Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[WolfDragonFox]

Where does it say Danelle is not ageless?? I think Danelle and Zemaille are both ageless. Also I don't think Messi would take over a young noice/ initiate's ID - they share rooms with other students and there's too much in the way of physical, social and maybe pillow-contact. Much more sane for her to take over the persona of a loner sister who has been raised to the shawl long enough to acquire agelessness.

 

 

Okay so, It does not outright say that Danelle is ageless but she is described as young purposely and for no real obvious reason on two occasions for sure, and three if i remember correctly.  In fact in the in Ch 47 of TSR RJ totally interrupts the flow of his sentence to throw in that she is young.  And this is from AS point of view, Alviarin if i'm not mistaken, so when they say young, that seems like a solid gold indicator that she is not yet ageless since it takes at least 20 years that we know of to gain the ageless face.

 

"Danelle, on the other hand, the young Brown sister who was supposed to be watching Master Jovarin, the mason, was most likely letting herself be distracted by the books the fellow kept finding for her. That was the only way to explain her failure to question the number of workmen Jovarin claimed to have hired (Siuan, The Shadow Rising, Chapter 47)"

 

And I did not say she did take over an initiate i.d., just that she could have.  Danelle is descriped as having little to no friends and also as dreamy so if she did take over the real Danelle, she would have been easy to replace.

[Sharaman]

I don't think it takes 20 years to achieve agelessness. It takes some time but it's not explicitly stated how long anywhere in the books as far as I can remember. I haven't read BWB so I dunno if its there.

Yes, it says "Danelle the young Brown sister" - but it doesn't say "too new to the shawl to have achieved agelessness" as it does with for example, Beldeine or the other young sisters in LoC who successfully kidnapped RaT.

If you believe Danelle is Messi, it actually helps your case if she is ageless. That would explain why Alviarin couldn't recognise Messi when Superfade stripped the Mask.

 

[Paerish Swar]

I don't think Mesaana could be Zemaille (I once mused over the possibility myself, though) because even though the Sea Folk Aes Sedai keep themselves apart and aloof from other Aes Sedai, all of them work in the tower library and keep rooms on the upper levels.  Being willingly segregated from the Aes Sedai in the tower proper does not mean that they (the Sea Folk Aes Sedai) are segregated from each other, in fact I would think that they would each be extremely close to one another; they would be each others only social contacts and only ties back to their shared Sea Folk heritage (remember that they must each know that their very presence in the White Tower is part of a necessary ruse enacted by their leaders to keep the Aes Sedai from knowing that the Sea Folk train all their own channelers).  Because of this, I would think that it would actually be more difficult for Mesaana to assume the identity of one of the Sea Folk Aes Sedai, since there is probably little chance that she would be able to pretend to such a specific set of individual, social, and cultural circumstances with the other Sea Folk Aes Sedai in the library with her.

 

I was also wondering about the sheer numbers of BA sisters in the tower with Mesaana.  If there are approximately 300 sisters in the White Tower post the split and approximately 70 of the sisters present there are BA, that means that nearly 1 in every 4 sisters in the tower were darkfriends!  Mesaana essentially had direct control over a quarter of Elaida's Tower; for 70 sisters, it was Mesaana's word which was law, whether through a "face" to face command or whether it was passed along through messages through the BA network. 

 

This raises a question for me: who does Mesaana even NEED to be?  She was already the most powerful and infuential person in the tower!  Also, since we have seen from most all of the Forsaken's viewpoints that they severely look down upon anyone who calls themselves Aes Sedai in this age, would Mesaana (who already had a grudge against Aes Sedai from her own age because they deemed her unfit to be a researcher, right?  Wasn't that the whole reason she turned to the shadow?) bring herself to pose as one of them?  Could our frail little Mesaana stomach such an act?

 

I would say that any Aes Sedai who we have seen "on stage" to try and cultivate a little extra power and influence for herself (and specifically JUST for herself) among the Aes Sedai probably is NOT Mesaana, for Mesaana would not need to involve herself in any petty power plays - she was already the Tower's real power player!  I think Danelle falls into this category, since she played such a large part in the overthrow of Siuan and in the initial meetings when Elaida was put on the Amyrlin Seat (remember how a bunch of Sisters would have regular meetings in the Amyrlin's chamber, but as Elaida began trying to increase her own control, she began running many of those same sisters off, like Shemerin, and cowing the rest of the others to the point that all those "group therapy" meetings stopped occuring.  Would Mesaana as Danelle allow herself to be cowed by crazy, crazy Elaida?).  Also, would Mesaana concern herself with the very menial task of overseeing the "hiring" of the "workman" who were to be used to help in the revolt against Siuan, as Danelle was supposedly responsible for?

