Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[StefanR]

I don't know if someones already said this but could messana be sharina melloy because they obviously didn't make the novices swear the oaths and she seems strong enough one hole in the theory however is that it doesebt make sense that she would warn siuan about lelaine trying to scare the sisters into making her armylin because lelaine would probably keep the tower in the state of chaos it's in which would be good for the dark one 

 

Graendal has people in the WT that have told her Mesanna is posing as an AS

[JakeBarnes]

Alviarin wanted Doesine and Yukiri watched because she put two and two together when Talene deferred to the two of them during a meeting in COT Chapter 21.  It was suspicious behavior.

 

I agree that Mesaana posing as a Sitter would connect a few dots, but I feel the beter choice when pointing fingers at a Sitter is Shevan.

 

What makes you think that?

 

I'm not dismissing it, merely curios as to the evidence

 

The only real evidence for Shevan is the bit from TPOD Chapter 25 regarding her dress.  The part about Alviarin wanting Yukiri and Doesine watched is straight from Alvi's thoughts in COT CH21. 

 

For the record, though, I no longer consider Shevan a likely suspect.  I just think the dress is harder evidence than anything we have on Doesine.  The bit about the chair of remorse is intersting, though.  Why does a Yellow know that?

[yoniy0]

Also, if you go back and read the chapter where Siuan gets taken down you'll notice a few things. She's shielded before any of them embrace saider. Some have argued she can't possible look at all dozen Sisters to check for the glow. Nonsense. She clearly pays very careful attention to the shawl of each woman, and what Ajah they're a part of. So she studied each woman and saw no glow. Yet was shielded. So clearly one of those women was Mesaana, who can hide her channeling.

Yes, I agree. Two things, though. First, I'm not sure if you could hide the fact that you're holding the Source without hiding your ability. I mean, I know Egwene/Elayne don't know a way to do that. Now, we're told by RJ that Mesaana does know a way to disguise her full potential without hiding her ability altogether, but is that the same thing?

Second, the Reds with Elaida aren't mentioned by name, but they're supposedly all three Sitters for the Red. Either one of them could also be considered for the job. And what about the Sitter that vanished, the one that wasn't on Verin's list? She might have been there as well (Siuan notes that at least one sister from each Ajah is present, presumably excluding the Blue, but we don't know exactly who).

[Sharaman]

Doesine, Cargeinian, (so on the short side), very foul-mouthed, looks like a pretty boy, "a yellow sister of some repute".

Spanks Egwene with a hairbrush (?) but then everyone spanks Egwene. Heals her as well.

Has friends though - so more difficult to imitate, apart from the non-parliamentary language.

Doesn't feature before TPoD though.

 

 

Also, if you go back and read the chapter where Siuan gets taken down you'll notice a few things. She's shielded before any of them embrace saider. Some have argued she can't possible look at all dozen Sisters to check for the glow. Nonsense. She clearly pays very careful attention to the shawl of each woman, and what Ajah they're a part of. So she studied each woman and saw no glow. Yet was shielded. So clearly one of those women was Mesaana, who can hide her channeling.

Yes, I agree. Two things, though. First, I'm not sure if you could hide the fact that you're holding the Source without hiding your ability. I mean, I know Egwene/Elayne don't know a way to do that. Now, we're told by RJ that Mesaana does know a way to disguise her full potential without hiding her ability altogether, but is that the same thing?

Second, the Reds with Elaida aren't mentioned by name, but they're supposedly all three Sitters for the Red. Either one of them could also be considered for the job. And what about the Sitter that vanished, the one that wasn't on Verin's list? She might have been there as well (Siuan notes that at least one sister from each Ajah is present, presumably excluding the Blue, but we don't know exactly who).

 

Mesaana can hide her ability while holding the source. She shows Alviarin the weaves for travel, while completely concealing her ability to channel - the weaves come out of nowhere. She can also partially mask her ability. 

