Post tGS Predictions of the End (Full Spoilers)

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's funny paradox in the series. RJ said that it's indeed posible for DO to win. However wheel has no begining so it has already turned infinite number of rounds. If there is mathematically a chance for something happening, no matter how small chance, and it's tryed infinite number of times it WILL happen. So there is a chance for DO to win but he hasn't won after infinite number of ages. Sometimes I hate myself for thinking too scientificly :P

 

You're assuming that the game is honest, that the Creator doesn't cheat, and that he hasn't stacked the deck.

 

The Creator epitomizes Order.  Order does not require honesty.

 

The Creator made a universe comprised of an infinite number of potential realities, each having some probability of being true for any event.  Thus there is one potential reality where the DO always wins, and another where the Creator always wins.  The DO's problem is that it needs to win in all potential realities in order to break the Wheel and remake the universe.  As long as the Light wins in at least one potential reality the status quo is preserved, and the Creator gets to keep dealing.  

 

The Light will always win in at least one potential reality.

[yoniy0]

Oh, no no, Verin was quite adamant about that. The Creator and the DO are constants in all worlds. If the DO is free in one, he is free in all, and therefore if he is bound in one, he is bound in all.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oh, no no, Verin was quite adamant about that. The Creator and the DO are constants in all worlds. If the DO is free in one, he is free in all, and therefore if he is bound in one, he is bound in all.

 

When have we ever seen any Aes Sedai be right about anything important?  Verin did not define reality, she merely gave us her understanding of it.

 

The conflicting truths here are that nobody loses all of the time, and the DO has never been free.  Thus the Dark has to have won at least once, somewhere, but it did not result in the DO breaking free.  In fact, the World of If through which Rand et al tracked Fain to Falme was supposed to have been a world in which the Dark had triumphed.

 

Verin was wrong.

[Luckers]

When have we ever seen any Aes Sedai be right about anything important?

 

Verin about who was the 'man who could channel'. Verin about who were Black Ajah. Verin about Cadsuane. Verin about Alanna.

 

Besides her comment coincides with everything about the metaphysics of the Wheel.

 

The conflicting truths here are that nobody loses all of the time, and the DO has never been free.  Thus the Dark has to have won at least once, somewhere, but it did not result in the DO breaking free.

 

Apparently he has not. Unless, of course, you have some evidence to contradict everything stated in the books?

[yoniy0]

In fact, the World of If through which Rand et al tracked Fain to Falme was supposed to have been a world in which the Dark had triumphed.

Absolutely not, it was a world where the trollocs have won their war with Hawkwing. The DO was still trapped. You might argue that not much is keeping him trapped there right now, but then we come back to 'trapped in one; trapped in all'.

 

Edit: allow me to reiterate. An event which has a positive probability of occurring in infinitely (but, as mathematicians say, countably) many disjoint sets of circumstances could still fail to occur with positive probability.

[NetSlider]

Yes.

After hearing Moridin's fatalism about the endless turnings of the Wheel and the inevitability of the DO's eventual success I predict that Rand's goal to kill the Dark One will be fulfilled.

Otherwise the reader is left with the suspicion that it was all for nothing, in some age, some future turning of the Wheel the DO will win. And I think given the Wheel turns endlessly and everything has repeated many times that the period RJ wrote about is one which will finally change this and end the struggle with the DO.

 

I suspect that Fain will be absolutely instrumental in Shai'tan's death, as he's a wild card outside of the normal pattern, unique to this age - this turning, and harbors a huge grudge against the DO.

I do have to say that I kind of agree with this. Even RJ stated that in the "wheel" universe there is no chance for change and improvement and that the Greeks gave us "the gift" (his words) of linear time. But than it was stated that there is nothing special about this age, so go figure...

 

[Random Man]

 

Yes.

After hearing Moridin's fatalism about the endless turnings of the Wheel and the inevitability of the DO's eventual success I predict that Rand's goal to kill the Dark One will be fulfilled.

Otherwise the reader is left with the suspicion that it was all for nothing, in some age, some future turning of the Wheel the DO will win. And I think given the Wheel turns endlessly and everything has repeated many times that the period RJ wrote about is one which will finally change this and end the struggle with the DO.

 

 

It wouldn't be all for nothing for the wheel to repeat its turning. Rand kind of hit upon this in VoG, although he put it in terms of something of immediately recognizable value to humans (each time we live we get to love, yada yada) and not necessarily the fundamental natural purpose of the struggle.