 

I have to admit that this whole topic is very frustrating for me.  I don't have any idea who I think Mesaana is posing as, but all the other options that have been spoken of seem just too damn easy; so, I find it really difficult to accept them.  I have the distinct feeling that when BS reveals her alter ego that I will be slapping myself in the forehead a few times in rapid succession.

[Auld Manriva]

Agelessness by no means takes 20 years to occur. Moiraine, Siaun, Leanne, Sheriam were all novice's together were they not? They, every one had the ageless look. None had been AS for 20 years in EotW. They were all apprentice's when Rand was born and he was what, 20 or almost at the beginning of this story?

 

Danelle could be Messy in disguise. She wouldn't disdain being an AS in this time if it gave her access to the library I don't think. As for arranging the "workmen", didn't they assist in the Siaun overthrow? Or am I confusing that with Tear?

 

 

[Rocky_Outcrop]

All I can say is that you guys are doing a good job of remembering all their details - right down to eye colour etc.

 

There are very few candidates though, yet hundreds of names that you all can remember. In every book we meet dozens of AS. What sort of evidence exists for outside bets. Let's just assume for a minute that everyone mentioned as the most likely is a red herring.

 

Is there no one that would make you think "Hmm I didn't think it would be her - but now you've said it all the bits fit"

 

(To be fair, that's what I thought when I read Daniell theories. Still, I don't like it. And I don't like the idea that she is a warder or cook, nope.)

[WolfDragonFox]

You are actually correct and I misspoke when saying agelessness takes 20 years at least.  Because I doubt Siuan could have been considered to be raised Amyrlin w/o the ageless face at least, and correct me if i'm wrong but she has been the Amyrlin for 10 years when we see her first right?  so sorry about that.  But the 20 years or so of all three of them being AS is correct because at least Siuan and Moiraine are raised to the shawl in the New Spring novel because I don't think Lan was taken as a warder before she was AS.  This is where my 20 number came from.  Wrong though since Siuan has been Amyrlin for a good bit.

[WolfDragonFox]

I recently went to The Guide to see if I could glean a few more tidbits on anything I could connect to any theory.  BTW I am starting yet another series reread today. Whew.

 

Below are some descriptions taken directly from The Guide about Mesaana.

 

Personality : Hardheaded, practical and intelligent, though often taken for being dreamy because of her introspection. Interested in real power not the appearance of it.

 

Set up schools where the young pupils were taught to do the Dark One's bidding

 

The second bit I put there because hey what better place to teach young people to do the dark ones bidding without them knowing it then teaching a few novice classes...lol but we all of course already know she is in the WT.  But in the recent arguments a page back, I point out the quote of Danelle being dreamy and here in The Guide we see that same description.  Couple that with the fact that here favorite AoL pass time was corrupting youths to the darkside (which admittedly haven't seen Danelle do probably because it would give away who she is, but I bet she is doing it in the WT) Plus all the other shady things she has done including the explicit smirk she gives Siuan when they unseat her and the hiding of soldiers as workers to ambush the Warders on Siuans side, and she wanted so badly to be a researcher but was denied back in AoL so Danelle being brown allows her to access old records and files for research and loopholes in the WT to be exploited. 

 

Like I said before and we mostly as a collective fandom agree on...Danelle = Mesaana.  I'm sure tho that everyone as well as myself still are looking for any other possibilities.

 

  Just thought I'd do a read and share as I go along in these books and glance at The Guide along the way.  More posts on other threads to come but maybe not too soon as I have just started TEotW today and not much to be solved this early in the series...lol

[thewalrus777]

Mesaana herself may not have the ageless look because she is from a different age altogether. In the AoL the Aes Sedai(male and female)live very long lives, more so than those of the Aes Sedai now. Some of those Aes Sedai in the AoL were recorded to live up 700 years or more. No sister in the present RandLand lives for more than 200-250 years with the exception of a select few(Cadsuane and other Kin). I firmly believe that the Oath Rod shortens the life span of an Aes Sedai. I think taking the oaths eventually causes Agelessness, but varies in how long it takes to happen, depending on the person. Anyways, the evidence is there to say Danelle is Mesaana. She fits the description. When Alviarin says she is tantalized about the familiarty of Mesaana's real look, is because when she sees Mesaana in the tower, it is never more than brief meetings in sometimes dark areas. Not a lot of features to be made out sometimes. So if Mesaana resembles Danelle even remotely close, it would jar Alviarin that when the illusion was gone she would somewhat recognize Mesaana versus who she's pretending to be. It would just make sense to me seeing as it's percieved that it's easier to hide ones identity if who you are portraying looks a lot like you.