 

[lillcheese]

I find it a little difficult to understand why the rest of the deposing party didn't demand to be taught how to hide the weaves from whoever Messy was posing as.  Only thing I can think of is that Messy put a light compulsion on them to not question it.

[Sharaman]

Or of course, it was a "slip" - Siuan was so distracted that she didn't notice.

[Tragon]

The smirk from Danelle when Siuan got booted is enough for me, let alone all the other evidence for her.

 

I halfway agree here.  Most of me is still on the Danelle train, but the quote from RJ was that readers SHOULD have enough information before COT, and CERTAINLY will after COT.  What Happened in COT to make further point the finger at Danelle?

 

Physical descriptions of Mesaana.  She has big blue eyes, like Danelle, and she's seen in a Brown dress, when most of the people in the Tower are wearing Ajah colors.  You basically should know at this point that you're looking for someone physically similar, and Danelle fits that better than most any other Brown we know.

 

Wrong about the dress part. "blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green" COT

I have thought it to be Danelle for a long time but Im not so sure. Shes not mentioned in COT and Mesaanas dress is green. As you said most Aes Sedai is dressed in their Ajah colour, in which case she is posing as a Green. Green Ajah does not fit with Mesaana though.

[yoniy0]

Mesaana can hide her ability while holding the source. She shows Alviarin the weaves for travel, while completely concealing her ability to channel - the weaves come out of nowhere. She can also partially mask her ability. 

Yes, but can she hide the fact that she's holding the Source WITHOUT masking her ability entirely? The two seem to be related.

 

I find it a little difficult to understand why the rest of the deposing party didn't demand to be taught how to hide the weaves from whoever Messy was posing as.  Only thing I can think of is that Messy put a light compulsion on them to not question it.

The idea, at least what I took from it, was that she didn't tell them anything. They had good reason to be confident, going into Siuan's study after neutralizing Leanne and Alric, so they might thought Siuan simply understood that she had no chance and didn't embrace the Source. All the while, Mesaana took precautionary measures.

[bronnt]

 

Wrong about the dress part. "blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green" COT

I have thought it to be Danelle for a long time but Im not so sure. Shes not mentioned in COT and Mesaanas dress is green. As you said most Aes Sedai is dressed in their Ajah colour, in which case she is posing as a Green. Green Ajah does not fit with Mesaana though.

 

It's a green dress in CoT, but bronze in tPoD.  Bronze both times, which makes me think brown.

[mossman87]

The smirk from Danelle when Siuan got booted is enough for me, let alone all the other evidence for her.

 

I halfway agree here.  Most of me is still on the Danelle train, but the quote from RJ was that readers SHOULD have enough information before COT, and CERTAINLY will after COT.  What Happened in COT to make further point the finger at Danelle?

CoT prologue, after Alvarian meets with Elaida she's returning to her quarters and notices..

'The only one to ignore her was Danelle, a dreamy Brown sister. She had been part of bringing down Siuan Sanche and raising Elaida, but lost in her own thoughts, a solitary with no friends even in her own Ajah, she seemed unaware that she had been shoved aside.'

 

I just put a lot of stock in very subtle comments like that. The fact Danelle was the only sister to ignore Alvarian, for example. There's a reason RJ puts in a line like that.

 

Also, if you go back and read the chapter where Siuan gets taken down you'll notice a few things. She's shielded before any of them embrace saider. Some have argued she can't possible look at all dozen Sisters to check for the glow. Nonsense. She clearly pays very careful attention to the shawl of each woman, and what Ajah they're a part of. So she studied each woman and saw no glow. Yet was shielded. So clearly one of those women was Mesaana, who can hide her channeling. There's also two small comments about Danelee in the passage:

 

'...came close behind with Danelle, her big blue eyes not dreamy at all.' As well as 'Little Danelle actually smirked at her.'

 

Why such a shift from her usual dreamy, unconcerned state?

