Graendal (Full Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

Assume as RaT did, that Graendal would have a chat with the Oaf Ramshalam (OR) after applying Compulsion and pull a verbatim description of the conversation Rat had with OR. She would know that he had opened a Gateway and sent the OR to her, promising to hold the Gate open till OR returned to RaT.

She may not realise that RaT is in the company of a female who can id compulsion via Saidar. In any case, she would have to use compulsion, to thoroughly interrogate the OR. She would also assume that RaT would assume compulsion was being used.

In the circs, she might as well send OR back with some additional instructions, "Creep up on RaT and say "Boo"" or something a tad nastier perhaps.

Would she expect RaT to instantaneously balefire an entire castle?

Probably not because LTT doesn't have a prior record for this sort of enthusiasm.

That is what RaT is banking on. 

RaT's experiment proves pretty conclusively that the person who Compelled OR is dead. Nyn would have picked up residue of weaves dissipating, (read TPoD Avi's justification for picking apart a Gate to understand why) and Nyn's ter'angreal would pick up an anti-compulsion weave even if it was inverted. So the person who laid Compulsion on OR is dead by BF.

 

So if Graen is to double-bluff and her actions are to be consistent with what happens, here's one scenario where she's alive

1)OR lands up at castle

2) OR is Compelled by Graen and spills beans

3) Graen figures stuff out

4) She removes the compulsion she's laid on

5) Calls in a pet Saidar channeler 

6) Gets the said Saidar channeler to weave second dose of Compulsion on OR

7) Sings " So Long, its been good to know you" and Travels

8) Saidar channeller is balefired and Compulsion disappears

 

Another scenario

As above but Graen works totally thru proxy Saidar Channeler (OR is only compelled once by a Graen slave)

 

Third Scenario

Graen Travels and balefires her pet saidar channeler because she is too paranoid to leave a pet that knows Compulsion alive,

Hence, the compulsion disappears but Graen is still alive.

 

Your call on whether she's sharp enough and paranoid enough to do any of this.

My take is she's probably dead, just as Sammael is almost certainly dead,

Note we haven't seen Sammy go, just a bank of Mashadar and a negative inference that Rand didn't feel a Gateway opening (he might not, if Sam inverted or he already had tied off the weaves and prepared a Gate). So Graen disappearing isn't that out of character.

 

[Mr Ares]

Does anybody know why Graendal went to Shayol Ghul, and had been all but promised the position of Nae’blis?

No. Well, probably Brandon, Harriet, and so on. Not us, though. We have to make do with guesses. Her killing Asmo is a popular theory.

I was under the impression that the Dark One probably called all of the Forsaken that were alive at that time and promised to make them Nae'blis to try and keep them in line.  Of the forsakens that weren't killed off, we saw two betray the DO to become Rand's teacher and Elayne/Egwyne/Nynaeve's teacher, and saw another one plotting to join with Rand to overthrow the DO, and then tried to kill Rand prematurely because she found out that he had slept with someone else.  I figured that the DO probably called all the rest of the Forsakens to Shayol Ghul to tell them "Don't screw up and do what I tell you, and I'll make you Nae'blis.  Demandred's was just the only one we saw on camera, and Graendal's was mentioned afterwards by her, and before we had the chance to see the others imply that they had their visits, Moridin had shown up and become Nae'blis for real.

That's been put forward as well. Nothing to indicate it, really. After all, noneof the others think back about this meeting, and Shai'tan does really need to do things that way - He could just remind them of the price of betrayal, for example. Promising them something and then not giving it, giving the position to someone who wasn't around, just seems like a way to annoy them. Possible, but I don't think it's likely.

 

Now if in the next book it is mentioned that Grendal is dead by one of the 3 people (Morridin, Shadar Haran, Dark one) Then it would be confirmed. Until it is confirmed I consider it to be another misleading death for the fans to speculate about, but more directly another "Sammuel" incident where Rand thinks another forsaken dead mistakingly.

Except he wasn't mistaken about Sammael - he really died. RJ confirmed it.

 

Isn't Sammael alive? Wasn't it him that is in command of a ghoalm, and sent the army of 100,000 trollics to his hideout when him and logain killed most of them?

