Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[grump]

Okay  One theory coming up

 

Mesaana is a teacher and researcher. in the Prologue of TGS  Grendal says that  freedom of research may have been a factor inj her pledging to the DO.

 

that would make her a brown,  The sister I'm thinking of was publicly ordered to be in the 6 person official envoy to Rand by her Ajah head. (although she states she would have been happy to come anyway))In her POV she laments that with all the time that has passed, she still has been able to catalog 50 new plants and animals. She also mentions that however things turn out she plans to write a paper on rand,

 

Eguene tells the wise ones that this sister has a habit of speaking her thoughts out loud, and they are told she has been muttering about seals in the library.

 

After the battle of the Wells she is the only sister who pays any attention to what is going on.  from this point on she is constantly shielded and guarded 24 hours a day. Perhaps this is why she missed her meeting with the chosen.

 

She is among the first 5 to swear to Rand, her reason being she cant study him from where she is now  Min says all of them will serve him in their own fashion and get them by.

 

Soralei feels they would benifit from a trip, and asks Caudsuane to take them with her to Far Madding.  as this sister comes through the gate she is wearing a bronze dress.

 

She reacts most sharply when Rand tells cuadsuane  he is going to cleanse the mens power.

 

She is in one of the defence circles but not controling the flow when he does it  her circle is one with causultys.

 

at this point you wonder if she was punished for not coming or not helping the bad guys enough.

 

In TGS she first makes an appearance when Simi escapes as a corpse,but hurrah a few minutes later she is weak but alive.  Why is that I wonder? none of the 3 should have been left alive.

 

You can't find her in the tower, because she is one of those who have been gone for a while and can't be checked on until they get back.

 

you can find her name by looking at any of the places discribed

 

peck away        the grump

[WolfDragonFox]

Whoever your taking about, I can't bring the name up in my mind right now but the hole in that theory is that she swore to Rand.  Being part of those sisters that swears to Rand she was subjected to the wise ones as semi apprentices.  She would have to use the MoM to change her appearance in order for Lews Therin to not recognize her when she swore to him.  But that would have been discovered from any touch which surely happened so it can't be her. 

[thewalrus777]

Whoever your taking about, I can't bring the name up in my mind right now but the hole in that theory is that she swore to Rand.  Being part of those sisters that swears to Rand she was subjected to the wise ones as semi apprentices.  She would have to use the MoM to change her appearance in order for Lews Therin to not recognize her when she swore to him.  But that would have been discovered from any touch which surely happened so it can't be her. 

 

yeah that's true, but only if she changed her appearance drastically. If she only made subtle changes to her appearance, then she could actually physically interact with people, without disturbing her MoM weave.

[Majsju]

Whoever your taking about, I can't bring the name up in my mind right now but the hole in that theory is that she swore to Rand.  Being part of those sisters that swears to Rand she was subjected to the wise ones as semi apprentices.  She would have to use the MoM to change her appearance in order for Lews Therin to not recognize her when she swore to him.  But that would have been discovered from any touch which surely happened so it can't be her. 

 

yeah that's true, but only if she changed her appearance drastically. If she only made subtle changes to her appearance, then she could actually physically interact with people, without disturbing her MoM weave.

 

Creating the Ageless look is not exactly a subtle change.

 

Second problem, the link. While it is possible to mask your strength, it is not  possible to deliberatly decrease the amount of Saidar drawn through you. Seems quite unlikely the one leading the circle would not react to the powerboost given by having a forsaken in your circle.

 

Third problem, I assume it is Nesune who is the suspect here. Min had a viewing abut her, that she would find a library and recieve honours and fame. Hardly the fate any of the forsaken can look forward to. She also has a Warder, something that would be extremely odd for a forsaken.

 

Fourth problem, we actually have a POV from Nesune (LOC27). A POV that speaks for itself...

 

Do I need to go on?

[Taura-Tierno]

Danelle seems like the best suspect at this point.  But if that is the case, what would have caused her to miss the Cleansing?