 

Just want to say, you bring up a point of why Danelle would do something.  Why would Danelle smirk at Siuan when she was shielded and destroyed?  It was never explained.  It's just there.  Sure it could be a red herring but we are told we should know who Mesaana is by now, well there you go.  She's so dreamy yet at this point she brought in hidden soldiers to take over the tower and also helps usurp the the Amyrlin, she smirks at her.  Why the smirk? Never explained.  It's obvious.

 

Edit:

# Danelle has two hundred soldiers brought into the White Tower disguised as masons. (TSR,Ch47)

# Danelle is one of Elaida's party that takes Siuan into custody. (TSR,Ch47) (*with smirk)

 

These two things alone, what have we seen of Danelle to know why she'd ever do either?  Nothing.  Exactly.

[DemandredFO]

It seems to be Danelle but my only question would be why not show up at the cleansing.  I mean didn't she know Moridon and the DO would be pissed.  What of importance could Danelle, who has sunk back into oblivion, have been involved in that would cause her to miss the battle

[mossman87]

It seems to be Danelle but my only question would be why not show up at the cleansing.  I mean didn't she know Moridon and the DO would be pissed.  What of importance could Danelle, who has sunk back into oblivion, have been involved in that would cause her to miss the battle

 

Well Semi missed it too, but she didn't get punished because in her situation it was hard to get out of, so maybe Mesaana was just too scared to go and that's why she got punished?

[Sharaman]

Mesaana can hide her ability while holding the source. She shows Alviarin the weaves for travel, while completely concealing her ability to channel - the weaves come out of nowhere. She can also partially mask her ability.  

Yes, but can she hide the fact that she's holding the Source WITHOUT masking her ability entirely? The two seem to be related.

 

Not much evidence. The only other person IIRC who we see explicitly holding the source is totally masking - Graendal at the cleansing when Verin tries to shield her and the shield rebounds.

Doesn't mean Messi can't do a partial.

You can argue that if she's imitating a sister, she must be able to do a partial. Sometime or other, she's going to have to channel in front of other people and it'll be weird if her apparent strength either goes to zero or jumps to Chosen levels.

But there's no specific instance when we know she has channeled in front of someone while maintaining a partial.

 

 

I find it a little difficult to understand why the rest of the deposing party didn't demand to be taught how to hide the weaves from whoever Messy was posing as.  Only thing I can think of is that Messy put a light compulsion on them to not question it.

The idea, at least what I took from it, was that she didn't tell them anything. They had good reason to be confident, going into Siuan's study after neutralizing Leanne and Alric, so they might thought Siuan simply understood that she had no chance and didn't embrace the Source. All the while, Mesaana took precautionary measures.

 

Yes, that's the way it could work - invisible shield and nobody diagnoses it and says anything.

But it would go kablooey if Suian asks " Who the @^&#* is holding this weird shield on me and how?"

Doesn't make sense really - all the sisters had to do was decide before the confrontation that they would shield her if she tried to grab saidar without Messi taking unilateral and revealing action.

 

It seems to be Danelle but my only question would be why not show up at the cleansing.  I mean didn't she know Moridon and the DO would be pissed.  What of importance could Danelle, who has sunk back into oblivion, have been involved in that would cause her to miss the battle

 

Well Semi missed it too, but she didn't get punished because in her situation it was hard to get out of, so maybe Mesaana was just too scared to go and that's why she got punished?

 

According to RJ, Semi didn't miss it.

He just didn't write in her part explicitly. She's one of the line of explosions that other Chosen see.

Only Moridin (for RAFO reasons) and Messi missed.

 

 

[Aquarius]

Only Moridin (for RAFO reasons) and Messi missed.

Obviously, if Moridin missed it, it's either because the theory about being sick when the other guy channels Saidin is true, OR, because cleansing Saidin was something the Dark Side also needed for the last battle. (you can imagine whatever you want at this point)

[Crael123]

well moridin is kinda like the emporor in star wars. you never see him fight, just see him order people too fight (sorry only example i could think of)

[Sharaman]

Only Moridin (for RAFO reasons) and Messi missed.