Sammael was in command of the Gholam, and brought it to Ebou Dar. Since his death, the Gholam has been a free agent. It's hunting mat on its own initiative. As for who sent the Trolloc army to Lord Algarin's manor, we are told that it was Sammael, or someone posing as him. But given that RJ and BS have confirmed his death, and that he won't be back, it cannot have been Sammael. The most popular theory is Taim, who has possibly been raised to the Chosen. Of course, there's not exactly a huge amount of evidence for anyone.

 

Besides, should couldn't just "release" a weave of compulsion at a distance and at her choosing.  First off, compulsion is a heavily complicated and intricate weave hooking onto the smallest parts of our brain.  Key word as Nyneave described it, *hooks*...which means, not being removed easily.  Secondly, although the boy Nyneave healed had heavy compulsion, it was horribly long and difficult to remove it.  There is nothing leading us to believe a compulsion weave can be made to work as well and not be as difficult to remove...hence, having it primed to be released.  Thirdly, the only way she could have *released* the weave is if she was actively holding it and standing next to the guy at the time of release.  Otherwise, a weave tha was knotted to fade out would have been easily noticed by Nyneave, especially since the basic compulsion itself would have to be different.

Indeed. I've always found that theory to be rather weak. If she survived, more likely it was because she wasn't there, the Compulsion was done by someone else. One little fact that did interest me when I first saw this theory was her palace was better known earlier in the series than it was in this book. So either there was a cock up, or she changed palaces, or that wasn't Graendal's lair that got balefired. Someone else put the Compulsion on, someone else died.

 

Note we haven't seen Sammy go, just a bank of Mashadar and a negative inference that Rand didn't feel a Gateway opening (he might not, if Sam inverted or he already had tied off the weaves and prepared a Gate). So Graen disappearing isn't that out of character.

Aside from the aforementioned confirmation from RJ, it has been debated whether or not inverting or reversing weaves hides the sensation of actively Channeling. For example, when Moggy is released from captivity, she concludes that her rescuer is channeling saidin because she doesn't feel anything. Inverting and reversing mean you don't see the weave, not that you don't feel it. Rand is also aware of these things, and also notes that Sammael didn't have time to get away. Sammael's survival was only up for debate because we have been conditioned to accept that people in works of fiction aren't dead if we don't see the body (and sometimes even if we do). In this case, RJ simply intended for that to be the end of Sammael.

[Jemlin]

I believe she is dead because of the way the storyline was going at that point, i.e. it emphasized how hard Rand had become that he BF'd a woman and her entire mansion with hardly a second thought. This was such a low point for Rand's sanity and to have Graendal still alive undermines the whole scene somewhat. BS has said her name will crop up in the next book (note: he said her name would crop up, he didn't say Graendal the character would appear - though this could just be semantics). I think Moridin, perhaps, will confirm to the other Forsaken that Graendal is dead, and maybe mention at the same time that she offed Asmo.

 

The way the storyline was going, perhaps that would be a conclusion. I think the way Rand was hyping her up to be much smarter and more clever than himself leads me to a different conclusion. When playing a game of chess, and you know you will lose, punching your opponent in the face would not work if your opponent expects it. Sending one man a lord to her, with out any escort whatsoever would put her suspicions up. He expected a tiny amount of compulsion and she gave him a lot. (which proves she didn't care if he found out she was there)  So she fled immediately, probably to a surrounding area to see what happens.

 

When he struck the castle with balfire she released the weave of compulsion. You cannot believe her to be dead with never a mention of her death, nor a corpse. Every other important character who died, was definitely dead. This isn't some joke, where she "has" to be dead, especially since she was hyped up for her cleverness only a few moments before she apparently died. Foreshadowing.

 

Now if in the next book it is mentioned that Grendal is dead by one of the 3 people (Morridin, Shadar Haran, Dark one) Then it would be confirmed. Until it is confirmed I consider it to be another misleading death for the fans to speculate about, but more directly another "Sammuel" incident where Rand thinks another forsaken dead mistakingly.