[Sharaman]

Walrus, you're stating the obvious. No, Messi doesn't have the ageless look, we know that due to her encounter with Shaidar Haran.

Yes, the Oath rod causes ageless look.  In the AoL, the oath rod was used only to bind criminals because it cut lifespans. Some AS, (Egwene for one and Siuan for another) have already figured this out. We know it because it's been said more or less explicitly in the Sammael-Greandal convo and also in Semirhage and Balthamiel's PoVs.

Alviarin had never seen Messi until Shaidar stripped the Mask. Messi always appeared in bizarre disguises. 

Yes, Messi looks familair because she's pretending to be a sister she resembles, who Alvi knows. But she is disguising herself as ageless. Again, we know from the responses to Suian, that when agelessness is removed, it's not so easy to recognise the person even if you know them quite quite well.

 

[WolfDragonFox]

I told you Walrus in the ToM speculation thread that you really gotta be informed and stop stating the obvious or everyone on here is gonna get on you hard.  Just like Sharaman says above, all you have said there is long and well known. 

[Vulgir]

I actually agree with WolfDragonFox on this, someone check if hell is frozen over.

[WolfDragonFox]

I actually agree with WolfDragonFox on this, someone check if hell is frozen over.

 

lol read the one I posted to him in ToM speculation, I was clearly talking about what you and I went through a couple weeks back or so...unless you are talking about the Mesaana post above...either way i'm sure hell is nice this time of year, brisk rather than frozen...hahahah.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

WDF- you are clearly a big hearted guy and its nice to see someone looking out for other people on an internet forum - places like this are normally havens for the insecure and vitriolic.

 

Don't take too much on your own shoulders, pat on the back for you though.

[Loganeich]

eeeeeeeeny ways...

 

Whats to say that Mesaana isn't masquerading as a servant? aren't all the AS in the tower documented, aren't all the AS EVERYWHERE documented?

 

It would be easy for a Forsaken to kill an AS, and take her place, but wouldn't it also be easier for her to mask her ability to channel, and simply pretend to be a servant?

Plus servants in the White Tower don't have it all bad, what with novices doing chores for punishment, so whats wrong with Mesaana bending her neck slightly to take water to some obscure part of the tower, or wait on an AS. It would also make gleaning information a lot easier, because people are more likely to be more secretive around another AS than around an ignorant servant.

 

I know some pages back this possibility was stamped out, but not with any very firm evidence beyond "forsaken wouldn't bend themselves to servant work"(not an exact quote, but idc), with no other spectualtion on the subject.

 

 

There's my 2 pennies.

[WolfDragonFox]

Well Loganeich it actually isn't beyond a forsaken to do servant work since Moggy posed as a servant in Tanchico.  But read Mesaana's profile in the guide and there it states (paraprased) she prefers real power to the semblance of power. (not exact wording but along those lines)

 

Anyway no worries i'm not taking too much on my shoulders Rocky Outcrop, just gonna do that same post every now and again if I see a new person post something that might get him anally word raped..lol 

[WolfDragonFox]

Everyone on here must watch this video that Dragonmount posted on their Twitter account.  As a film professional I can tell you this is great quality but there are some strangeties in the way they did the questioning...but that isn't really a big issue that will turn you off of it, just a professional observation that distracted me personally.  Anyway I only subscribe to DM's twitter account because every now and again you actually get something good or useful, most other times its useless non WoT related spouts.  Anyway here is the link to the video.

 

http://mythmakersfilm.com/sanderson/SANDERSON_FINAL.mov 

 

It is information for the most part that you probably have read somewhere before but it is nice to see in a short TGS signing documentary.

[Morsmordre]

eeeeeeeeny ways...

 

Whats to say that Mesaana isn't masquerading as a servant? aren't all the AS in the tower documented, aren't all the AS EVERYWHERE documented?

 

It would be easy for a Forsaken to kill an AS, and take her place, but wouldn't it also be easier for her to mask her ability to channel, and simply pretend to be a servant?