Obviously, if Moridin missed it, it's either because the theory about being sick when the other guy channels Saidin is true, OR, because cleansing Saidin was something the Dark Side also needed for the last battle. (you can imagine whatever you want at this point)

 

I meant when RJ was asked why Moridin was not at the cleansing, he said "RAFO".

Indeed, you can imagine many theories about it.

[rollthedice]

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first time poster.

 

Let me post a suspect I have not seen and a brief overview of why.

 

Doesin Alwain  - Sitter for the Yellow, one hunters of the Black in the WT.  Has no warder

 

She appeared to be trying to find out what the heads of the ajahs were up to with Yukiri, Saerin and Talene (which was one of Mesaana's tasks).  She swore she was not "Black Ajah" on the rod, not "darkfriend".  Thus she may have defeated the "Purge".

 

Her back was to the door (ready to scat) when they confronted the original Hunters.  Her skirt hem was close enough in color (dark bronze / gold  / and black).

 

She alone knew how to operate the Chair of Remorse (AOL Relic) and said it had been a long time since she operated it.

 

She alone wanted them to make all sisters in the tower take the oath to obey them, but everyone ignored her.  How nice it could have been for her to only have to kill 4 AS and have control of every sister in the tower. 

 

When Alviarin summoned Mesaana after being fired as keeper, Mesaana seemed to already know about it.  This is because she was with the rest of the sitters and Alviarin when she was told.  The sitters left before Alviarin.  When Alviarin got back to her quarters, Doesine would be available as Mesaana.

 

Alviarin wanted her and Yukiri watched.  I'm sure Alviarin had her suspicions too.

 

 

Not to beat a dead horse but I am just beginning to compile my facts.

 

 

I forgot to add that she was the sister that was caught by the reds on their turf and beaten for it.  What was a yellow sitter doing sulking around the reds quarters?

[Sharaman]

Are you sure Doesine was beaten by the Reds?

She's a sitter, very doubtful that she would be touched under even the circumstances of suspicion outlined and I don't remember this reference to Doesine at all.

[rollthedice]

They refer to it in TPOD ch 26 when they run into the original black hunters.

[morkhon]

Or of course, it was a "slip" - Siuan was so distracted that she didn't notice.

It is a LOT more believable that a dozen women who all had their attention solely on Siuan didn't think to check every other Sister to see if they embraced saidar, rather than the fact that as Siuan carefully studied the shawl and Ajah of each of those sisters, that she didn't notice the glow. That just would make absolutely no sense.

[yoniy0]

Mesaana can hide her ability while holding the source. She shows Alviarin the weaves for travel, while completely concealing her ability to channel - the weaves come out of nowhere. She can also partially mask her ability. 

Yes, but can she hide the fact that she's holding the Source WITHOUT masking her ability entirely? The two seem to be related.

Not much evidence. The only other person IIRC who we see explicitly holding the source is totally masking - Graendal at the cleansing when Verin tries to shield her and the shield rebounds.

Doesn't mean Messi can't do a partial.

You can argue that if she's imitating a sister, she must be able to do a partial. Sometime or other, she's going to have to channel in front of other people and it'll be weird if her apparent strength either goes to zero or jumps to Chosen levels.

But there's no specific instance when we know she has channeled in front of someone while maintaining a partial.

We actually do get a bit of insight into the process when Leanne tries to block Southharbor (that one we only hear of from another sister's PoV) and when Elayne gets ready to take on the BA sisters in Caemlyn. Both don't know how to partially mask their ability, so we're limited in the conclusions we can draw from those scenes.

Still, IMOH, you're confusing two distinct things. We actually don't know if you could partially mask your ability and then embrace the Source, but let's assume that you can (if Mesaana never channeled, some would get suspicious). Then it's safe to assume that if she'd refrain from drawing too deeply, none would be the wiser. But could she hide the glow of the Power (i.e. the fact that she's actively holding it at the moment) without masking her ability completely? That, to me, seems less likely (as I mentioned above, I would think that if one likes to hide that fact COMPLETELY, she would have to also COMPLETELY hide her potential in the process). However, nothing in the books excludes the possibility, and my idea of how things work was proven wrong countless times before, so I guess all I can say for sure is I don't know. That's why I asked what you guys think.