 

She

Is

Dead

 

Besides, should couldn't just "release" a weave of compulsion at a distance and at her choosing.  First off, compulsion is a heavily complicated and intricate weave hooking onto the smallest parts of our brain.  Key word as Nyneave described it, *hooks*...which means, not being removed easily.  Secondly, although the boy Nyneave healed had heavy compulsion, it was horribly long and difficult to remove it.  There is nothing leading us to believe a compulsion weave can be made to work as well and not be as difficult to remove...hence, having it primed to be released.  Thirdly, the only way she could have *released* the weave is if she was actively holding it and standing next to the guy at the time of release.  Otherwise, a weave tha was knotted to fade out would have been easily noticed by Nyneave, especially since the basic compulsion itself would have to be different.

 

I'm sorry, but that explanation of how she could still be alive doesn't hold up.

 

Try again.

 

 

Well, Graendal knows more about compulsion than anyone, and if there was a way to release it from a distance, she would be the one to know how.  And unless one of us has real life day to day experience using the power, then none of us really have any way to definitively say that she couldn't do something.  They can't make themselves fly, and they can't bring the dead back to life.  Those are about the only two things that it's been explicitly said "can't be done."

 

I personally think she's dead, just because we're at the point in the series that loose ends need to start being tied up in haste.  I'm just saying that if there -was- a way to juryrig the compulsion to fade away when she wanted it, Graendal would likely be the one to know it.

 

The problem is, where-as yes, Graendal had the best knowledge of Compulsion, there is not a single show of any weave being able to be actively released at a distance at will.  Not a single that I can think of, unless someone can display it.  The Mechanics of it seem to be way out of bounds to even the fantastical knowledge of the OP's use that we have seen.

 

The closest we have seen is a weave tied so that it will be released over time, as the knot comes undone.  Like I mentioned before, even if this had been an inverted knot (though not sure if an inverted knot can be tied to a non-inverted weave), it would have been visibly different to Nynaeve when she examined the fellow.  We have also not been given any hints or examples of compulsion being removed except by means of healing, or the strong-will of the individual.

 

[StefanR]

We don't have any definitive proof that it was Graendal that was in the building Rand balefired.

 

There are other people who know compulsion...

[Worm]

I'm sorry if I'm being dense but why do people assume that Graendal couldn't have just been holding the weave? There has never been any indication that she suffers from the common AS problem of needing to be able to see the weaves to hold something open. 

That said I'm fairly sure she is dead.

[Jemlin]

I'm sorry if I'm being dense but why do people assume that Graendal couldn't have just been holding the weave? There has never been any indication that she suffers from the common AS problem of needing to be able to see the weaves to hold something open. 

That said I'm fairly sure she is dead.

 

See my above posts. It would have been EXTREMELY obvious to see a weave being held...as a held weave is still attached to the person weaving it.

 

 

[Sab]

First Graendal would have no reason to suspect Rand would try to kill her, since most the Forsaken probably assume he won't kill a woman. 

 

Secondly if you just escaped a possibly insane guy balefiring your entire castle with the most powerful object around I think you would portal fast and be gone.  Not hang out and have the thought ok now to release my compulsion so folks think i'm dead.  Its doubtful she would give Rand the credit for coming up with that plan to determine if she was dead. 

 

And finally if she thought he was on way to kill her its doubtful she would of suspected her entire fort getting balefired.  There was no reason for her think she didn't have time to prepare a trap for when he came.

[Alternate34]

She couldn't have been holding the weave and then released it.  People have mentioned many reasons why and here is one more.  A Compulsion weave that powerful would have destroyed Doofus' mind if it was merely taken away.  We know this because Graendal herself mentions it in her thoughts at some point.  She doesn't use heavy Compulsion sometimes because it leaves people as quivering masses.  Even if she held the Compulsion weave without tying it off, it would effect the brain the same way.  The fact that Doofus is not a babbling sponge after the balefire and the weave just disappears indicates that the balefire caused the dissapation.  That still leaves open the option that someone else made the weave, but Graendal couldn't be holding it.

[Paerish Swar]

CRAZY THEORY HERE!

 

In tGS when Rand BFs Graendal's lair, here's the quote about what happened to the pattern as a result: "Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them . . . seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony."

 

Here's a quote from KoD from Faile's POV when she's walking through Malden:  "She had just reached Therava's arrival with Galina when everything in front of her eyes rippled.  She rippled! . . . Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before . . . A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist."

 

I had always assumed that the experience in Malden was the effects of a bubble of evil.  What if this was actually the effect of the pattern righting itself in response to the Balefiring of Graendal!

