Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[bushboy]

Hi all, first post.

 

Just re-read the whole series and finished today; enjoyed it a a hell of a lot again. Still wondering as to Mesaana's identity. Many people here seem totally convinced that she is disguised as a sister inside the tower. One thing which isn't clear to me is how she would manage to disguise her strength. Much ado is made of the natural strength in the power that the Forsaken possess, and we know that there is a weave to hide the ability to channel so that nearby channelers cannot sense them. However is there a mention anywhere in the entire series about partially hiding the ability to channel? It strikes me that any sister coming near her would sense her immense ability instantly and her cover would be blown. In order for her to hide as a regular Third Age AS she would need to outwardly project middling strength in the power. Is this possible?? If not then she must be hiding as someone who cannot channel at all by completely masking her ability. Thinking about it I cannot remember any previous examples where characters partially masked their abilities. Am I wrong? Cheers!

[morkhon]

Has there ever been something as straight forward before as "hey, one of the forsaken is AS let's find who she is?" besides the fact that it would be too simple and the fact there is no way to avoid oaths (even in the age of legends the same forsaken did not want to be "binded" because IT WORKS ON THEM TOO; and i know the whole discussion on "how to avoid the oaths"), why would she want to be AS? No benefit (it's not like an achievement for her) and yet all the risks (Seanchen, WC, BT, list goes on). Just think of motivations; there are none. She is inside WT but not as AS.

Sanderson said there is a way to beat the Oath Rod. He said we should be concentrating on that. She is undoubtedly, 100% posing as an AS. I'm very open minded, but some things just are facts.

[chuckievi]

It strikes me that any sister coming near her would sense her immense ability instantly and her cover would be blown. In order for her to hide as a regular Third Age AS she would need to outwardly project middling strength in the power. Is this possible?? If not then she must be hiding as someone who cannot channel at all by completely masking her ability. Thinking about it I cannot remember any previous examples where characters partially masked their abilities. Am I wrong? Cheers!

 

 

Well and that is where we can't really say for sure that she is an Aes Sedai in the Tower.  I personally think that she is for many if not all of the reasons that yoniy0 posted.  Mainly I think that she needs to be able to move around unimpeded, and as a servant she wouldn't be able to do that.  So we are left to conclude that either she is hiding as a servant in the Tower, which would be a less than ideal situation, plus the fact that there weren't enough servant specific clues in out time frame to infer her identity, OR she is an Aes Sedai and can partially mask her ability. 

[Sharaman]

Hi all, first post.

 

Just re-read the whole series and finished today; enjoyed it a a hell of a lot again. Still wondering as to Mesaana's identity. Many people here seem totally convinced that she is disguised as a sister inside the tower. One thing which isn't clear to me is how she would manage to disguise her strength. Much ado is made of the natural strength in the power that the Forsaken possess, and we know that there is a weave to hide the ability to channel so that nearby channelers cannot sense them. However is there a mention anywhere in the entire series about partially hiding the ability to channel? It strikes me that any sister coming near her would sense her immense ability instantly and her cover would be blown. In order for her to hide as a regular Third Age AS she would need to outwardly project middling strength in the power. Is this possible?? If not then she must be hiding as someone who cannot channel at all by completely masking her ability. Thinking about it I cannot remember any previous examples where characters partially masked their abilities. Am I wrong? Cheers!

 

Yes partial masking is possible and RJ confirmed that it is a method known to a few AoL channelers. The example of Lanfear posing as Else Grinwell in TDR has been cited. Another "possible" from the saidin side is Dashiva, who "gains strength rapidly". When Dashiva is cited however, various objections are usually raised that it is difficult to judge how much saidin a man can hold so it is easier for saidin channelers to conceal strength. I love throwing in the Dashiva example just to see sparks fly.

 

 

 

[chuckievi]

Sharaman do you happen to have a link to the RJ reference?  I have seen your knowledge before, so I don't doubt you.  I am just interested in reading its exact text.

[Sharaman]

Sharaman do you happen to have a link to the RJ reference?  I have seen your knowledge before, so I don't doubt you.  I am just interested in reading its exact text.

Whoops - it was on Wotmania for sure.

But that's now a dead site.

Somebody here - Luckers maybe (?) should be able to pull the entire RJ Q&A set out of archives.

It may be on 13thDepository  or Theoryland also but I've gotta got to work. Will look for it tonight.

 

Update: Here it is.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 20 November 1998, Washington DC - John Nowacki reporting

RJ said that a channeler can hide strength as well as ability to channel, but added that 1) few people know how to do it, and 2) the Aes Sedai don't even know these tricks are possible.  [This was asked because of Lanfear (and possibly also Mesaana) posing as Else Grinwell in the Tower. - Terez]

 

[StefanR]

Is the general consensus that Mesanna is hiding as Danelle?

