Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[1eejit]

You can see the weaves if you can channel that power (saidin or saidar, not TP), whether you are currently holding it or not.

 

Edit: unless you have some kind of block/are just learning etc. like with Nynaeve or the sul'dam.

[Sentinel78]

Yeah, when Semirhage burns Rand's handoff in Knife of Dreams, he's knocked to the ground and feels Saidin being woven all around before he grabs the source.

 

Also, Rand stops grabbing saidin a lot of times when he gets the nausea side effect, and instead relies upon others to make gateways and all that, and I'm pretty sure Rand was still seeing the weaves.

[Aceviper]

You can see the weaves if you can channel that power (saidin or saidar, not TP), whether you are currently holding it or not.

 

Edit: unless you have some kind of block/are just learning etc. like with Nynaeve or the sul'dam.

 

I conceed :)  Far Madding doesnt lend credibility to the Complusion Theory.

[elmis]

I like the pie theory, I assume wherever we've seen something not happening the way light wants it (and there are no other Forsakens [taking away Osan'gar here] messing about), Demandred is using proxies.

 

The Dark Tower

The Borderlanders

The Prophet

Murandy?

The Blight

 

He's got two fingers in each pie slice.

[WolfDragonFox]

What's wrong with diet coke and coffee??!!!

 

Nothing I was tardecently ranting....lol

[OHurley]

What an interesting little mess this is, trying to figure out what Demandred is up to...

 

I think I'm gonna have to go with the theory that when he uses a proxy, he basically takes over their personality, kinda like demonic possession. That alone explains why LTT when balistic about killing Demandred when he saw Taim.

 

Still where's his flat, like? Nobody can figure out where he's livin', and I'm guessing we're not supposed to know yet. Has RJ or BS ever even HINTED as to whether or not this is even figure-outable?

[StefanR]

Does anybody know why Demandred was in the Pit of Doom at the end of LOC?

 

"Demandred knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once he did not care that Shaidar Haran watched his

trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. "Have I not done well, Great Lord?" The Great Lord's laughter

filled Demandred's head."

[Samudor]

Well, my guess would be that Demandred was getting rewarded a bit for the resounding success at the end of LOC. Although the Ashaman won the day, a permanent wedge was driven between Rand and the Aes Sedai- that was more important than anything else that occurred in the story(aside from the lingering traumatic effects Rand's imprisonment has on him). Demandred definitely is working through Taim, and managed to plant Osangar among the Ashaman. All in all, even Ishamael himself would have been proud at the way Demandred has infiltrated Rand's infrastrcture. In fact, Demandred's schemes are the only ones set in motion back then that still had an effect this deeply into the story. It will be interesting to see if Demandred really is as brilliant as he seems to think he is.

[FanoLan]

Agreed with above re: Dem's LoC activity and subsequent SG ecstasy session.  Question for my fellow WoTmaniacs as I cannot recall and haven't been able to find it - do we see through one of Dem's gateways to his destination at some point?  I seem to recall seeing him go through one to a snow glade or something.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

All in all, I have to agree with the many pies, many fingers of Dem take on things.  At least for most of the story - particularly during the time between Ishy and Moridin.  Lately, he seems to be a bit more focused.

[Al Jenn Mael]

MMM... Pie

 

Demandred moved out from behind the columns of the Grand Hall and looked from the two thrones to

where the girl had vanished. Elayne Trakand, unless he missed his guess wildly, and using a minor ter'angreal

by the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students. He would have given much to know what

was in her head, but her words and expression had been plain enough. She did not like what al'Thor was doing

here, not in the least, and meant to do something about it. A determined young woman, he suspected. In any

case, another thread in the tangle yanked, however feeble the pull turned out to be.

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule," he told the thrones—though he still wished he knew why it had to be so—

and opened a gateway to leave Tel'aran'rhiod.

[SimpleJo]

I am going with the theory that he his mucking about in Shara.  Though Seanchan makes good sense given his whole modus operendi is to work in alliance with Semiharge and Messana.  So it wouldn't be a surprise if he was playing in Semi's sandbox as they say.

[Al Jenn Mael]

So it wouldn't be a surprise if he was playing in Semi's sandbox as they say.

 

Demandred hardly scorned fleshly pleasures, but one day her cravings would be the death of her.

 

O.o

 

Demandred has to be somewhere big, otherwise all the suspense in the books will have been for naught. I doubt this buildup will just lead to him minding shapowspawn. It might be likely that wherever he is, his rule will be undermined and so he'll be forced into the singular role of shadowspawn general.

 

Five areas have been presented as mediocre to likely possibilites

 

Shara, Seanchan, Murandy, Borderlands (either the countries or with the leaders), and the Isle of Madmen.