 

Why do trees grow and produce seeds for more trees to grow? Why does bacteria aid in food digestion? Why do separate species engage in evolutionary arms races against each other over millions of years? What is the fundamental struggle of life in nature? It's a struggle for survival. Why do they survive? They survive in order to continue existing. What is the point of survival for the purpose of surviving? The point is self-evident. At some point it may all come to an end, but that's no reason to lay down and stop trying to survive as long as possible.

 

If the 3rd Agers seal the Dark One away again, the Wheel will continue to turn and the world will continue to exist until the next time it must put up a struggle to ensure the continuation of its own existence. This is a fight for survival in order to continue surviving. Ishy took a half-empty-glass approach to this, Rand ultimately took the half-full-glass one because he found a bright side in existence that satisfied him.

[FarShainMael]

You're assuming that the game is honest, that the Creator doesn't cheat, and that he hasn't stacked the deck.

 

The Creator epitomizes Order.  Order does not require honesty.

 

Surely dishonesty is opposed to order, in that it introduces a distortion of facts and their relationships with each other?

 

Take a trivial example. If I were to say to you: 'The Earth is flat', and you believed me, you would be most unwilling to travel anywhere beyond where you could see, for fear of dropping off the edge; you would not believe claims other people might make of having lived abroad; and various other ramifications. Your thinking, your image of the world and the relationships within it, have become seriously disordered, disconnected from reality.

 

But not to worry. I am lying to you.

 

(  ;)  )

 

[Lynander]

(Spoilers for Sword of Truth series)

 

Can't remember if it's book 1 or 2, but it was said that the person who used the Horn must use it for salvation rather than glory. Which is why Agelmar gives it away. It was also stated that the Horn can be used for the Shadow's purposes. So I think that through Mesaana, the Horn will be given to Demandred and he will use the Horn instead. However he will use it for his own glory -not salvation- and it will be similar to when the Sisters of the Dark open the Boxes of Orden (Sword of Truth) and it will lead to his end, directly or indirectly.

 

I also think that Demandred has been going to worlds like "the world of if" to gather part of his army through the traveling stones or whatever they are called. Perhaps through Cyndine or Moggy. Maybe that's where the 10k Trollocs came from that attacked Rand, Logaine, etc.

[Lironah]

(Spoilers for Sword of Truth series)

 

Can't remember if it's book 1 or 2, but it was said that the person who used the Horn must use it for salvation rather than glory. Which is why Agelmar gives it away. It was also stated that the Horn can be used for the Shadow's purposes. So I think that through Mesaana, the Horn will be given to Demandred and he will use the Horn instead. However he will use it for his own glory -not salvation- and it will be similar to when the Sisters of the Dark open the Boxes of Orden (Sword of Truth) and it will lead to his end, directly or indirectly.

 

I also think that Demandred has been going to worlds like "the world of if" to gather part of his army through the traveling stones or whatever they are called. Perhaps through Cyndine or Moggy. Maybe that's where the 10k Trollocs came from that attacked Rand, Logaine, etc.

 

But the Horn is bound to the first person who summoned it. It's just an ordinary horn to anyone else unless Mat dies first. So if you're going with this theory, you gotta figure out how Mat's gonna die before it happens.

[Byzantine279]

RJ misspoke when he said there was nothing unique about this age, Padan Fain is unique, as RJ confirmed. (which leaves us with incompatible answers)

 

and mathematically everyone is wrong:

 

If there is an infinite number of trials, but the possibility of victory is infinitely finite, then it becomes impossible to determine the outcome. (that is to say infinity divided by infinity, which cannot be mathematically rationalized).

 

In other words Eban needs to work on his calculus and everyone else should just keep doing what they are doing because it is impossible to determine the outcome with any degree of certainty.

[Lironah]

Can't find the old post...knew I should have saved it somewhere. Anyway, I forgot to post one of my predictions, so I figured I'd get it up here while I still can.

 

I predict that somewhere near the end of the book, Rand will break the last two Seals and declare "Let it begin!", referring to Tarmon Gai'don.

 

My other predictions included Verin's letter telling Mat there was a BA with him, but not which one, the Aelfinn and Eelfinn being the unseen watchers in T'A'R, and Demandred going after Perrin, and also him being Masema's shining Rand and pulling the strings behind Slayer (though I have some new doubts about that last). Dem is going to attack with his mysterious armies from the south, kind of flanking Rand's forces which are aimed at the Blight. I may have also mentioned a showdown between Aviendha and Cyndane, possibly occurring in Rhuidean but not a certainty.

 

Also, for the record, Graendal did it. Mesaana is posing as Danelle, and I know I've mentioned my gloves + mask of mirrors theory in a couple of places.

[graendalzooescapee]

Yes.

After hearing Moridin's fatalism about the endless turnings of the Wheel and the inevitability of the DO's eventual success I predict that Rand's goal to kill the Dark One will be fulfilled.

