmo.

[The Fisher King]

Gaidzag...This is a Great Thread!!! ... Mainly because I was just talking about in another Thread that I get mixed-up with San'greal, An'greal and Ter'angreal myself...Ill be really interested to read what everyone contributes!

 

 

 

 

Fish

[Weiramon Award]

I've always figured it worked as a multiplier - if you could draw X, then an angreal may allow you to draw 1.5X or whatever.  I don't think the books specified.  Your first example ( both at 30 ) never even occurred to me.

[Agitel]

I've always figured it worked as a multiplier - if you could draw X, then an angreal may allow you to draw 1.5X or whatever.  I don't think the books specified.  Your first example ( both at 30 ) never even occurred to me.

 

I agree somewhat with this. I don't think it's like the first post. It doesn't make it the same. The question for me is whether it's a multiplier or of it's additive. Does it increase the channeler's power two times? Or does it add x amount of power to what they can draw?

 

Elaynes comments about the angreal she and Nynaeve use with the Bowl of Winds in A Crown of Swords makes me think it's a multiplier.

[Dmitri]

I agree somewhat with this. I don't think it's like the first post. It doesn't make it the same. The question for me is whether it's a multiplier or of it's additive. Does it increase the channeler's power two times? Or does it add x amount of power to what they can draw?

 

Elaynes comments about the angreal she and Nynaeve use with the Bowl of Winds in A Crown of Swords makes me think it's a multiplier.

 

That's what Brandon Sanderson said on this topic:

Matt – Question: The Choedan Kal, does it amplify your power? Is it a limited, for example, if I have a certain amount of power does it give me 10x what I have, or is it a certain amount of power I can access?

 

Brandon: One of the things I’ve been doing when I answer questions is that I’ve been saying that this is my understanding and putting an asterisk at the bottom that is a – I am speaking from my understanding and not from specific knowledge from the notes, meaning yes I am probably right but these are the questions I could be wrong on…this one my understanding is that it is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case. If you send me an email, I can go back and look to make sure. But I’m reasonably sure on that one, the reasons being things that are talked about in the notes mixed with the way an’greal and sa’angreal worked previously in the books mixed with two specific things that he talked about in the notes when people using an’greal and sa’angreal after they become very weak or after they are weak.

 

 

[Jemlin]

Yeah, I think what BS says makes sense.

 

An Angreal and Sa'angreal operate as doing two things:

1. Giving XX amount of Saidar boost, on top of what can already be held

2. Buffering for that extra amount of Saidar

3. Buffering from over drawing

 

So, a Weaker Aes Sedai can use an Angreal and become as strong as a much stronger Aes SEdai...but if that much stronger Aes Sedai gets hold of the same Angreal, she holds a lot more because it adds to her already greater strength.

 

Like, Person A on power scale of 10 and Person B on power scale of 30.  Using Angreal with power boost of 20.

 

A + Angreal = 30

 

B + Angreal = 50

 

You can access all that the Angreal has to offer, or just some.

 

Those with out "Buffers" I think still have a limited amount they add....but you can then over-draw because they have no third buffer against such.

 

 

[Impressive Bosom]

Yeah, I think what BS says makes sense.

 

An Angreal and Sa'angreal operate as doing two things:

1. Giving XX amount of Saidar boost, on top of what can already be held

2. Buffering for that extra amount of Saidar

3. Buffering from over drawing

 

So, a Weaker Aes Sedai can use an Angreal and become as strong as a much stronger Aes SEdai...but if that much stronger Aes Sedai gets hold of the same Angreal, she holds a lot more because it adds to her already greater strength.

 

Like, Person A on power scale of 10 and Person B on power scale of 30.  Using Angreal with power boost of 20.

 

A + Angreal = 30

 

B + Angreal = 50

 

You can access all that the Angreal has to offer, or just some.

 

Those with out "Buffers" I think still have a limited amount they add....but you can then over-draw because they have no third buffer against such.

 

I think this is a good analysis of what I initially thought and may be dead on. I think that one other option should be considered though.

 

Lets assign the value of your ability with the One Power as 'a', and the benefit of the angreal/sa'angreal as 'b'... either it works like you said, essentially allowing you to use (a + b) One Power, OR it serves as a multiplier of sorts, allowing those stronger to make more use of what it offers. Basically your ability plus the amount your ability allows you to draw through the angreal/sa'angreal. Consider:

 

a [you] + (a times b) [your ability times that of the an'greal]

 

So, theoretically, if person 1 had a level 10 use of the power, person 2 had a level 30 use of the power and the angreal offered a level 20 benefit, the comparative One Power usage would be as follows:

 

Person 1: 10 + (10 x 20) = 210

Person 2: 30 + (30 x 20) = 630

 

I actually suspect that the answer is both. That angreal are additive while the sa'angreal are multiplicative... the reason I think that is that there seem to be a very deliberate seperation of the two without any other reason to explain it. There are some angreal that are stronger than other angreal - why have sa'angreal instead of just REALLY strong angreal? Likely because there is a different manner in which they operate. This might also explain why Rand needed/wanted someone as strong as Nynaeve to work with him using the Choden Kal... her great strength allowed her to use MORE of its ability, nearly matching his own and keeping balance to the circle he formed with her.