 

I know this theory is kind of weak because if the effects of the "damage" on the pattern itself went back that far, wouldn't we see similar ripples from more character's POVs?  But, I think there may be a case for it.

 

- The narration of the two events are very similar. 

- Min notices one giant wave (being closer in time and space to the moment of "impact" itself - like a big splash), and Faile notices three smaller, though just as frightening, ripples (being further away in time and space from the moment of impact - like actual ripples out on a pond). 

- The incident with Faile & company occurred between 2 and 3 months before Rand's Balefire overkill incident, which I think could be a reasonable amount of time to assume the Balefire could have burnt back to (Rand later comments that he only used a fraction of what he could through the CK to do the deed to Graendal). 

- Also, we know that Graendal had contact with the Shaido at least twice with Sammael; who is to say that she didn't choose to continue pulling a few string there after Sammael went AWOL (we know she loves to dabble her fingers into others plans, especially Sammael's).  If she maintained some influence in the Shaido camp, this could definitely warrant a few major ripples.

 

Comments on my crazy theory?

 

(Oh yeah, for those of you who think Graendal isn't dead, I realize this theory assumes that she actually IS dead, and that the ripples in Malden are a verification of that.  I totally understand that this theory is a little out there!) 

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Personally, I like your theory. I don't know if a couple of months, going by what people say about the exponential effort required to wipe a lot of time out of the pattern with BF, is possible. I am also always confused by the timings in the books and it makes me groan in agony when I try to figure it out.

 

I don't buy it though as I think that there was enough crazy stuff, for instance the crazy thunderclaps at the start, to put this very unusual event into the "just another daily thing" category.

 

I like what you say though and I would be delighted to learn its right.

 

 

[Crael123]

CRAZY THEORY HERE!

 

In tGS when Rand BFs Graendal's lair, here's the quote about what happened to the pattern as a result: "Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them . . . seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony."

 

Here's a quote from KoD from Faile's POV when she's walking through Malden:  "She had just reached Therava's arrival with Galina when everything in front of her eyes rippled.  She rippled! . . . Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before . . . A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist."

 

I had always assumed that the experience in Malden was the effects of a bubble of evil.  What if this was actually the effect of the pattern righting itself in response to the Balefiring of Graendal!

 

I know this theory is kind of weak because if the effects of the "damage" on the pattern itself went back that far, wouldn't we see similar ripples from more character's POVs?  But, I think there may be a case for it.

 

- The narration of the two events are very similar. 

- Min notices one giant wave (being closer in time and space to the moment of "impact" itself - like a big splash), and Faile notices three smaller, though just as frightening, ripples (being further away in time and space from the moment of impact - like actual ripples out on a pond). 

- The incident with Faile & company occurred between 2 and 3 months before Rand's Balefire overkill incident, which I think could be a reasonable amount of time to assume the Balefire could have burnt back to (Rand later comments that he only used a fraction of what he could through the CK to do the deed to Graendal). 

- Also, we know that Graendal had contact with the Shaido at least twice with Sammael; who is to say that she didn't choose to continue pulling a few string there after Sammael went AWOL (we know she loves to dabble her fingers into others plans, especially Sammael's).  If she maintained some influence in the Shaido camp, this could definitely warrant a few major ripples.

 

Comments on my crazy theory?

 

(Oh yeah, for those of you who think Graendal isn't dead, I realize this theory assumes that she actually IS dead, and that the ripples in Malden are a verification of that.  I totally understand that this theory is a little out there!)   

 

dude. that is incredible. wow. cant believe i didnt think of that. that is prolly what it is. makes alota sense

[EsseQuamVideri7]

I say Graendal is dead.

 

One thing I have always loved about this series is we do not always get "what would be the coolest" (although it has its fair share of that) but what, ultimately, has a more real feel.

 

I think Semirhage's death falls under this category as well as Sammael's. Rolan's quick death to Perrin's hammer is another strong example.

 

We as readers often feel like there should have been more from these characters before their untimely, and often unfulfilling, demises. These characters are have so much depth that they mean something to us and we don't like to see their meaningless deaths. I think Graendal's permanent departure is par for the course.