Otherwise the reader is left with the suspicion that it was all for nothing, in some age, some future turning of the Wheel the DO will win. And I think given the Wheel turns endlessly and everything has repeated many times that the period RJ wrote about is one which will finally change this and end the struggle with the DO.

 

I suspect that Fain will be absolutely instrumental in Shai'tan's death, as he's a wild card outside of the normal pattern, unique to this age - this turning, and harbors a huge grudge against the DO.

I do have to say that I kind of agree with this. Even RJ stated that in the "wheel" universe there is no chance for change and improvement and that the Greeks gave us "the gift" (his words) of linear time. But than it was stated that there is nothing special about this age, so go figure...

 

If you're referring to the interview at the end of the TEOTW audiobook, then I'm not sure that's what he said. He said that there was no opportunity for improvement under a real-world belief in circular time, and that the Greeks did civilization a favor by inventing linear time. Before I heard that, I thought that the Wheel of Time was deeply flawed because it grafted an apocalyptic (linear-time) story onto a world with circular time. Now I think that RJ actually had something sophisticated in mind for the end. I think, as long as the story as it was spelled out in the notes is what we get, that Rand's victory will result in the end of the Wheel and the introduction of linear time. My big worry is that BWS doesn't have the philosophical chops to pull this off. I love BWS on many levels, but the philosophy passages in his books are laughable--he always ends up arguing best for the side he doesn't want the reader to support (see all the theistic stuff in The Hero of Ages and The Way of Kings).

[MagnusDahlerNorling]

It wouldn't be all for nothing for the wheel to repeat its turning. Rand kind of hit upon this in VoG, although he put it in terms of something of immediately recognizable value to humans (each time we live we get to love, yada yada) and not necessarily the fundamental natural purpose of the struggle.

 

Why do trees grow and produce seeds for more trees to grow? Why does bacteria aid in food digestion? Why do separate species engage in evolutionary arms races against each other over millions of years? What is the fundamental struggle of life in nature? It's a struggle for survival. Why do they survive? They survive in order to continue existing. What is the point of survival for the purpose of surviving? The point is self-evident. At some point it may all come to an end, but that's no reason to lay down and stop trying to survive as long as possible.

 

If the 3rd Agers seal the Dark One away again, the Wheel will continue to turn and the world will continue to exist until the next time it must put up a struggle to ensure the continuation of its own existence. This is a fight for survival in order to continue surviving. Ishy took a half-empty-glass approach to this, Rand ultimately took the half-full-glass one because he found a bright side in existence that satisfied him.

 

That was the best post in this thread so far.

 

and mathematically everyone is wrong:

 

If there is an infinite number of trials, but the possibility of victory is infinitely finite, then it becomes impossible to determine the outcome. (that is to say infinity divided by infinity, which cannot be mathematically rationalized).

 

In other words Eban needs to work on his calculus and everyone else should just keep doing what they are doing because it is impossible to determine the outcome with any degree of certainty.

 

Your post doesn't make mathematical sense either. Infinite finality is not a properly defined term. However, there are several ways that may explain why using statistics will not prove that the DO has to win. As touched on previously, if the DO's chance of winning decays fast enough, he may have a less than 100% chance of winning. Say his chance of winning in a particular age is 1/(n^2), where n counts the ages from some given age, then his total chance of winning will be less than one.

 

Another thing to remark is that a 100% chance of success does not equate to certainty of success. Say you choose a number 'b' between 0 and 1, and then pick a random number 'x' in the same interval. The chance for b to equal x is 0, but it may still happen. If you toss a coin repeatedly, the chance for it to get tails up eventually goes to 100% as you progress, but it may still only give you heads. I guess this is what you meant by infinite finality, but don't lecture others on their math unless you know the proper language to do it in.

[graendalzooescapee]

Slightly unrelated observation about the end. We all know that there's no religion in Randland, because the existence of the Dark One (and by assumption the Creator) is so manifest that there is little need for ritual. But when you do a close reading of the fictive "Fourth Age" texts, they all swimming in religious (specifically Biblical) imagery. The second one at the beginning of TEOTW depicts people praying to the creator--not just a throwaway "Save us!" but a detailed prayer.

 

"O light of the heavens, light of the world, let the Promised One be born of the mountain. . ."

 

Based on this evidence, I suggest that, once the Dark One is sealed away again, there will be cultural room in Randland for the growth of a religion based around the Creator and, possibly, the Dragon, whether as a subsidiary god or a saint or what have you.

[Crael123]

I think that somebody will kill Shadar Haran, killing the DOs hand so he cannever touch the world again