[rollthedice]

Another Doesine trait:

 

I know it is not the same as tapping her lip, but RJ does note that she licks her lips on two occations. (a stretch,, I know)

[yoniy0]

For me, Doesine has one major thing going for her NOT being a dark-side-loyalist. Remember the talk she had with Egwene after she Healed her for the first time? I can't see someone loyal to the DO admiring the way Egwene has handled herself.

[Druugan]

Graendal's spies in the WT have seen Mesaana and stated that she is posing as an AS; besides confirming that she is posing as an AS, it also seems to imply that she looks like herself.  Also, when Mesaana appears to Alviarin she disguises herself, this also seems to imply that she is wandering the tower looking like herself.  This seems to be further verified when the illusion is shattered and Alviarin recognizes her as an AS in the Tower.  So we obviously need someone that fits the description.

 

Mesaana is described as being just short of her middle years with blue eyes.  In KoD it is said that her dominant feature is her big blue eyes.  This seems to fit Danelle who is described as being young with big blue eyes.  The fact that she is described as being young would imply that she doesn't yet have the ageless face; which Mesaana also doesn't have.

 

Mesaana is seen to be wearing a green dress with bronze embroidery.  Many AS are described wearing dresses of varying colors that don't match their Ajah color, but usually include their Ajah color as embroidery on the dress.  The bronze embroidery would be consistent with someone of the Brown Ajah.  Danelle is of the Brown.

 

It seems likely that whoever Mesanna is would likely have be involved in Siuan's downfall.  Danelle wasn't just involved, she brought in the soldiers disguised as masons and was one of those present to arrest Siuan.

 

Alviarin noted that Mesaana knew things that transpired in Elaida's meetings; but not everything that happened in the WT.  This would imply that Mesanna would likely be close to the meetings, if not in them.  Danelle was one of the Elaida's council and was privy to what was discussed in those closed meetings.

 

When Alviarin came from her private meeting with Elaida when she was "fired" Mesaana appeared immediately as though she knew she would be back.  This would imply that Mesanna could have seen her returning to her room.  Alviarin had passed several AS on the way to her room, one of the first being Danelle.  Perhaps almost as if she were waiting.  She's distinguished in that walk as being the only AS not to look at her, perhaps almost as if she were deliberately ignoring her.

 

It would seem to make sense that Mesaana wouldn't want to get too close to any other AS to try her best to keep her cover.  Danelle is described as having no friends, not even in her own Ajah.

 

Mesaana is likely to be very preoccupied with scheming.  Danelle is described often seemingly lost in a dream and being dreamy even compared with other Browns.

 

Wait... an overly dreamy Brown with no friends, even amongst her own Ajah, just up and decided to bring in an army and help take down Siuan and raise Elaida and become part of her council?  That seems a bit intriguing.

 

I just don't see the evidence as strong in favor for anyone else in the WT.  And seeing that RJ and BS said that we have enough clues to figure out who she is seems to confirm that it should be someone that we can draw definitive correlation to; someone with a good amount of evidence pointing at them.

 

In my humble opinion, nobody fits the bill better than Danelle.  If I were a betting man, and I am, that's where all my money would be riding.

[yoniy0]

This seems to fit Danelle who is described as being young with big blue eyes.  The fact that she is described as being young would imply that she doesn't yet have the ageless face; which Mesaana also doesn't have.

I agree with most everything you wrote, but being described as young doesn't mean anything of the sort, as I see matters. She is a Sitter, and everyone in the Tower knows how old each of those are (at least, how many years they've been AS). Being described as young only means she's relatively young for the job. Remember, this was before the split and the Ajah heads' scheme. Having a Sitter young enough not to have the ageless face pushes incredulity (actually, I'd say it's just plain impossible).