 

Seanchan was in chaos recently and it would be unlikely that demandred has only recently focused on his base of operations.

 

Murandy would be anticlimactic.

 

The borderlands seem a little unstable for the shadow to try and secure any assets there. Although he might only be using this as a means for making chaos I think that it would be more probable this isn't his main focus and instead be just another 'pie'.

 

Shara and the Isle of Madmen have been loosely and vaguely referenced. RJ could just have included Shara to show that everywhere in the world is being touched by the shadow and seeing chaos and the effect of the DO breaking free. However I think these are two most likely possibilities Shara being the first among the two. As for Grendals involvement, it is possible Demandred didn't want to give away his location (And would be a clever illusion) as he seems to have made an effort in not being located by either the Light or the other Forsaken.   

[Crael123]

So it wouldn't be a surprise if he was playing in Semi's sandbox as they say.

 

Demandred hardly scorned fleshly pleasures, but one day her cravings would be the death of her.

 

O.o

 

Demandred has to be somewhere big, otherwise all the suspense in the books will have been for naught. I doubt this buildup will just lead to him minding shapowspawn. It might be likely that wherever he is, his rule will be undermined and so he'll be forced into the singular role of shadowspawn general.

 

Five areas have been presented as mediocre to likely possibilites

 

Shara, Seanchan, Murandy, Borderlands (either the countries or with the leaders), and the Isle of Madmen.

 

Seanchan was in chaos recently and it would be unlikely that demandred has only recently focused on his base of operations.

 

Murandy would be anticlimactic.

 

The borderlands seem a little unstable for the shadow to try and secure any assets there. Although he might only be using this as a means for making chaos I think that it would be more probable this isn't his main focus and instead be just another 'pie'.

 

Shara and the Isle of Madmen have been loosely and vaguely referenced. RJ could just have included Shara to show that everywhere in the world is being touched by the shadow and seeing chaos and the effect of the DO breaking free. However I think these are two most likely possibilities Shara being the first among the two. As for Grendals involvement, it is possible Demandred didn't want to give away his location (And would be a clever illusion) as he seems to have made an effort in not being located by either the Light or the other Forsaken.   

 

 

he wouldn't be seanchan that would be stupid. semi was there and i dont think semi would like somebody else playing with her toys

 

Shara and the isle of madmen would be anti climatic and out of character for demondred cuz he likes to b in the thick of things and those 2 places are as out of the way as you can get; and they have never bee mentioned. also gran already successfully threw shara into chaos when she stole their leaders and that messed them up

 

murandy would serve no point to the story seeing how it is a small and insignificant country, an unlikely creche for him, as i said before, he enjoys the spotlight.

 

So he is likey in the Borderlands, because 1 that would be the ultimate FU to the Light because that is were they fight the shadow the hardest 2) the army is in place as he said in the prologue of TGS. so that makes sense. 3) massive army to destroy with 5) took the army away from the blight so the trollocs would have a free ticket to get into Randland

 

so the borderlands is the most likely location.

 

 

 

[mossman87]

So it wouldn't be a surprise if he was playing in Semi's sandbox as they say.

 

Demandred hardly scorned fleshly pleasures, but one day her cravings would be the death of her.

 

O.o

 

Demandred has to be somewhere big, otherwise all the suspense in the books will have been for naught. I doubt this buildup will just lead to him minding shapowspawn. It might be likely that wherever he is, his rule will be undermined and so he'll be forced into the singular role of shadowspawn general.

 

Five areas have been presented as mediocre to likely possibilites

 

Shara, Seanchan, Murandy, Borderlands (either the countries or with the leaders), and the Isle of Madmen.

 

Seanchan was in chaos recently and it would be unlikely that demandred has only recently focused on his base of operations.

 

Murandy would be anticlimactic.

 

The borderlands seem a little unstable for the shadow to try and secure any assets there. Although he might only be using this as a means for making chaos I think that it would be more probable this isn't his main focus and instead be just another 'pie'.

 

Shara and the Isle of Madmen have been loosely and vaguely referenced. RJ could just have included Shara to show that everywhere in the world is being touched by the shadow and seeing chaos and the effect of the DO breaking free. However I think these are two most likely possibilities Shara being the first among the two. As for Grendals involvement, it is possible Demandred didn't want to give away his location (And would be a clever illusion) as he seems to have made an effort in not being located by either the Light or the other Forsaken.   