Plus servants in the White Tower don't have it all bad, what with novices doing chores for punishment, so whats wrong with Mesaana bending her neck slightly to take water to some obscure part of the tower, or wait on an AS. It would also make gleaning information a lot easier, because people are more likely to be more secretive around another AS than around an ignorant servant.

 

I know some pages back this possibility was stamped out, but not with any very firm evidence beyond "forsaken wouldn't bend themselves to servant work"(not an exact quote, but idc), with no other spectualtion on the subject.

 

 

There's my 2 pennies.

 

Nah, I'm late :) This was my theory in the first place! Actually, that's exactly what I think - that Messaana could be either a servant, or a novice. Egweene states this multiple times - the novices and the servants are the only people in the Tower who could walk freely and undisturbed. Besides, some people said it earlier that it would be difficult to present the exact amount of power that a Sister has (in order to show herself as the Sister), as it would be difficult to imitate the particular Sister in any other manner. Remember, every description of a character in the books is followed by a hint on their habits. It's impossible for anyone to anticipate every single habit... Even for the Forsaken! It's much easier to go to the WT as a novice, show some potential to be trained but not so much that would make her center of attention. Besides, not every novice is punished. Sharina is a clear example of that. I don't remember Sharina being sent for penance since she came up in the series. On the other hand, there is Compulsion. If Messaana gets caught doing what she isn't supposed to be doing, she could easily force the Sister that caught her to forget... I think we should look back in the books and search for new novices. If there are such indicated, I think that we would have found Messaana.

[Sharaman]

The hassle with being a servant: Messi might need to use mass compulsion if she's asked to do some work at a moment when she actually needs to be in Shadar Logoth, or meeting up with another Chosen. She would probably want to use compulsion as little as possible.

The hassle with being a novice/accepted: Novices share dorm rooms with other novices so she may not have privacy (this could be an issue with posing as a servant as well). Somebody may notice she's not in bed and asleep when she's supposed to be.

Novices are always being made to channel under supervision as training. She would have to calibrate her power very carefully not to make AS notice she was an awesomely powerful channeler. She may also give herself away simply by knowing more than any novice.

The reasons why we suspect she isn't either a servant  or Novice/ Accepted: She wears coloured silk dresses. Servants don't wear silk; novices/ accepted don't wear colour.

She seems to be in an ageless disguise: When Alvi sees her stripped of her disguise, she is vaguely familiar in the same way that Leane and Siuan were vaguely familiar when they lost their ageless look.

 

[Sab]

I would think Mesaana posing as a novice or servant would increase he chanace of being found since with all the people around she would risk being caught channeling.  As an Aes Sedai should could linger in places, etc.. and no one would say anything to her.  Not to mention since she needs Alvinia to keep her informed on what happening shows she doesn't have free access around the tower like a servant or novice would have.

[WolfDragonFox]

The reasons why we suspect she isn't either a servant  or Novice/ Accepted: She wears coloured silk dresses. Servants don't wear silk; novices/ accepted don't wear colour.    

 

This is a good point and exactly why I don't think she is a servant and is hiding as Danelle the Brown AS although the the other part of my reasoning is from her proile in the guide of wanting actual power not a semblance of power, Servants have no power.  It seems to me that there is an overwhelming balance of forsaken that enjoy different things.  

 

4 of 13 don't mind playing servants of some kind, these being Mogedien as a servant in Tanchico, Balthemel/Aran'gar as Halima as a servant in the rebel AS camp, Aginor/Osan'gar as Dashiva as an Asha'man, not a servant but still took orders so not a leader, and Semirhage as Anath, once again not quite a servant but not a direct ruler either as she is truthspeaker for Tuon.

 

2 of 13 that being Lanfear as Salene, and Asmodean as Jasin  just like to roam around doing her own thing. Neither really posted any ruling point that we can see at least in this age.

 

This leaves 3 that like to have an established rule under their thumbs.  That gives us Rhavin-Caemlyn, Sammael-Illian, and Be'lal-Tear

 

3 of 13 are holed up.  Graendal is in Arad Doman in her fort, she does influence the country but does not hold the king/queen post.  Ishamael/Moridin has always projected his world influence from some tower or fort he occupies, though it seems there is no one to rule here as he doesn't have time to worry about ruling a certain people when he is so busy being Nae'blis and trying to get the 3 ta'varen boys. And Mesaana in the WT who by her profile likes actual power of a sort so she is hiding as an AS not a servant in all likelyhood.  She took rule over the BA faction of the  WT and used them to manipulate things while she sat back and watched.