Mesaana was also missing from the Forsaken meeting where Rand's plan to cleanse Saidin was revealed.  According to the timeline, The cleansing occured on March 8, and the meeting happened on February 17.  This extends the window of Mesanna being occupied with other matters to at least this date.  On February 6th, the BA hunters unmasked Zerah as a spy and Talene as black.  

This, and Elaida sending Narenwhin to Dorlan to speak with Gawyn are the only 2 instances which would occupy her during this time.

 

So, a list of sisters in the WT who were occupied at this time gives us: Narenwhin, Saerin, Seaine, Doesine, Yukiri, Pevara, Talene.  Talene is a 'no' because the oath rod worked on her.  Seaine and Pevara are out, because they are purposefully searching for the BA.  Saerin seems like a good choice because she doesn't allow Talene to attend the BA meeting, and then forward the plans to the hunters.  The others, who knows.

 

 

Actually, since Mesaana ordered Alviarin to find out about the Black Ajah hunters, it's seems highly unlikely that she was pretending to be one of those.

 

 

Creating the Ageless look is not exactly a subtle change.

 

Actually, isn't the Ageless look always mentioned to be something subtle, something you can't really point to? I mean, yeah, it's presence changes the appearance of the person enough that someone who knows them well WITH it cannot really recognize them without it ... but it's still subtle, since it doesn't change the physical features of the person. That is, you should be able to touch someone with a MoM ageless look, without knowing it's an illusion.

 

[grump]

Min got all 5 a pass, including black elza at the swearing, by telling rand they would all serve in their own fashion.

 

and this sister was the only one sharp enough to detect eguene hidden in the corner

 

The POV proves she is as passionate a researcher as Grendal says she was

 

weaves can be inverted and tied off, so what does appearance have to do with anything.

 

All of the Chosen can disguise and control their power levels cant they?

 

keep pecking  the grump

[Kivam]

Min got all 5 a pass, including black elza at the swearing, by telling rand they would all serve in their own fashion.

 

and this sister was the only one sharp enough to detect eguene hidden in the corner

 

The POV proves she is as passionate a researcher as Grendal says she was

 

weaves can be inverted and tied off, so what does appearance have to do with anything.

 

All of the Chosen can disguise and control their power levels cant they?

 

keep pecking   the grump

 

Moghedien's PoV during the cleansing seems to destroy this - it has her "creeping closer" and moving in by herself, then almost blown away by the vacuum - which means she couldn't have been anyone in the circles

[Calderis]

Moghedien's PoV during the cleansing seems to destroy this - it has her "creeping closer" and moving in by herself, then almost blown away by the vacuum - which means she couldn't have been anyone in the circles

 

Except the discuission is about messy, not Mog.

 

 

Actually, isn't the Ageless look always mentioned to be something subtle, something you can't really point to? I mean, yeah, it's presence changes the appearance of the person enough that someone who knows them well WITH it cannot really recognize them without it ... but it's still subtle, since it doesn't change the physical features of the person. That is, you should be able to touch someone with a MoM ageless look, without knowing it's an illusion.

 

 

It's very much something subtle. It's one of the things that if you remember in the beginning, no one recognized unless they'd spent a lot of time around Aes Sedai. It was always described as somethign that you just couldn't quite make out the age. Over time the books spent so much time with Aes Sedai though, that all of the character's just recognize this and it's thrown out in a way that's like you can't miss it.

 

It's a very subtle thing tho, much more drastic change after being stilled.

[Sharaman]

Agelessness is like botox - it tightens the skin and makes it more immobile. Happens all over the body, going by the descriptions of oaths "settling". So, it would make a young person look older and an old person seem younger since they'd have less lines and wrinkles. (Lord knows what it does to an AS who is anorexic, but we've never come across one who didn't have a healthy appetite.)

She's mimicking an ageless face, which is somewhat similar to her own, going by Alviarin's description of vaguely familiar.

But unless the sister she's mimicking looked like her twin, there would be some differences in basic features as well.

Slightly longer nose, or fuller lips, or whatever.

