Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[MatrixM]

He was introduced too early in the series.

[Sentinel78]

He was introduced too early in the series.

 

Yeah, Rhuarc's been on the scene since Book 3.  Rhuarc also seems about as likely to be a Darkfriend as Lan (i.e., not very likely).  Few darkfriends that we've seen have seemed like fundamentally good people beforehand.  And the 13/13 trick doesn't work on non-channelers.

[smileyman]

He was introduced too early in the series.

 

Yeah, Rhuarc's been on the scene since Book 3.  Rhuarc also seems about as likely to be a Darkfriend as Lan (i.e., not very likely).  Few darkfriends that we've seen have seemed like fundamentally good people beforehand.  And the 13/13 trick doesn't work on non-channelers.

 

That kind of puts a damper on that theory, though the whole "niceness" thing doesn't fly for me. Mat's Aiel gf was a DF and she seemed decent enough.

[Firebird]

He was introduced too early in the series.

 

Yeah, Rhuarc's been on the scene since Book 3.  Rhuarc also seems about as likely to be a Darkfriend as Lan (i.e., not very likely).  Few darkfriends that we've seen have seemed like fundamentally good people beforehand.  And the 13/13 trick doesn't work on non-channelers.

 

That kind of puts a damper on that theory, though the whole "niceness" thing doesn't fly for me. Mat's Aiel gf was a DF and she seemed decent enough.

Plus there's that little thing where RJ said we hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego (think it was 2005 when he said that? Long, long time after Rhuarc appeared anyway)

[Second Chance]

 

Let's ignore Demandred's "rule is secure" and "gathering for war" statements for the moment, taking this statement of Aran'gar's at face value, could Demandred be someone in Rand's entourage?  How else could he 'watch' Rand?  Why wouldn't Rand recognize him through LTT's memories, if so?  Indirectly through the reports of Darkfriends I guess?

 

Supposing Amys is a DF (speculation on that is elsewhere in these threads). Could Rhuarc actually be Demandred? Have we ever had a POV from Rhuarc? His rule is secure, he is marshaling his forces for wear, he's close to Rand. It would be a simple matter for him to weave a disguise and then invert the weaves so that it's hidden.

I thought about the Aiel possibility but I doubt that Demandred would understand enough about the complexities of Aiel culture to take the place of an Aiel. Those guys are weird!

[Luckers]

Luckers, you indicated:

 

 

Quote

And I would say that if he had a focus it was the Shadowspawn, and that it was that of shich he was speaking. As for having a base--why need someone who can travel have a base?

 

 

This might make sense in the context of Demandred gathering for war.  However, the statement that Demandred's rule is secure points away from this theory.  All of the Forsaken are marked directly by the Dark One in a manner that makes all Trollocs/Fades/Draghkar, etc. obey their will.  The Forsaken don't have to do anything to secure their rule over Shadowspawn (aside from wild Shadowspawn in the Blight like the worms I'd imagine).

 

That's actually the point I was making. Due to the compulsive effect of the Chosen Mark, ensuring against subversion like what occurred in KoD would take effort--marshelling the Shadowspawn in areas that can be monitered (not a simple task given there are probably somewhere between five to ten million of them), posting guards or watchers on the accessible Waygates, etc.

 

The ease with which the Shadowspawn can be subverted doesn't mean Demandred hasn't taken steps to secure his control of them.

 

Also, this would seem to overlap with Moridin's duties at the moment.

 

Moridin overseeing everything, not really doing it himself--this is much on a par with having Cyndane and Moghedian gather darkfriends, for instance.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 06:59:28 AM

 

There is considerably evidence for Taim having been raised Chosen himself. Either way Taim is his own boss.

 

 

I know this isn't aobut Taim so I'll keep this part short. I'm not sure if you just mean that he is now as important as the Chosen, because no, he is not Chosen, nor is he raised Chosen, because the Chosen aren't actually chosen by the DO. They're just the channelers that went over to him during the AoL. All of them. Thousands of them. Just like the dreadlords were the channelers that went over to him during the Trolloc Wars. This was stated by RJ. He might be a high-ranking channeler in the DO's forces, but he can't literally be one of the Chosen.