[Gaidzag]

I actually suspect that the answer is both. That angreal are additive while the sa'angreal are multiplicative... the reason I think that is that there seem to be a very deliberate seperation of the two without any other reason to explain it. There are some angreal that are stronger than other angreal - why have sa'angreal instead of just REALLY strong angreal? Likely because there is a different manner in which they operate. This might also explain why Rand needed/wanted someone as strong as Nynaeve to work with him using the Choden Kal... her great strength allowed her to use MORE of its ability, nearly matching his own and keeping balance to the circle he formed with her.

 

Top Notch answer Bosom.  The idea of angreals being additive and sa'angreals being multiplicative came to me when I was reading the earlier posts and I was glad to see you had thought of it first and worded it so well.

 

HOWEVER, nobody has yet even attempted to explain the counterexample of Asmodean being dead even with Rand when drawing on the access key in Rhuidean!  If strength when using sa'angreals is dependent on intrinsic strenght then he shouldn't have been equal to Rand. 

[Leatherleaf]

As far as my understanding goes, the "dead evenness" between Rand and Asmodean is probably due to several factors:

 

1. Several struggles going on at once:

Rand and Asmo are physically fighting as well as channel-fighting while trying to draw more saidar than the other all while trying to pull the ter-angreal away from the other.

 

2. Rand is already tired:

As it says, "All those nights without sleep were catching up to him, the running he had done on top of it...he was near exhaustion." (tSR, "The Traps of Rhuidean," 969-970) Yes Asmo was also tired, however, most of his days prior to this struggle were spent in relaxation, maybe performing a little bit to keep up his gleeman image. Asmo can keep the heat from touching him. Rand however, has spent days in the waste practicing the spear and sword for hours at a time, as well as the other stuff he does throughout the day. So Rand probably is spending more time in this struggle trying to keep a hold of the power than Asmo is.

 

3. Asmo has experience:

Asmo has all the tricks of the trade: he knows how to attack, defend, and a bunch of other things. This is the reason he later becomes Rand's teacher, right? Rand, therefore, in the struggle is like an apprentice fighting against a master, just trying to keep up.

 

4. They are channeling through a ter-angreal, not a sa'angreal:

This may not actually have an effect at all, but then again, it might. They are using the access key to tap into the sa'angreal. Also, the effects of two channelers using the same sa'angreal or ter'angreal are not well known. Possibly, the access key evens out how much each channeler can draw. We know that other ter'angreal are unstable when it comes to the power (such as the test for Accepted, where channeling can possibly kill you within the ter'angreal), so maybe the access key works differently with two channelers trying to use it. Or perhaps it is similar to the stone arches leading to the Finns, where having more than one person inside them causes Finnland to become unstable, in this case, the access key again might work differently with two channelers trying to use it.

 

One final thought is that they actually aren't "dead even" in the power; yes, Rand claims they each hold half (pg 969), but I think Rand probably holds a bit more, but his lack of experience and being tired disadvantage him greatly.

 

 

On another note, I really like the way Impressive Bosom distinguishes between angreal and sa'angreal. It seems that it could make sense. I always wondered at what point an angreal becomes a sa'angreal myself. Good work, Impressive!

[Majsju]

There are a few things to keep in mind when looking at Rand vs Asmo, other than the good ones Leatherleaf mentioned.

 

First of all, just because Asmo is seen as the lowest of the forsaken, he is not necessarily very weak in the OP. Forsaken ranks are not based on strength, so I think he was a bit stronger than most people tend to believe.

Second, it is quite possible, I would even say likely, that Rand has a bit strength left to gain, before he reaches his full potential.

 

So perhaps the gap between them was not as great as many people like to think.

[Agitel]

There are a few things to keep in mind when looking at Rand vs Asmo, other than the good ones Leatherleaf mentioned.

 

First of all, just because Asmo is seen as the lowest of the forsaken, he is not necessarily very weak in the OP. Forsaken ranks are not based on strength, so I think he was a bit stronger than most people tend to believe.

Second, it is quite possible, I would even say likely, that Rand has a bit strength left to gain, before he reaches his full potential.

 

So perhaps the gap between them was not as great as many people like to think.

 

I don't think Rand would typically reach his full potential until after 30. He's the Dragon and all, so he might get lucky. Unless men mature faster than women, though starting later. But in New Spring Moiraine talks about women not really reaching their potential until late twenties or even thirty.