If Messi's face is touched, the MoM would probably break but she doesn't have to fiddle her height, or hair length/ colour, if she's picked a sister, who looks similar and has a similar physique.

She would get nailed if Nyn was in her vicinity since Nyn's ter'angreal detects inverted, tied weaves as in Semirhage's MoM.

Other than that, or some other stroke of luck ( For instance: Bloodknife attacks Messi and she loses her MoM in the shock of being wounded), Egwene will have to find her by pure logic.

 

 

[lillcheese]

Although I am generally in the Danelle camp, I'm on tSR and noticed something about Laras that makes me question once again whether perhaps she could be our not-so-great Forsaken.

 

Just before being deposed, Suian comments to herself that ever since she gave Laras the "Mistress of Kitchens" title, Laras no longer felt the need to do the accounting.

 

I then thought to how many interactions we had with Laras after the supergirls run off to Tear.  All we have is Min's account of Laras pestering her. It's possible that Messy recognized her after spying on Rand's dreams.  Before you say it, I know we have no evidence of Messy spying on his dreams.  All of the forsaken seem to be able to use TAR so it remains a possibility.  It's also possible Messy has some idea about Min's viewings and was watching for reactions.

 

Finally, I don't think AS would notice a difference in Laras.  Not much call for an AS to talk to the chef, particularly when there are servants to fetch dinner.

[Sharaman]

Laras -- she's in charge of many servants, who she constantly supervises.

Difficult for her to get away.

She wears a white apron at work.

When Messi is summoned in a hurry by Alvi during the day, when Laras would be in the jitchen wearing her apron, Messi is wearing a bronze silk dress.

All circumstantial, true.

Also Graendal's statement that Messi was hiding as an AS in the Tower and Graendal was having her watched.

 

[thewalrus777]

And remember, Verin has stated openly that Laras is NOT a DF. And Verin has had years to cipher who was corrupt within the WT. Laras is not evil. Also, as posted before, Graendal has people watching every Chosen, and she knows exactly where Mesaana is and what she is doing at all times. If Graendal says Mesi is posing as an Aes Sedai, then she's posing as an Aes Sedai. The only Chosen Graendal knows nothing about is Demandred, but of course no one knows about Demandred really.

[lillcheese]

Walrus:

I don't think Verin's statement re Laras is that significant in the story.  Verin could have cleared Laras years ago, before the Forsaken were freed. On the other hand, if you think Verin's statement is a message from BS to us re Laras, similar to the statement about Rand never hearing the voice again, I'd agree.

 

Graendal thinks she knows what Messy is doing, but we haven't seen any of the evidence on which she's basing her belief. I'm surprised that you think the Forsaken can't be wrong.

 

Sharaman:

I thought of the getting away problem. I think I've even posted about it arguing against Laras. Then I noticed that Laras is apparently able to get away well enough to keep an eye on Elmindreda when she's sitting in one of the gardens trying to embroider. 

 

The dress is a sticking point.

[lbeefus]

Walrus:

I don't think Verin's statement re Laras is that significant in the story.  Verin could have cleared Laras years ago, before the Forsaken were freed. On the other hand, if you think Verin's statement is a message from BS to us re Laras, similar to the statement about Rand never hearing the voice again, I'd agree.

 

Its not just that Verin says Laras isn't a darkfriend, its that she says she's "many things", but not a darkfriend. To me, this means that Verin acknowledges some of the oddities about Laras, but also knows what's behind them.  And that is why I feel like Verin's statement is probably true: misdirection by an author is one thing, but there's no hint that Verin is wrong, and a big of hint that Verin knows what's up with Laras.

[thewalrus777]

Walrus:

I don't think Verin's statement re Laras is that significant in the story.  Verin could have cleared Laras years ago, before the Forsaken were freed. On the other hand, if you think Verin's statement is a message from BS to us re Laras, similar to the statement about Rand never hearing the voice again, I'd agree.