[Sharaman]

No - Rahvin had her under compulsion and Lanfear wandered in, even as he dismissed her and they discussed the woman.

But we don't know who she was.

 

From the Prologue TFoH

"Lounging in a gilded chair in his shirtsleeves, one booted leg over the padded arm, Rahvin smiled as the

woman standing before the fireplace repeated what he had told her. There was a slight glaze in her large, brown

eyes. A young, pretty woman, even in the plain gray woolens she had adopted for disguise, but that was not

what interested him about her.

-----

Rahvin handled the flows of Spirit he had woven around the pair delicately. There was no need to

damage valuable servants.

He did not sweat, of course. He did not let the summer's lingering heat touch him. He was a tall man,

large, dark and handsome despite the white streaking his temples. Compulsion had presented no difficulties

with this woman.

A scowl twisted his face. It did with some. A few-a very few-had a strength of self so fIrm that their

minds searched, -even if unaware for crevices through which to slide away. It was his bad luck that he still had

some small need for one such. She could be handled, but she kept trying to find escape without knowing she

was trapped. Eventually that one would no longer be needed, of course; he would have to decide whether to

send her on her way or be 'rid of her more permanently. Dangers lay either way. Nothing that could threaten

him, of course, but he was a careful man, meticulous. Small dangers had a way of growing if ignored, and he

always chose his risks with a measure of prudence. To kill her, or keep her?

The cessation of the woman's speech pulled him from his reverie. "When you leave here," he told her,

"you will remember nothing of this visit. You will remember only taking your usual morning walk." She

nodded, eager to please him, and he tied off the strands of Spirit lightly, so they would evaporate from her mind

shortly after she reached the street. Repeated use of compulsion made obedience easier even when it was not in

use, but while it was, there was always a danger it might be detected."

 

[StefanR]

Gotcha, just read that part and saw that too

[chuckievi]

Sharaman do you happen to have a link to the RJ reference?  I have seen your knowledge before, so I don't doubt you.  I am just interested in reading its exact text.

Whoops - it was on Wotmania for sure.

But that's now a dead site.

Somebody here - Luckers maybe (?) should be able to pull the entire RJ Q&A set out of archives.

It may be on 13thDepository  or Theoryland also but I've gotta got to work. Will look for it tonight.

 

Update: Here it is.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 20 November 1998, Washington DC - John Nowacki reporting

RJ said that a channeler can hide strength as well as ability to channel, but added that 1) few people know how to do it, and 2) the Aes Sedai don't even know these tricks are possible.  [This was asked because of Lanfear (and possibly also Mesaana) posing as Else Grinwell in the Tower. - Terez]

 

 

Ah very good, that does seem to quash some of the objections to Messy being a sister.  Thank you Sharaman!

[yoniy0]

StefanR, Sharaman, could one of you guys please explain what exactly was the issue you discussed? I don't know if it's because you edited something out, or I'm just being particularly dense today, but I can't seem to get what the question and the answer were.

[Sharaman]

StefanR, Sharaman, could one of you guys please explain what exactly was the issue you discussed? I don't know if it's because you edited something out, or I'm just being particularly dense today, but I can't seem to get what the question and the answer were.

StefanR asked whether the young red sister who the Tower had sent to Caemlyn could be Mesaana.

My response is unedited.

[Paerish Swar]

OK.  Try to hear me out on this one.

 

The Gathering Storm: News in Tel'aran'rhiod- Egwene's POV

 

She longed to stay in the World of Dreams a little longer. . .She found herself stepping away from Tar Valon. . .She appeared in the rebel Aes Sedai camp.  A foolish place to visit, perhaps.  If there were Darkfriends or Forsaken in the World of Dreams, they could very well be studying this camp and looking for information, much as Egwene sometimes visited the Amyrlin's study in Tel'aran'rhiod to search for clues on Elaida's plans. . .Egwene walked the camp's main thoroughfare. . .There were no people, only the occasional fleeting glimpse of a sleeper who had stumbled into Tel'aran'rhiod.  Here, a brief flash of a woman in a fine green gown.  A dreaming Aes Sedai, perhaps, though it was just as likely to be a serving maid imagining herself to be a queen.

 

This particular little "insignificant" quote occurs on a single page, and is surrounding by all sorts of major revelations in preceding and succeeding chapters (Verin's Black Ajah admission and her statement that Mesaana is in the Tower happens in the very next chapter).  This is the kind of quote that can be easily overlooked, but is perhaps extremely important.

 

I think BS was dropping us a hint.