 

I admit when I read that scene I wondered if Graendal might have somehow smelled the trap, faked the compulsion, and escaped. She is a Forsaken and yet we are taking Nynaeve's word that there was a strong compulsion in place. I thought long and hard on it but have come to the conclusion that the scene fits with RJ's style.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Best bit of the book so far. Rands plan fit Rand so well. Simple, effective with no side effect on Ramshalan, yet extremely ruthless, and dark. Wow.

 

The theory of the KOD ripple is a very interesting one. I hope we get a clearup on this; I think balefires danger has been built up for long enough, and it does give us the feel of a loosening of the Pattern, so its as valid a theory as any I'd say. I think everyones been waiting for a Forsaken to be balefired with noticeable consequences.

[Moridiin]

Not sure if this goes in this thread ( I'm more of  a lurker on these boards than a liberal poster) but here goes anyway.  All these people that have been balefired out of the pattern so they never existed, is it possible that the pattern will throw them out again at a later date as "newborns"?  Hence people like the fallen chosen returning at a later time and date, maybe the next age?  for The Wheel of Time to turn anew?

 

Also if someone is burned out of existence shouldn't they be forgotten by people otherwise i think if they are not ( all of the chosen are remembered after their demise) then the above comes into play and they can possibly be born anew.  I just feel if they are balefired they should be forgotten completely for the effects of balefire to make sense otherwise its a flawed process.

 

Just a musing I had  :) will disappear for a few years again now lol

[Sharaman]

Balefired folks are reborn eventually since the soul is not destroyed. But GLoD can't grab the threads out of the Pattern and manipulate them into being born/ resurrected immediately.

That's the party line for WoT.

Anything that involves time paradoxes in any kind of speculative fiction always throws up recursive narrative issues like killing your own ancestor.

 

[Agitel]

It's easier for the Dark Lord to resurrect people if he can nab their souls very soon after their death. The longer he waits, the more difficult it is. Since balefire would kill his Chosen before he knew they were dead, they technically are dead too long for him to be able to bring them back.

 

And as was said, balefired souls will still be reborn.

[Flamingskulls]

CRAZY THEORY HERE!

 

In tGS when Rand BFs Graendal's lair, here's the quote about what happened to the pattern as a result: "Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them . . . seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony."

 

Here's a quote from KoD from Faile's POV when she's walking through Malden:  "She had just reached Therava's arrival with Galina when everything in front of her eyes rippled.  She rippled! . . . Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before . . . A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist."

 

I had always assumed that the experience in Malden was the effects of a bubble of evil.  What if this was actually the effect of the pattern righting itself in response to the Balefiring of Graendal!

 

I know this theory is kind of weak because if the effects of the "damage" on the pattern itself went back that far, wouldn't we see similar ripples from more character's POVs?  But, I think there may be a case for it.

 

- The narration of the two events are very similar. 

- Min notices one giant wave (being closer in time and space to the moment of "impact" itself - like a big splash), and Faile notices three smaller, though just as frightening, ripples (being further away in time and space from the moment of impact - like actual ripples out on a pond). 

- The incident with Faile & company occurred between 2 and 3 months before Rand's Balefire overkill incident, which I think could be a reasonable amount of time to assume the Balefire could have burnt back to (Rand later comments that he only used a fraction of what he could through the CK to do the deed to Graendal). 

- Also, we know that Graendal had contact with the Shaido at least twice with Sammael; who is to say that she didn't choose to continue pulling a few string there after Sammael went AWOL (we know she loves to dabble her fingers into others plans, especially Sammael's).  If she maintained some influence in the Shaido camp, this could definitely warrant a few major ripples.

 

Comments on my crazy theory?

 

(Oh yeah, for those of you who think Graendal isn't dead, I realize this theory assumes that she actually IS dead, and that the ripples in Malden are a verification of that.  I totally understand that this theory is a little out there!)   

 

Maybe the time of the bubbles is not necessarily related to the time of the balefire. If you imagine the pattern as a fabric sheet and balefire as something tearing through it. Another way would be like if the pattern was the surface of the pond and balefire was a rock thrown into it. The balefire could create "waves" in the pattern and sometimes these waves would join together forming the bubbles of evil.

[Anoxanmore]

CRAZY THEORY HERE!