 

1 of 13 belongs to one of these groups or all of them as seems likely with Demandred, it just hasn't been figured out who he is or what he has exactly been doing.

 

There is a nice balance between them all on who is willing to do what to influence others and its all traced back to personality traits of some kind that can be found in The Guide.

 

She seems to be in an ageless disguise: When Alvi sees her stripped of her disguise, she is vaguely familiar in the same way that Leane and Siuan were vaguely familiar when they lost their ageless look.

 

This is not necessarily the case, as we know that no matter what the face she is using actually is, it is most certainly  the Mask of Mirrors, and like I posted earlier in the thread, we haven't seen anyone use it for an ageless face(not that it can't be) but rather they contort to a different face that is close with the contours of their real face.  This to me is the more likely and yes it lends to more suspects.  I have already made my case for Danelle so i won't go back in depth on that but since Danelle usually only comes up in a scene around Alviarin, and she's done so much shady seeming things, plus you have the fact that she is easily disregarded by others because she is "dreamy" (in this context that means her mind seems to wander not that she's cute or anything) and "young" which seems to indicate not yet ageless she would be familiar to Alviarin if the MoM is stripped away.  (BTW dreamy is how she is described in The Guide like i keep pointing out not to mention the big blue eyes that both share as a trait) The Guide says she frequently "disguises" not "hides" her ability to channel, which means getting her power to an AS level from Forsaken is no problem for her.  BS said it is possible to get around the oaths so that is not an obstacle.

 

And Leane and Siuan were actually not considered familiar when their agelessness is stripped away.  They don't even recognize their own faces at all as those they had before gaining the ageless face.  Their faces completely changed, the only familiar things about them were the eyes and voices which stayed the same.

 

[Bobbun]

This is a good point and exactly why I don't think she is a servant and is hiding as Danelle the Brown AS although the the other part of my reasoning is from her proile in the guide of wanting actual power not a semblance of power, Servants have no power.

 

It has been said that she was always interested in real power, not the appearance of it.  Appearances were never important to her.

 

Not to argue against the specifics of any of the points you've made, WolfDragonFox, but I think you're misinterpreting this description of Mesaana.  It doesn't preclude her playing the role of a servant.  It's certainly true that real servants don't have power, but if Mesaana was playing the role of a servant while still controlling things from behind the scenes, she would fit the description you've given exactly:  She would have actual power, but not the semblance of it.

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Not to argue against the specifics of any of the points you've made, WolfDragonFox, but I think you're misinterpreting this description of Mesaana.  It doesn't preclude her playing the role of a servant.  It's certainly true that real servants don't have power, but if Mesaana was playing the role of a servant while still controlling things from behind the scenes, she would fit the description you've given exactly:  She would have actual power, but not the semblance of it.

 

I'll agree it doesn't rule it out at all, that is a good point but the physical descriptions and personality trait parallels between Mesaana and Danelle art exact matching and once again Danelle is part of some shady stuff like disguising the soldiers as workmen so they could ambush the warders that tried to free and protect Siuan, and she is part of the AS party that strip her of the stole and she gives that smirk to Siuan.  The evidence is way too great to be a red herring IMO and too much for me to ever bail off that train until we find out the truth.

[lordofsoup]

im suprised she wasnt caught by egwene and all the other aes sedai.  Egwene could easily have gotten them, or could get them all to swear that they are not mesaana.  or does this mean that mesaana had to take the three oaths if she is still in the tower?

[Sharaman]

Well, if she believes it, Messi could easily say "I am not a Darkfriend" even "I am not a Forsaken". She's not lying - by her definition she is a Chosen. If she's a not a paid up member, it's no problem saying "I am not Black Ajah".

Now if the statement went "I am As Sedai and I've never sworn allegiance to the Great Lord of the dark", she might have a problem.

Egwene does wonder if Messi has managed to defeat the Oath Rod. Brandon confirms that Egwene "is not wrong" in one of his Q&As.

So she probably did take the three oaths and then weasel her way through. Of course, she may be one of those who fled or disappeared after the Seanchan raid.

 

 

[lordofsoup]

ya, but if she took the three oaths, she would have the affects of it, giving her the agelessness.  even if she did remove the oaths from her later, she could still have the ageless face