 

 

he wouldn't be seanchan that would be stupid. semi was there and i dont think semi would like somebody else playing with her toys

 

Shara and the isle of madmen would be anti climatic and out of character for demondred cuz he likes to b in the thick of things and those 2 places are as out of the way as you can get; and they have never bee mentioned. also gran already successfully threw shara into chaos when she stole their leaders and that messed them up

 

murandy would serve no point to the story seeing how it is a small and insignificant country, an unlikely creche for him, as i said before, he enjoys the spotlight.

 

So he is likey in the Borderlands, because 1 that would be the ultimate FU to the Light because that is were they fight the shadow the hardest 2) the army is in place as he said in the prologue of TGS. so that makes sense. 3) massive army to destroy with 5) took the army away from the blight so the trollocs would have a free ticket to get into Randland

 

so the borderlands is the most likely location.

 

 

Although I agree the Borderlands looks the best, considering how important they are, and how odd their behavior is going to Far Madding, you can't rule out the others based on him liking the spotlight, as he hasn't been under any spotlight all series, he's kept himself hidden in the shadows quite well.

[Crael123]

Well yeah if you put it that way mossman..... but aside from that point the other options would all be anti climatic for the most part.

[The Fisher King]

Crael and Mossman...Ive been following yalls discussion and it gave me a sad thought of speculation...

 

I have slowly come more and more and more round to the belief that Dem is indeed probably manipulating events in the Borderlands...Probably Saldea...

 

Which brings me to the sad part...Bashere is Saldean? ... Demandred manipulating Saldea ... Min haveing Viewings that COULD imply Bashere turning away from The Light/Rand???

 

Add it up.

 

I have never bought into any idea of Bashere ending up anywhere except loyally on The Side of The Light...but, thinking about these factors is a sad concern...

 

 

Fish

[mossman87]

Something has to be up with them, their behavior just makes no sense at all.  Imagine if China was getting ready to invade the US, and all of a sudden the whole military and our leaders up and go to Brazil.  

 

It may not be Demandred, but.. I dunno, how do you even get that many people who have dedicated their lives to fighting the dark and protecting the country to just up and leave, no rebellions?  No valiant soldier running to Andor or something and telling them something is up with their countrymen?  If it IS the dark, they can't compulse the whole army to go along with them, can they?

 

The thing hurts my brain, cause the Borderlanders are one of the only things I can't wrap my head around at all (Or make myself think I wrapped my head around it :)).  I'm sure in the end it'll make sense, but right now it's completely illogical to me.

 

And don't even get me started on the 13 Aes Sedai lol, something like that isn't a coincidence.

[Worm]

I've been thinking about the whole - demandred is ruling/controlling the borderland army for awhile now and I just can't see how it would work. We have been led to believe that the climax of the borderland army arc will happen in Far Madding - a city in which it is impossible to draw on the true source. This means that if demandred is secretly rulng the army his plan must be something to do with capturing/killing Rand.

 

One simple question - Why Far Madding?

Seriously if Demandred is lurking in Far madding it is the most ridiculous move since Sammaels "lets fight in the city that contains the evil shadow-hating monster - betcha I'll win cos I have a trap set up." strategy. All the evidence we have been shown so far points to Demandred wanting to kill Rand himself in a fair fight to prove which one of them is better.

 

The Far Madding thing suggests Demandred thinks that the only way he can beat Rand is if he faces him when neither can draw on the power, he has an army of 200,000 people ready to help him and Rand only has one arm. I know that people have posted other reasons he may have subverted the borderland army but seriously does anyone think Demandred is going to be able to trick 200,000 soldiers to fight with the Trollocs rather than against them?

 

and moving an army away from the action is a bit useless considering the power of travelling. No I think that Deamdred is controlling something else. And on the subject of the borderland army...

 

It seems natural to me that after hearing that the dragon is having trouble in the lands behind the Borders that they would send an army to try and help him/discuss the issue. It also seems natural that they would get angry after Rand ignores them again and again. But it doesn't explain the ultra-paranoid last minute move to far madding.

 

Something has made them doubt Rand. They feel that they have to prevent him channeling at the meeting for some reason. But why? I've already said I don't think Demandred is there because it doesn't fit his character (and because Rand actually pondered that he was there, a sure sign he is NOT) so who has made the generals crazy with Rand fear since the last few books.

 

Or to be precise who has shown a nack for infiltrating Dark One hating societies(White Tower/White Cloaks? Who has unnatural powers that do not stem from the True Source? Who has a hated of Rand so powerful that he would lay such an elaborate trap? Who has already been to Far Madding and nearlly killed Rand there? When did the Borderland Army start acting strangely? Where has Padan Fain been since book 9...