 

In tGS when Rand BFs Graendal's lair, here's the quote about what happened to the pattern as a result: "Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them . . . seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony."

 

Here's a quote from KoD from Faile's POV when she's walking through Malden:  "She had just reached Therava's arrival with Galina when everything in front of her eyes rippled.  She rippled! . . . Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before . . . A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist."

 

I had always assumed that the experience in Malden was the effects of a bubble of evil.  What if this was actually the effect of the pattern righting itself in response to the Balefiring of Graendal!

 

I know this theory is kind of weak because if the effects of the "damage" on the pattern itself went back that far, wouldn't we see similar ripples from more character's POVs?  But, I think there may be a case for it.

 

- The narration of the two events are very similar. 

- Min notices one giant wave (being closer in time and space to the moment of "impact" itself - like a big splash), and Faile notices three smaller, though just as frightening, ripples (being further away in time and space from the moment of impact - like actual ripples out on a pond). 

- The incident with Faile & company occurred between 2 and 3 months before Rand's Balefire overkill incident, which I think could be a reasonable amount of time to assume the Balefire could have burnt back to (Rand later comments that he only used a fraction of what he could through the CK to do the deed to Graendal). 

- Also, we know that Graendal had contact with the Shaido at least twice with Sammael; who is to say that she didn't choose to continue pulling a few string there after Sammael went AWOL (we know she loves to dabble her fingers into others plans, especially Sammael's).  If she maintained some influence in the Shaido camp, this could definitely warrant a few major ripples.

 

Comments on my crazy theory?

 

(Oh yeah, for those of you who think Graendal isn't dead, I realize this theory assumes that she actually IS dead, and that the ripples in Malden are a verification of that.  I totally understand that this theory is a little out there!)   

 

That isn't crazy, its quite plausible, and I'll tweak it just a bit and let me know.

 

Instead of balefiring back 2-3 months (which isn't possible according to BS/RJ/Maria), perhaps is just the ripple of the pattern trying to correct itself.  So instead of Grandael being burned out for a full 2-3 months we are just seeing the effects of the Pattern trying to correct itself to fix the actions and it has to go back that far assuming Grendael was burned back 1 day or whatever, not to mention the hundreds of people in said castle.

 

Thoughts on the adjustment?

[Morsmordre]

Moiraine says in FoH that she could balefire only a couple of hours from the Pattern. She says that Rand is stronger. Much stronger. Rand himself feels that he could unravel the Pattern only with Calandor. Let's think of it that way:

He channels only a small amount of power to destroy the Darkhounds when he saved Matt in FoH. This small amount erased about two minutes from the Pattern. The power that Rand used to destroy Graendal was surely more than a hundred times greater. Are you sure this means he cannot erase two months of the Pattern with that Power O.o I'm not convinced but if you could show me where BS and RJ had said that it is actually impossible to erase such a great amount of time of the Pattern, I would be very grateful.

 

I like the theory. But I doubt it. I think it's just a coincidence that the descriptions match. Besides, Faile isn't the only one who feels what she felt when the bubble appeared.

 

No matter what amount of time Rand brought back with balefire, I wonder if we're going to see some things that are undone. For example, Graendal may have not killed the King but she may have sent him somewhere else. If she does not exist anymore, perhaps he might actually be saved.

[somathus]

CRAZY THEORY HERE!

 

In tGS when Rand BFs Graendal's lair, here's the quote about what happened to the pattern as a result: "Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them . . . seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony."

 

Here's a quote from KoD from Faile's POV when she's walking through Malden:  "She had just reached Therava's arrival with Galina when everything in front of her eyes rippled.  She rippled! . . . Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before . . . A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist."

 

I had always assumed that the experience in Malden was the effects of a bubble of evil.  What if this was actually the effect of the pattern righting itself in response to the Balefiring of Graendal!

 

I know this theory is kind of weak because if the effects of the "damage" on the pattern itself went back that far, wouldn't we see similar ripples from more character's POVs?  But, I think there may be a case for it.

 

- The narration of the two events are very similar. 

- Min notices one giant wave (being closer in time and space to the moment of "impact" itself - like a big splash), and Faile notices three smaller, though just as frightening, ripples (being further away in time and space from the moment of impact - like actual ripples out on a pond). 