 

You misunderstand the destinction--yes all Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends that turned to the Shadow called themselves Chosen, but only a few (likely just the twenty-nine that were granted access to the True Power) were given the Chosen Mark and elevated to a position of high authority.

 

The Dark One made that choice, and granted that mark. Subsequently in the modern age those with that mark are the only Chosen left, ergo the presence of having that Mark and being Chosen is no longer a destinction. Or, put another way, in the modern age the presense of the Mark is to be Chosen. Were the Dark One to give a third age channeler the Chosen Mark, it would effectively raise him to the level of Chosen, thus we would name him Chosen.

 

 

[analyticalkeys]

 

Let's ignore Demandred's "rule is secure" and "gathering for war" statements for the moment, taking this statement of Aran'gar's at face value, could Demandred be someone in Rand's entourage?  How else could he 'watch' Rand?  Why wouldn't Rand recognize him through LTT's memories, if so?  Indirectly through the reports of Darkfriends I guess?

 

Supposing Amys is a DF (speculation on that is elsewhere in these threads). Could Rhuarc actually be Demandred? Have we ever had a POV from Rhuarc? His rule is secure, he is marshaling his forces for wear, he's close to Rand. It would be a simple matter for him to weave a disguise and then invert the weaves so that it's hidden.

I thought about the Aiel possibility but I doubt that Demandred would understand enough about the complexities of Aiel culture to take the place of an Aiel. Those guys are weird!

 

And what are the chances of Semirhage understanding the Seanchan so well to become such a prominent figure? It's very possible that Demandred understands them completely... although, I doubt that he's with the Aiel.

[TheAngryDruid]

I like the Shara and Black Tower ideas the most, as they kind of compete the Demandred--Semirhage--Mesaana triangle, with each controlling/manipulating a huge group of channelers. Mesaana: White Tower. Semirhage: Seanchan damane. Demanddred: BT or Shara (though the Seanchan royal throne would work too, but since it's hereditary...no).

 

As for Darlin, put that too rest, Min had a viewing with him and Caroline living a long and good life.

 

 

[MatrixM]

And Semirhage understood at least some of Aiel culture. I don't think Demandred is aiel, I reckon he's in Shara, but just saying.

[saidarisnowtainted]

What if Demandred is posing as an Aiel and has set up shop in the now flourishing Rhuidean?

[MatrixM]

Yes, perhaps, but WHAT would he be selling?

:P

[saidarisnowtainted]

maybe there's a nice big gathering of dark friend Aiel and Sharans?  Isnt the waste mostly emptied out now?

[Robo-Hillbilly]

Have any of the Aes Sedai with the borderlanders been named? I can't recall if they were even shown or just mentioned. This seems like the best place for Demandred to hide as an advisor NOT one of the leaders. He may have at least 13 BA with him and a ton of the most experienced fighters in Randland.

 

He could have taken up with Tenobia. Brashere always quips about how she might want his head for letting Taim go. We have seen how the forsaken influence good people to do boneheaded things. example Morgase and the Andorans. The borderlanders appear to be doing boneheaded things.

 

I think Demandred hates LTT so much cause he is afraid of him. What better place to fight your greatest enemy than Far Madding on equal ground. This makes the most sense, because all of the areas dealt with have been fleshed out in the books. They are not some entirely new culture to introduce.

[MatrixM]

A couple of them have been named, I'm quite sure.

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

not that im a fan of the shara idea, but apart from shienar, until recently, we havent really been any more exposed to any of the other borderlands. having bashere wander about doesnt count, because hes almost exactly the same as any generic character in the books, he doesnt seem to have an identity in that way

[Robo-Hillbilly]

A couple of them have been named, I'm quite sure.

 

Were any of them in Verin's book  ;D

[Luckers]

None have been named to date.

[Sentinel78]

That's actually the point I was making. Due to the compulsive effect of the Chosen Mark, ensuring against subversion like what occurred in KoD would take effort--marshelling the Shadowspawn in areas that can be monitered (not a simple task given there are probably somewhere between five to ten million of them), posting guards or watchers on the accessible Waygates, etc.

 

The ease with which the Shadowspawn can be subverted doesn't mean Demandred hasn't taken steps to secure his control of them.

