The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Bob T Dwarf]

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 3 Question: After Moiraine fought Lanfear in Cairhien, what happened to the wagons full of ter'angreal and such that came out of the Aiel Waste? Are they just in some storeroom there? And what happened to Moiraine's horse Aldieb?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The ter'angreal and so forth that came from Rhuidean are still in Cairhien for the moment, warded by Rand so they aren't accessible to anyone but him. Aldieb is in the stables at the Sun Palace.

[Norm]

First time posting here, but I just had to chime in with what I think it is. Perhaps this has been discussed before, but it always seemed to me that the oddness with the weather (which began in the 4th book if I'm not mistaken) is more linked to Rand than to the Dark One. So this could be something that has been going on in the background this whole time, with everyone blaming the Dark One. Now that Rand is no longer trying to force himself to be "hard" perhaps we will see the weather issues going away. This is backed up (at least a little) by the break in the clouds after his revelation on Dragonmount. There's also the whole thing about the Dragon being one with the land or whatever Thom says in Rand's dream in EotW. Perhaps the food spoilage is also a result of Rand's mental state. By all means shoot this down if there is evidence to the contrary, I have only started frequenting forums recently, so I am not as well versed as some of you, and could be way off.

 

This would also fall in line with the King Arthur parallels that have been evident throughout...

[pygmalion]

I don't think anything has been said about it being important at TG, just that it was something important that has been missed by most fans that started in book 4. Also I do think that the food spoiling is very important to TG, since armies with no food are not very good armies (I realize that the "real" battle will be for Rand's soul, but still, it would be nice if the whole world wasn't covered with Trollocs after the good guys win.)

[Sentinel78]

The Dark One, not Rand, has been affecting the weather.  This is from Moridin's POV, Chapter 2 of Path of Daggers, after being informed of the  Bowl of the Winds:

 

He seized the True Power without thought, the saa billowing black across his sight. His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger. The Great Lord would not be pleased. He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place. He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased.

 

[Natural Born Killer]

these are the only suggestions i could come up with off the top of my head; using issues first presented or worsned in books 4-6

 

- something to do with the "Snakes & Foxes"

 

I'm thinking it could be the first mentioning on how to free Moiraine?

 

In The Shadow Rising Birgitte tells Perrin that the Tower of Ghenjei is a bad place for humankind. She says once entered the Tower of Ghenjei is hard to leave in the world of men. She says the only way to win a game of Snakes & Foxes is to break the rules and then she recites from the game "courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind" Perrin says he does not understand what this has to do with the tower. She says that the game is a remembrance of old dealings with the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. And we all know thre rules against music, iron and fire when entering into the finn-land.

 

But I guess all aspects of the free-Moiraine adventure have been discussed to death on the boards.

[pygmalion]

Well. That pretty neatly destroys my little theory. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

[mattdaddy]

Ok guys lets look at what seem to be the most commonly discussed theories:

 

Something to do with the Tower of Ghenjei and the Aelfinn/Eelfinn

Lost cache of angreal or a new unknown angreal

Ogier returning to the fight

Tinkers returning to the fight

Shara's involvement

Sea Folk prophecies

Rand and the Dark One's affect on the weather

 

Now, I personally am leaning towards the tinkers or the Ogier ideas, but what I'd like to know from someone who reads these boards more than I do is which of these plots have not already been discussed in depth on these forums. That is one of the few key clues we have to go on.  If some of them have already been addressed than we can rule them out.

[wvlr2]

Week 3 Question: After Moiraine fought Lanfear in Cairhien, what happened to the wagons full of ter'angreal and such that came out of the Aiel Waste? Are they just in some storeroom there? And what happened to Moiraine's horse Aldieb?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The ter'angreal and so forth that came from Rhuidean are still in Cairhien for the moment, warded by Rand so they aren't accessible to anyone but him. Aldieb is in the stables at the Sun Palace.