- The incident with Faile & company occurred between 2 and 3 months before Rand's Balefire overkill incident, which I think could be a reasonable amount of time to assume the Balefire could have burnt back to (Rand later comments that he only used a fraction of what he could through the CK to do the deed to Graendal). 

- Also, we know that Graendal had contact with the Shaido at least twice with Sammael; who is to say that she didn't choose to continue pulling a few string there after Sammael went AWOL (we know she loves to dabble her fingers into others plans, especially Sammael's).  If she maintained some influence in the Shaido camp, this could definitely warrant a few major ripples.

 

Comments on my crazy theory?

 

(Oh yeah, for those of you who think Graendal isn't dead, I realize this theory assumes that she actually IS dead, and that the ripples in Malden are a verification of that.  I totally understand that this theory is a little out there!)   

That is actually a very good theory.  Nice work.

 

I wonder if this could be the Big Unnoticed Thing that BS has talked about and is the subject of another thread

[WolfTwins]

Balefired folks are reborn eventually since the soul is not destroyed. But GLoD can't grab the threads out of the Pattern and manipulate them into being born/ resurrected immediately.

It could be a big Pattern joke or punisment if Graendal will be reborn as one of Avi's 'odd babies'!

[Anoxanmore]

Moiraine says in FoH that she could balefire only a couple of hours from the Pattern. She says that Rand is stronger. Much stronger. Rand himself feels that he could unravel the Pattern only with Calandor. Let's think of it that way:

He channels only a small amount of power to destroy the Darkhounds when he saved Matt in FoH. This small amount erased about two minutes from the Pattern. The power that Rand used to destroy Graendal was surely more than a hundred times greater. Are you sure this means he cannot erase two months of the Pattern with that Power O.o I'm not convinced but if you could show me where BS and RJ had said that it is actually impossible to erase such a great amount of time of the Pattern, I would be very grateful.

 

I like the theory. But I doubt it. I think it's just a coincidence that the descriptions match. Besides, Faile isn't the only one who feels what she felt when the bubble appeared.

 

No matter what amount of time Rand brought back with balefire, I wonder if we're going to see some things that are undone. For example, Graendal may have not killed the King but she may have sent him somewhere else. If she does not exist anymore, perhaps he might actually be saved.

Brandon: Let’s divorce it. Rand balefires Rahvin as hardcore as he could and Rand is one of the most powerful people to live and he got us, what have you determined, from the lightning killing Mat until balefire killed Rahvin, I’d guess fifteen minutes.

 

Matt: Well, he at least got us fifteen minutes. We don’t know how far back, we just know up to that moment.

 

Brandon: Well, we do know because if it had been too much further than that we would have noticed a lot of discrepancies in the Pattern from things he’d done…

 

Matt: Let’s say thirty minutes to an hour, at the most

 

Brandon: Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100 fold…let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city. When I first read that guess I just laughed, I’m like guys c’mon lets run the math on this.

You ask, I provide.

[Crael123]

the ripple is not the unnoticed thing in the other thread because the ripple occurred in KoD and the unnoticed thing was in books 4-6

[Usernameless]

There's evidence for and against her death thats been presented over and over AND OVER again in less than a month.

 

I think she's alive... BS and RJ never liked to kill characters off screen... the exception being Sammael, but at least we know exactly where he was when mashadar comes down because Rand saw him.  We don't see Graendal when she "dies".

 

She'll be back and will play a key role along with demandred.  They are the only two reliable forsaken imo. Even Ishy got too power hungry at one point.

I disagree. The compulsion was undone, so how could she be alive?

[trowabartan]

There's evidence for and against her death thats been presented over and over AND OVER again in less than a month.

 

I think she's alive... BS and RJ never liked to kill characters off screen... the exception being Sammael, but at least we know exactly where he was when mashadar comes down because Rand saw him.  We don't see Graendal when she "dies".

 

She'll be back and will play a key role along with demandred.  They are the only two reliable forsaken imo. Even Ishy got too power hungry at one point.

I disagree. The compulsion was undone, so how could she be alive?

 

If it's impossible to set the web of compulsion to unravel on it's own(Nynaeve did say the weave was different from the web she undid earlier) then Graendal could have compelled another channeler to weave the compulsion.  Those are the only 2 cases I can think of