 

Graendal thinks she knows what Messy is doing, but we haven't seen any of the evidence on which she's basing her belief. I'm surprised that you think the Forsaken can't be wrong.

 

Sharaman:

I thought of the getting away problem. I think I've even posted about it arguing against Laras. Then I noticed that Laras is apparently able to get away well enough to keep an eye on Elmindreda when she's sitting in one of the gardens trying to embroider. 

 

The dress is a sticking point.

 

I don't always think the Forsaken are always right. I just think that Graendal is very correct in her assumptions in regards to Mesaana. She's stated it with a true certainty that her spies in the WT are watching Mesaana play Aes Sedai. Why would Graendal lie. Even RJ has said that the Forsaken are very truthful sometimes. And Verin's statement in regards to Mesaana only confirm that Graendal is correct.

[lillcheese]

Walrus:

I don't think Verin's statement re Laras is that significant in the story.  Verin could have cleared Laras years ago, before the Forsaken were freed. On the other hand, if you think Verin's statement is a message from BS to us re Laras, similar to the statement about Rand never hearing the voice again, I'd agree.

 

Graendal thinks she knows what Messy is doing, but we haven't seen any of the evidence on which she's basing her belief. I'm surprised that you think the Forsaken can't be wrong.

 

Sharaman:

I thought of the getting away problem. I think I've even posted about it arguing against Laras. Then I noticed that Laras is apparently able to get away well enough to keep an eye on Elmindreda when she's sitting in one of the gardens trying to embroider. 

 

The dress is a sticking point.

 

I don't always think the Forsaken are always right. I just think that Graendal is very correct in her assumptions in regards to Mesaana. She's stated it with a true certainty that her spies in the WT are watching Mesaana play Aes Sedai. Why would Graendal lie. Even RJ has said that the Forsaken are very truthful sometimes. And Verin's statement in regards to Mesaana only confirm that Graendal is correct.

 

I don't think Graendal is lying in her thoughts.  I think that it's possible she's relying too heavily on what she expects Messy to do - impersonate an AS.  That Messy is in the Tower is well established.  Knowing that, Graendal might be assuming that she's posing as an AS because what else would one of the Chosen do?

 

All that being said, I do think it's most likely that Danelle is our girl.  I just noticed the change in Laras's behavior and didn't remember anyone discussing them previously.

 

 

[thewalrus777]

I too have drank the Danelle kool-aid as you have lilcheese. ;D

[Eht Slat Meit]

All that being said, I do think it's most likely that Danelle is our girl.  I just noticed the change in Laras's behavior and didn't remember anyone discussing them previously.

 

While I tend to agree that Danelle is linked to Mesaana, probably as an alter-ego, I have a suspicion that there's more to this than a single alternate identity. When's the last time we saw Danelle? Crown of Swords? I suspect that akin to Demandred's method of using proxies, Mesaana wears Aes Sedai identities the way she wears those exotic disguises in front of Alviarin, with Danelle simply being the first, Nalasia Merhan another, and the link between then and Mesaana's most recent identity.

 

Unfortunately, I can't seem to make my Cipher Theory work with my current suspect the way it does with Danelle and Nalasia.

 

Time to go re-read on Saerin Asnobar, I guess.

[Sharaman]

Saerin is one of the BA hunters. She took the oaths in that cellar. So if she beat the rod, she's already done it.

Else, are you suggesting that she was kidnapped post that oath and Messi then assumed her ID?

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Saerin is one of the BA hunters. She took the oaths in that cellar. So if she beat the rod, she's already done it.

Else, are you suggesting that she was kidnapped post that oath and Messi then assumed her ID?

 

Possible either way, really, but leaning toward Mesaana infiltrated them at a point of opportunity, which isn't particularly surprising. Looking back...

 

1. Saerin is Brown Ajah

2. Saerin first makes her appearance in PoD. Not that she doesn't have tower history, but this is the first introduction as an active character, like most of the BA Hunters.