 

If my sense of the time line is correct, this visit to TAR occurs on the same night that Mesaana visits Sheriam in regards to stealing the dream ter'angreal.  Egwene says that she just glimpses this woman (and a second later sees another older looking blond woman) and that she vanishes.  Egwene brushes off the event as just a normal dreamer touching TAR in her sleep for a moment.

 

(*Note:  Of the two women that Egwene sees in this little scene, one gets a full description - dress color, hair color and type, and a general age range - while the other is described only by her dress.  I believe that every word a writer uses is intentional.  What is the intention behind using such disparate levels of description in the exact same paragraph?)

 

What if her assumption was incorrect?  What if that woman was Mesaana trying to evade notice?

 

In almost the same breath BS mentions the possibility of the Forsaken lurking around the camp, gives a description of a woman based solely on the color and quality of her clothing (where have we seen that before?), and all on the same night that Mesaana had cause to be lurking in TAR and around the rebel camp specifically.

 

But it's so easily glossed over the way it is written!

 

The more I think about this possibility, the more beautiful I think it is.  A random detail like that is just the sort of thing I look for in a good piece of detective fiction.

 

So, what's my point?  The above quote aside, we've seen Mesaana in various silk gowns of green, red and white, correct?  My "hunch" about the above quote adds one more "fine green gown."

 

I know the majority of us think that Danelle is the AS Mesaana is posing as, but I've never quite felt comfortable with this.  Danelle is the super-dreamy, super-friendless Brown Sister.  Browns are known to wear drab clothing, often wool (and linen?), and often a good century out of style. . .NOT fine silks with scrollwork or silks in a virulent shade of red.

 

If I'm right about the above quote being a hint, I think we should reassess the prime suspects of the Green Ajah (who certainly are self-indulgent enough to wear silks around the Tower).  Haven't there been two Green Sisters who have physical descriptions similar to that of Mesaana?  Wasn't one of them a part of the coup that overthrew Siuan?

 

I think it's worth looking over again.

 

(I know that anyone can wear anything in dreams, and those in TAR consciously can choose whatever they will.  I know that the woman in green could have just been a lot further away than the blond woman, thus the difference in description. I know, I know, I know.  Please don't reply with pedantic s**t like that.  I know.

 

The point I'm trying to make is one about style and subtlety.  It seems that BS and RJ both love to drop the most teeny-tiny of bread crumbs for the uber-geeks to feast upon, spend months digesting on, and inevitably get acid indigestion from.  I think this might just qualify.  I might just be wrong.  Comment on that, or anything else meaningful, if you will.)   

[JakeBarnes]

The only green sister in the group that deposed Suian, to my knowledge, was Joline. 

There aren't any truly viable green sisters, based on RJ's comments that we had enough information BEFORE CoT to nail her down, and CERTAINLY have enough after COT. 

 

The only one who you could even dream of considering is Talene, and that is incorrect.

 

 

[Paerish Swar]

The only green sister in the group that deposed Suian, to my knowledge, was Joline. 

There aren't any truly viable green sisters, based on RJ's comments that we had enough information BEFORE CoT to nail her down, and CERTAINLY have enough after COT. 

 

The only one who you could even dream of considering is Talene, and that is incorrect.

 

You are absolutely correct.

 

I went running to my books to try to find some more information that could relate to my hunch, but came up empty handed.  I then scoured the 13th depository because I just knew there was another Green mentioned somewhere who had something fishy going on about her.  I didn't find what I was looking for, but I think I found the source of my (misplaced) suspicions.

 

At the end of the last chapter of tGS, Egwene muses about the three Aes Sedai who were not on Verin's list, who had left just before the purge in the Tower, and who had not been taken by the Seanchan.  One of the three was Teramina, a Green.

 

I believe this is the first mention of her we see in the entire series and Egwene wonders is she might have been the AS that Mesaana was impersonating.  We know that she certainly was not impersonating Teramina.

 

I guess I got my wires crossed; I knew there was something strange about some green sister somewhere, but I couldn't remember where, when, or who.  When I reread the Egwene-TAR scene the image linked up with something I didn't really remember correctly.

 

My bad.

 

Disregard my previous post.

[Aquarius]

I like that idea of the woman in a green dress in T'AR. Not ALL AS wear dresses of their Ajah colors all the time, and some just use embroidery of their Ajah's color as a reminder.

[crazydiamond1457]

I like that idea of the woman in a green dress in T'AR. Not ALL AS wear dresses of their Ajah colors all the time, and some just use embroidery of their Ajah's color as a reminder.

 

I seem to remember Alviarin's POV stated that she noticed Messana wearing bronze, not green, colored skirts beneath the MoM.  Can anyone verify that?