 

Ok Luckers, I think I see what you're saying now.. After the Trolloc raid on Rand in Knife of Dreams that occurred without Moridin's approval, Moridin realizes he needs more direct control over the Shadowspawn army so he has Demandred go there to secure his rule and make sure no other Chosen can issue orders basically?  That makes some sense.

[Luckers]

That's actually the point I was making. Due to the compulsive effect of the Chosen Mark, ensuring against subversion like what occurred in KoD would take effort--marshelling the Shadowspawn in areas that can be monitered (not a simple task given there are probably somewhere between five to ten million of them), posting guards or watchers on the accessible Waygates, etc.

 

The ease with which the Shadowspawn can be subverted doesn't mean Demandred hasn't taken steps to secure his control of them.

 

Ok Luckers, I think I see what you're saying now.. After the Trolloc raid on Rand in Knife of Dreams that occurred without Moridin's approval, Moridin realizes he needs more direct control over the Shadowspawn army so he has Demandred go there to secure his rule and make sure no other Chosen can issue orders basically?  That makes some sense.

 

Pretty much, yeah. I'm not sure about the whole specifics of Moridin ordering it--Demandred may simply have reacted to the subversion etc--but yes thats the basic idea.

[Auld Manriva]

As to the sisters with the Borderlanders. In the prologue to FoH, Elaida is upbraiding a bunch of Sisters. She either thinks of someone to send or sends one of THEM to ride herd on Tenobia. I think it was a Red. Don't recall the name.

[albright]

"My rule is secure." Does not mean he can't control a nation currently in chaos (Seanchan, Shara--we can't rule them out). The temporary chaos could be part of his plan, he could have just assassinated some nobles, etc.

 

"You were responsible for watching him [Rand], Osan'gar," she went on, her voice caressing every syllable. "You, and Demandred." I think this order originated in LoC? IMO this doesn't mean he WAS watching Rand, nor does it mean his orders didn't change later. Also, he could have easily been watching indirectly through TAR. He very well may have never seen Rand face to face.

 

Options:

-Any Randland nation: No. What good would having a "secure rule" in any of these places do? If it was a nation, it would be a rule over normal people--non-darkfriends. They wouldn't fight against the Light, the best he could hope would be to keep this small fraction of Light soldiers out of the way. Not really up to Demandred's arrogant opinion of himself. Its been officially stated we haven't seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen anyway, so that almost 100% rules out most viable options anyway.

 

-Shara: Maybe, having a forsaken bring in their channellers is the only way I can see Shara playing any real role. None of the Light seem to ever think about Shara. If Shara isn't brought in somehow, I don't understand why RJ would keep mentioning one nation that had no part in the story. Logically, many nations would be mentioned (to add flavor to the world), or none. Demandred seems to be the only free Forsaken to fill this role.

 

-Seanchan: Probably not. Although the Seanchan armies are already anti-Randland and there isn't much problem getting them to fight unknowingly for the Shadow's goals, what would Demandred's position be here? The Seanchan's devotion to the Empress (may she live forever) and only the empress (may she live forever) makes you wonder what his position could actually be here. All I can think of is a high-ranking high blood.

 

-Black Tower: Maybe. He's not Taim. Yeah. He could be controlling Taim somehow though. They really seem to be connected somehow. "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" - Demandred gets this order, Taim has said it at least a couple times. Both Demandred and Taim tell the same four Ashaman to kill Rand at the same time? Not to mention at least ONE of the forsaken had to have taken an interest in the Black Tower, right? Thats too much power to ignore and all the other Forsaken seem accounted for. Somebody freed Taim from the Aes Sedai who captured him early on and taught him how to teach other male channellers. This had to be a male forsaken and it just fits well.

 

-Isle of Madmen: Probably not. We just haven't heard enough about this. That in itself seems to rule it out this late in the game. But who knows, maybe he showed up, found a bunch of male channellers, then somehow used them to take control of Shara too? It seems dangerous for a Forsaken to approach a bunch of madmen who can channel though.