3. Saerin was the one that figured out what Pevara and Seaine were up to, and chose her own wording on taking the oaths.

4. Saerin was guarding her when Talene "escaped" (KoD Prologue). Saerin offers no explanation for this. Talene is later mentioned as having left the tower under her own volition. Hmmm, yeah. This is what got my attention.

5. Shadar Haran is righteously peeved at Mesaana's no-showing. This absence is unexplained. Whatever she felt she was doing, it was critical enough for her to directly disobey the DO. This coincides with the timing of the BA Hunters, as indicated by Haran's mention of people hunting his children.

6. Despite her disobedience, Mesaana is alive and while still shaking off the effects of whatever happened, apparently well and moving on her own accord. Whatever she achieved pleased the DO enough to let her... more or less, off the hook.

7. Despite Katerine (BA)'s dismissal of Egewene's Dreaming, and therefore a wide information gap between the Tower BA and the Rebel BA, the entire BA got advance notice of Egewene's Dreaming of the Seanchan attack. They weren't taken by surprise, everyone on Verin's list was alive and well after the raid, according to Egwene. They then escaped.

8. Saerin plays an instrumental role against the Seanchan, putting her firmly in the trusted circle of whomever the surviving Amyrlin is. This should have been Elaida who no longer has a BA Keeper, but to Saerin's shock, Elaida was captured in the raid.

9. Oh yeah, and Pevara's gone missing along with Javindhra. That's two of the three people involved in deciding that the Reds would bond Asha'man, something Taim, who's strongly hinted to be in Demandred's service, easily agreed to. It's a tenuous link, but gives two reasons for Pevara to be dead.

 

I think there's something else I was missing, but that's it for now.

 

As for the ciphers, there's Allende (Forward, aptly descriptive of Danelle's position) and M'Saine al Haran (Nalasia), but I can't seem to work out a full translation from Saerin Asnobar. Getting something to the effect of Saine, sa Arb'nor, which doesn't quite work. Frickin' Old Tongue.

[Sharaman]

Physical appearance.

Saerin is dark skinned, dark-eyed, has white hair, scarred.

Messi is fair skinned, brunette, unscarred, blue-eyed.

When Shaidar breaks her Mask, Alvi thinks she's vaguely familiar - suggests that she is using a MoM to impersonate somebody who looks similar (which is where the Danelle theory arises).

 

Or do you think that Messi is impersonating several sisters, either serially or simultaneously?

Your points. 1,2,3 of course.

4 - Yes that's a mystery since Talene was bound to obey the BA hunters and hence, could not have escaped if she was simply told to sit tight. My personal feeling is that she's still hiding out in the Tower unless she was trotted out and executed (no refrerence). IIRC, we have two references to Talene's disappearance. One is the BA Hunters saying that Saerin has hidden /given Talene permission to hide in the basement rather than go to the BA meeting when Yukiri dissuades Pevara from ambushing the meeting. The other is Alviarin's PoV saying Talene has disappeared with her saddle-bags. Talene may be hiding in the basement with her saddle-bags.

5. Yes.

6. GLoD has now developed a pattern of punishing the Chosen but leaving them alive if He can see a purpose. He doesn't have people to waste. He was extremely angry with Moggy but didn't kill her. He may think Messi is doing something useful in the Tower and let her be, after Shaidar read her the riot act. Particularly since somebody is rooting out BA.

7. We don't know that everyone on Egwene's list was alive and well, post-raid. Just accounted for, one way or another, including captured in the Raid and long out of the Tower as well as Escaped post raid. Certainly the BA did have some knowledge of Egwene's

purge. And there's something wrong with the logic of those lists, but that's a different matter.

8. Neither here nor there. We know she's sharp and capable of working things out quickly like with the Oath rod puzzle. She would have organised resistance against the Seanchan in pure self-interest regardless of affiliation to GLoD or not.

9.How does this reflect one or other on Saerin?

 

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

6. GLoD has now developed a pattern of punishing the Chosen but leaving them alive if He can see a purpose. He doesn't have people to waste. He was extremely angry with Moggy but didn't kill her. He may think Messi is doing something useful in the Tower and let her be, after Shaidar read her the riot act. Particularly since somebody is rooting out BA.