 

I'm not saying he has been behind it from the start that would be ridiculous but does anyone agree that there is a possibility that this is where he has been for the last few books. It makes logical sense the only problems are Hurin&Co who have met him before but he could get around that with pwnage Mordeth powers / a changed appearance (when they first found him he was a ragged, crazy peddler.)

[mossman87]

I don't believe Demandred is with the Borderlanders either, because of Graendal and Rand thinking about him with them, as you say.

 

I can, sort of, rationalize their thinking that they've been the protectors of the land from the Blight for 3,000 years now and Rand is destroying the land (or so they hear).  And they feel it's their duty to handle Rand, but Aes Sedai factions felt the same way.  But at the same time, I can't see them thinking leaving their lands defenseless is the best course of action.

 

So you get to, and capture Rand, but now the Blight is as far down as Tar Valon because no one was there to protect it, so you lose anyway.

 

It'd be hard for me to accept they did that with no urgings from the Dark, or even Fain as you said.  Don't think it's likely, but we know his power can takeover a whole area/city.  Though going by that Murandy would make more sense for Fain.

[FanoLan]

 

It seems natural to me that after hearing that the dragon is having trouble in the lands behind the Borders that they would send an army to try and help him/discuss the issue. It also seems natural that they would get angry after Rand ignores them again and again. But it doesn't explain the ultra-paranoid last minute move to far madding.

 

Something has made them doubt Rand. They feel that they have to prevent him channeling at the meeting for some reason. But why? I've already said I don't think Demandred is there because it doesn't fit his character (and because Rand actually pondered that he was there, a sure sign he is NOT) so who has made the generals crazy with Rand fear since the last few books.

 

Or to be precise who has shown a nack for infiltrating Dark One hating societies(White Tower/White Cloaks? Who has unnatural powers that do not stem from the True Source? Who has a hated of Rand so powerful that he would lay such an elaborate trap? Who has already been to Far Madding and nearlly killed Rand there? When did the Borderland Army start acting strangely? Where has Padan Fain been since book 9...

 

I'm not saying he has been behind it from the start that would be ridiculous but does anyone agree that there is a possibility that this is where he has been for the last few books. It makes logical sense the only problems are Hurin&Co who have met him before but he could get around that with pwnage Mordeth powers / a changed appearance (when they first found him he was a ragged, crazy peddler.)

 

Well presented and definitely something with which I agree.  Except the part about Borderlanders seeming "natural" to you - from World's End to The Spine of the World they are one odd group of folks. Just kidding, it does seem like Fain got involved after the genesis of their exodus.

[mossman87]

 

It seems natural to me that after hearing that the dragon is having trouble in the lands behind the Borders that they would send an army to try and help him/discuss the issue. It also seems natural that they would get angry after Rand ignores them again and again. But it doesn't explain the ultra-paranoid last minute move to far madding.

 

Something has made them doubt Rand. They feel that they have to prevent him channeling at the meeting for some reason. But why? I've already said I don't think Demandred is there because it doesn't fit his character (and because Rand actually pondered that he was there, a sure sign he is NOT) so who has made the generals crazy with Rand fear since the last few books.

 

Or to be precise who has shown a nack for infiltrating Dark One hating societies(White Tower/White Cloaks? Who has unnatural powers that do not stem from the True Source? Who has a hated of Rand so powerful that he would lay such an elaborate trap? Who has already been to Far Madding and nearlly killed Rand there? When did the Borderland Army start acting strangely? Where has Padan Fain been since book 9...

 

I'm not saying he has been behind it from the start that would be ridiculous but does anyone agree that there is a possibility that this is where he has been for the last few books. It makes logical sense the only problems are Hurin&Co who have met him before but he could get around that with pwnage Mordeth powers / a changed appearance (when they first found him he was a ragged, crazy peddler.)

 

Well presented and definitely something with which I agree.  Except the part about Borderlanders seeming "natural" to you - from World's End to The Spine of the World they are one odd group of folks. Just kidding, it does seem like Fain got involved after the genesis of their exodus.

 

Definitely could be, we know Fain looks for factions with power, Seanchan, Whitecloaks, Tower AS sort of but he was just there to get his dagger.  And the Mordeth side of Fain was a counselor to a king, so it definitely could work.  Fain would know about Far Madding too.  And the connection of Fain / Fal Dara in TGH, definitely a leap.

 

Relevant Q&A to get some ideas flowin, but I'll stop after this since it's a Demandred thread. :)

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=28

Fain might be said to be contagious in the sense that he corrupts those he is around long enough, but not in the sense that they then have something communicable.  As for his influence over people, remember that Fain is now an amalgam of Fain and Mordeth, and Mordeth was a counselor, quite accustomed to and skilled in gaining the ears of the mighty.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.