[analyticalkeys]

-Black Tower: Maybe. He's not Taim. Yeah. He could be controlling Taim somehow though. They really seem to be connected somehow. "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" - Demandred gets this order, Taim has said it at least a couple times. Both Demandred and Taim tell the same four Ashaman to kill Rand at the same time? Not to mention at least ONE of the forsaken had to have taken an interest in the Black Tower, right? Thats too much power to ignore and all the other Forsaken seem accounted for. Somebody freed Taim from the Aes Sedai who captured him early on and taught him how to teach other male channellers. This had to be a male forsaken and it just fits well.

 

Doesn't Osan'gar/Aginor fit this role? I don't see why Demandred AND Osan'gar would be working on the same exact place. Just because it appears that Osan'gar was a minion of Taim, doesn't nessecerily make it so.

[Red Hand Man]

Ok, we're beating everything to death.

 

From what I gather about mechanics of writing and reading in general, Demandred showing up with Sharans or coming from the Isle of Madmen is just bad for the series at this point and taking over Seanchan would be a little far-fetched for the general reader I would think.

 

In my opinion he can only be solidly in one of three places:

 

Blight - marshaling the shadowspawn, all in all general BAMF.

 

Borderlanders - someone else suggested he could be hiding out in the neutral zone to put himself and LTT on an equal footing.

 

Murandy - We have two PoVs from inside Murandy (one from Gareth Byrne and one from Siuan Sanche -- aww love birds), we know that the city is absolutely crawling with darkfriends (it has been alluded to a number of times), the douchiest of all Asha'Man is from there, Padan Fain is from there, this is a bad place.  The general populus may just get behind Demondreadlordbamf, also the Borderlanders aren't very far away from this place (clearly I think he's in Murandy).

 

Honestly, I'd like him to be revealed as finally settling down to take control of Murandy for a few reasons, one - that would make what I'm speculating about right (I most certainly was not the first to harp on this, there was rampant speculation when the Prologue came out), two - I think it really is the only viable option.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edits in italics.

On a side note, how crazy are was as fans?  BrS, Harriet, Peter and Maria have to be super on their toes with answering our probing questions.  Kudos to them for dealing with as many insane people as they do!   :)

[MatrixM]

Somebody freed Taim from the Aes Sedai who captured him early on and taught him how to teach other male channellers. This had to be a male forsaken and it just fits well.

Not really important, but Taim knew how to train them dduring his reign as a false dragon. Perhaps independantly, perhaps through Ishamael.

[Corvinus]

I haven't read all the pages of this thread, but here is my present theory

 

Demandred is in the Borderlands. Maybe he controls all 4 countries, or at least Shienar, and possibly Arafel. I am hesitant to say that he has a direct control over all 4 countries, because as of TGS, Rodel Itularde has been in Saldea, working with Saldeans to protect the Border, and he didn't report anything suspicious to Rand (yet)

 

The reason why I think he is in the Borderlands starts with the rebellions that occurred in Shienar and Arafel. The apparent cause of the fighting there has been Rand (is he the DR or not). Also, the fighting had started about the time of the fall of the Stone of Tear, and by that time all of the Forsaken were out and about. In LoC we find the most mentions about the fighting, including the fact that it was abating. Of course, by the beginning of PoD, the fighting was done, since the 4 rulers had met. Also, sometime in book 4 or 5 I believe, Taim escapes the Aes Sedai, and Tenobia sends her best general to track him down and kill him. Then there is the whole meeting of the 4 rulers and their quest to find Rand. I could agree with them deciding to go and find Rand, but what I can't agree with is why did they have to take 200,000 men with them, including the other Great Captain of the Borderlands, Agelmar Jagad. So far we don't know the reasons why the 4 rulers are so desperate to find Rand, so all of this leads me to the conclusion that Demandred is in the Borderlands

 

Here is what I think he did: he was behind the rebellions, which helped get close to Kings Paitar and Easar. He also got close somehow to the other 2 rulers. And he used Compulsion on all 4 (not a whole lot) to make them abandon their duty and go search out Rand. I also think he helped Taim escape, then he convinced Queen Tenobia to send Bashere after Taim, thus weakening Saldea.

I have a feeling that when Rand finally meets with the 4 rulers, they will not be able to explain to him their reasons, and Rand or one if his Asha'man will discover the Compulsion on them, and...

 

If my theory is correct, then there is one prediction I would like to make. Demandred will soon discover that he has a thorn in his side: The Uncrowned King