 

That's exactly the point. It's already an established fact that she's "sowing chaos" in the Tower, and doing it quite well. Which means that she had to have -really- good explanation on top of that to explain why she's directly defying the DO to offset that rage he was in.

 

7. We don't know that everyone on Egwene's list was alive and well, post-raid. Just accounted for, one way or another, including captured in the Raid and long out of the Tower as well as Escaped post raid. Certainly the BA did have some knowledge of Egwene's purge.

 

Actually, you're thinking of the passage immediately after the raid where everyone's accounted for just after the raid. I'm talking about Egwene's musings at the end of TGS.

 

"Each of the Black Ajah members on Verin's list had been seen healthy and alive following the Seanchan attack. But most had escaped before Egwene arrived at the Tower to take her seat. Velina was gone. So were Chai and Birlin. And Alviarin; the Black Hungers hadn't managed to get to her in time. What had tipped them off? Unfortunately, it had probably something to do with Egwene seizing the Black Ajah in the rebel camp."

 

8. Neither here nor there. We know she's sharp and capable of working things out quickly like with the Oath rod puzzle. She would have organised resistance against the Seanchan in pure self-interest regardless of affiliation to GLoD or not.

 

9.How does this reflect one or other on Saerin?

 

They're here to underline the ambiguity of Saerin's actions. Despite being granted a PoV from the characters view, it's open-ended enough that she can be used as a mole. In Pevara's case, tbh, there's the chance that she was snuffed by Alviarin, but the woman had a target on her head from both sides.

 

 

[Sharaman]

6. Yes but this has no bearing on her being Saerin - or not.

7. Admitted - I said as much when I referred to Eg's purge.

 

They're here to underline the ambiguity of Saerin's actions. Despite being granted a PoV from the characters view, it's open-ended enough that she can be used as a mole. In Pevara's case, tbh, there's the chance that she was snuffed by Alviarin, but the woman had a target on her head from both sides.

 

Sorry, it's not very clear what you're trying to say.

Pevara is very much alive when she arrives at the Black Tower. I don't get the "target on her head", "mole" business at all.

Who? What?

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Sorry, it's not very clear what you're trying to say.

Pevara is very much alive when she arrives at the Black Tower. I don't get the "target on her head", "mole" business at all.

Who? What?

 

As of the prologue of KoD, Alviarin is desperate to save her own skin, and Pevara and Yukiri are the only link she has to Talene's disappearance. She speculates on how hard it would be to kidnap either of the two.

 

Pevara is indicated to be missing as of the end of TGS. Maybe my chronology's off, but Pevara's trip to the BT took place at the end of KoD, and she's had more than enough time to return since then.

 

As a Hunter, Pevara is a target, and twice a target for her knowledge of the trip to the BT, which was made in secret.

 

The "mole" (in theory) being Mesaana, first in the BA-H and then within the Tower itself.

[Sharaman]

Sorry, it's not very clear what you're trying to say.

Pevara is very much alive when she arrives at the Black Tower. I don't get the "target on her head", "mole" business at all.

Who? What?

 

As of the prologue of KoD, Alviarin is desperate to save her own skin, and Pevara and Yukiri are the only link she has to Talene's disappearance. She speculates on how hard it would be to kidnap either of the two.

 

Pevara is indicated to be missing as of the end of TGS. Maybe my chronology's off, but Pevara's trip to the BT took place at the end of KoD, and she's had more than enough time to return since then.

 

As a Hunter, Pevara is a target, and twice a target for her knowledge of the trip to the BT, which was made in secret.

 

The "mole" (in theory) being Mesaana, first in the BA-H and then within the Tower itself.

 

Yes, Pevara is "missing" along with every other AS (Salidar/ WT) who has gone to the Black Tower.

Alviarin thought of kidnapping Doesine and Yukiri who she had seen with Talene.

No mention of Pevara in her PoV.

Still don't get the connection with Saerin.