[Aquarius]

I like that idea of the woman in a green dress in T'AR. Not ALL AS wear dresses of their Ajah colors all the time, and some just use embroidery of their Ajah's color as a reminder.

 

I seem to remember Alviarin's POV stated that she noticed Messana wearing bronze, not green, colored skirts beneath the MoM.  Can anyone verify that?

No need to verify. that's what is said, yes. But that's just a dress...; you don't put the same shirt every day for two months when going to work...

[Paerish Swar]

I seem to remember Alviarin's POV stated that she noticed Messana wearing bronze, not green, colored skirts beneath the MoM.  Can anyone verify that?

 

There are two times when the MoM is broken. 

 

The first time is in tPoD, when Alviarin grovels and grabs at the hem of her skirt.  She sees "flickers of bronze silk" with "embroidered black scrollwork."

 

The second time is when Shadar Haran breaks the MoM in CoT.  Then Alviarin sees Mesaana "garbed in bronze-embroidered green."

 

Mesaana was wearing white in tGS, and when we saw Mesaana for the first time I think I remember that she was wearing a shade of red, or like a reddish brown color.

 

I also believe that all (or most) of these fabrics are described as being silk.

 

So we have bronze with black, green with bronze, unadorned white, and a shade of red or brown.

 

(Ooh, ooh, ooh!  Maybe she's posing as a Grey!  It's so diplomatic of her to acknowledge so many Ajahs in her choices of dress colors.)

[Dreamwalker]

After finishing my series reread, I finally did a blog post on Mesaana's identity in the Tower. Like a lot of you, I'm pretty convinced she's Danelle, and I lay out step by step the all of the evidence that led me to that theory.

Enjoy  :)

 

http://telaranrhiod-awheeloftimeblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/mesaana-enemy-within.html

 

EDIT: It's pretty long, that's why I decided not to repost the whole thing here

[JakeBarnes]

http://telaranrhiod-awheeloftimeblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/mesaana-enemy-within.html

 

EDIT: It's pretty long, that's why I decided not to repost the whole thing here

 

I agree with you.  The only thing that bugs me is 'Why the hell didn't she show up to the Cleansing?'  Was she just afraid?  I NEED this to come up in the next book.

[Astus]

http://telaranrhiod-awheeloftimeblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/mesaana-enemy-within.html

 

EDIT: It's pretty long, that's why I decided not to repost the whole thing here

 

I agree with you.  The only thing that bugs me is 'Why the hell didn't she show up to the Cleansing?'  Was she just afraid?  I NEED this to come up in the next book.

I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier. Maybe she was occupied in some task and that by disappearing it would raise questions? Whatever the case, I'm anticipating the answer.

[Dreamwalker]

http://telaranrhiod-awheeloftimeblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/mesaana-enemy-within.html

 

EDIT: It's pretty long, that's why I decided not to repost the whole thing here

 

I agree with you.  The only thing that bugs me is 'Why the hell didn't she show up to the Cleansing?'  Was she just afraid?  I NEED this to come up in the next book.

I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier. Maybe she was occupied in some task and that by disappearing it would raise questions? Whatever the case, I'm anticipating the answer.

 

Yeah, I can think of only two possibilities there:

1. she was being a scared little wimp

2. it would have blown her cover to leave

 

I suspect it's 2 - I could see Elaida having an emergency meeting with her little Council concerning the ridiculous amount of power being used off in the distance. I could buy that if that's the explanation, because if Danelle just didn't show up to that meeting or left abruptly everyone would find it really weird and remark on it - cover = blown. I guess 1 could have factored in as well in that scenario :)

[DemandredFO]

Maybe did have something do with her cover but it must've been important, to her personally or her position.  She had to have known that the DO would not be pleased.  On another note, could someone post Shaidar Haran's exact words, maybe that'll aid us.

[wumpus]

Siuan never felt the shield be woven and never saw the glow of saidar around any of the women until Elaida embraces the Source – after Siuan was already shielded! This means that the shield was inverted, which modern Aes Sedai do not know is even possible. Therefore Mesaana must have done it, so she must be one of the sisters in the group that comes to capture Siuan. The only sister in the list of those that come to capture Siuan that matches Mesaana’s blue eyes and who cannot be ruled out by other means (being Black Ajah, being out of the Tower later, or having the story told from their Point of View at some point in the series) is Danelle.

 

We know Siuan was one of the more powerful tower channelers of the time. Has it been considered, given the description of the shield and the lack of even a struggle to keep it in place, that the person placing it was significantly more powerful than Siuan almost requiring Mesaana to be in that group as further evidence it was Danelle?