 

Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow.

 

So I could see him with the Borderlanders, and in Lugard, his hometown, being the king's right hand man.  Though I dunno how I feel about Lugard becoming another Shadar Logoth, seems kind of cheesy, though the Murandy people's mindset of distrust and hatred of foreigners welcomes the Mordeth taint.

 

[Morsmordre]

I read all the comments until page 6 for the last 50 minutes and then I gave up... I fail to understand why there are people who reject theories based on their own theories and not on facts. While, however, there are other people who provide actual facts from the books..

 

I do not think Demandred is gathering the Shadowspawn because Graendal is pretty sure that this is Moridin's job. If she is so certain about Moridin's activity, I think it is more important to look at the thing she is uncertain of (meaning, Demandred's activity). I exclude from my points the Borderlanders because I really like the idea of Padan Fein being the one who tries to lure Rand into a trap. Fein is well known for his ability to manipulate.

 

I, like many other people who said it before me, think that Demandred is behind some of the major events that look like chaos.

From what we now so far, he has made an alliance with Semirhage (may she find shelter in the Creator's hand :( ) and Mesaana. Graendal finally came to the conclusion that he is the most powerful of the three. The DO gave him the order to bring chaos to these lands. Combine all of it and you find the gand architect:

1. The alliance is Demandred's idea. He suggests Mesaana to take control over the WT, and Semirhage - over Seanchan.

2. Sammael told Graendal he sees Demandred's mark in the southern events. Chaos is not a word used for only one thing. Chaos is massive. If there is chaos, it is everywhere.

3. Thus, Massema's 'visions' of the Dragon (surely, Demandred) and the corrupting of the BT both prove as powerful ways to sew chaos.

4. I am sure there are other events (not so big and important as the BT, but still annoying and causing pain to Rand) but I don't have the books with me and I cannot remember them.

 

If you mix the chaos that Mesaana and Semirhage did with some of the chaotic events you will have a large picture of chaos. 'Have I not done well?' this is what he asked, isn't it?

 

As for his location... He is not in Tear, Illyean, Andor, Arad Doman, Cairhien and any of the other major cities. I like the idea of Shara, but I like the idea of Murandi much more... We have never met Roedran (as far as I remember) but he appears to be well financed for a king of a recently centralized country. Where does he have all the money to support the Band? Also, I have always thought that Rand's cause is lost because of all the Darkfriends that have infiltrated his armies and alliances... Just imagine it!!! When the Last Battle begins, all the Darkfriends commit a suicidal act by turning on the people following the Light. And what happens? Rand's armies are in chaos, anarchy! Nobody knows who's a Darkfriend and who's not!

Next, while Rand is trying to protect his armies from the Darkfriends who have suddenly started to kill everyone, Demandred strikes Andor and Cairhien from Murandi.

 

Btw, I think the Blight is so quiet because there aren't any trollocks and murdraal in the Blight. I think the Machin Shin is no more and Moridin has gathered all the trolloks and murdraal in the Ways to wait and strike alongside with Demandred at the heart of the major countries.

 

These are all theories. I am open to critics.

[mossman87]

Could be.  ;)

 

As good as any other theory.

[Crael123]

good theory morsmodre. it makes sense.

[Sentinel78]

I do not think Demandred is gathering the Shadowspawn because Graendal is pretty sure that this is Moridin's job. If she is so certain about Moridin's activity, I think it is more important to look at the thing she is uncertain of (meaning, Demandred's activity). I exclude from my points the Borderlanders because I really like the idea of Padan Fein being the one who tries to lure Rand into a trap. Fein is well known for his ability to manipulate.

 

I do not believe Fain can be with the Borderlanders.  Fain is a known DF that who was personally introduced to Jagad in Book I while Moiraine elaborated on him being perhaps the more corrupt DF in history.  Fain was then a prisoner of Jagad in Book I and then escaped in Book II with the Horn of Valere.  Jagad is not likely to forget Fain.  Also, Hurin could smell Fain (or anywhere he's been over the past year) from about a mile away.  Hurin would recognize this stench as belonging to Fain, as Hurin tracked Fain across an entire continent in Book II. 

 

Btw, I think the Blight is so quiet because there aren't any trollocks and murdraal in the Blight. I think the Machin Shin is no more and Moridin has gathered all the trolloks and murdraal in the Ways to wait and strike alongside with Demandred at the heart of the major countries.

 

In Knife of Dreams, Moridin calls a Forsaken happy hour to whine about someone impersonating Sammael and ordering a large number of Trollocs into the Ways.  If the Trollocs were already in the Ways in large numbers, I'm guessing Moridin would have used different language.