 

Thanks Bob.

 

Well if it is not that.

 

Could it be that all through the books (maybe since book 3 or so) we see Verin drawing pictures, of flowers I think, and at one point she thinks to herself that she needs to pass on the cypher for these secret notes.     But when she gives "the Book" to Eggy it is a reference book of gibberish sentences.

 

Also in TGS Mat sees Verin and realizes that she is "gamming him" but then proceeds (apparently) to believe what she says.

 

The same with Eggy.    Something like.   Eggy - "I don't trust you, I don't think I ever did."

Verin - "That is good, after all I am BA."   Then after the test to make sure that she was dead.   Now Eggy seems to believe everything in the "Book".    If the DO does not give a shit about the Forsaken, do you think that he wouldn't sacrifice Verin and his BA's to forward his cause?   I wonder what else is in that book that could lead the good guys astray?     And WHERE is Verin's real picture book?

 

 

[Aleron688]

Well if it is not that.

 

Could it be that all through the books (maybe since book 3 or so) we see Verin drawing pictures, of flowers I think, and at one point she thinks to herself that she needs to pass on the cypher for these secret notes.     But when she gives "the Book" to Eggy it is a reference book of gibberish sentences.

 

Also in TGS Mat sees Verin and realizes that she is "gamming him" but then proceeds (apparently) to believe what she says.

 

The same with Eggy.    Something like.   Eggy - "I don't trust you, I don't think I ever did."

Verin - "That is good, after all I am BA."   Then after the test to make sure that she was dead.   Now Eggy seems to believe everything in the "Book".    If the DO does not give a shit about the Forsaken, do you think that he wouldn't sacrifice Verin and his BA's to forward his cause?   I wonder what else is in that book that could lead the good guys astray?     And WHERE is Verin's real picture book?

 

 

 

I think you've gotten the wrong idea.  She gives the cipher to Egwene along with the book containing all the information about the BA.  and i REALLY don't think she just killed herself to set them on the wrong path... while actually giving over the REAL names of the BA (they were real names because those on the list were either tested with the oath rod or fled the tower).  Why would the DO want all his little minions in the WT to be ousted?

 

As for a picture book, either there are pictures in the book she gave egwene, or else it isn't important.  What IS important is who she gave the rest of those letters to, and what they contained

[Kelitor]

Hmmm, I'll throw out a few guesses.

 

 

1. What is happening to Aiel men who can channel?

 

2. We saw an explanation once of how Shara handles channelers, and how they kill all sons of female channelers at 20 or so, after breeding them. Rand ran around talking a lot about Shara in order to confuse Sammael a long time ago. Was it just talk?

 

3. Avendesora. The Aiel in Rand's memories made a huge deal over their Chora seedlings. Last we saw of the only Chora tree (that we know of) in existence, it'd been scorched by Rand and Asmodean (the idiots). What has happened to the Tree? With Rhuidean open, and that lake forming, the chiefs could have potentially decided to begin cultivating seedlings. I don't remember ever hearing that Avendesora was confirmed dead. It could have survived having some surface scorching. If so, we could possibly see Aviendha bringing back seedlings from Rhuidean.

 

4. I feel like it was said that some of the Aiel who become depressed and run away, and some find Tinkers to join.

 

5. What would: Nym + Ogier + Human, singing the Seed-song Rand experienced when he was in Rhuidean, do to the Blight? Of course, this means we'd need a new Nym. But the Nym were made by Aes Sedai. Rand now has recovered the memories of his past incarnations. Hmmm.

 

6. Men's ability to sense to detect female channeling. It would seem to break all the rules, but no one has ever questioned why men can sense women, but women can't sense men.

 

 

Hmmmm....

 

7. When Rand visits his little schools, he's watched the inventors working on a steam engine. Are we about to have an Industrial Revolution?

[wvlr2]

 

I think you've gotten the wrong idea.  She gives the cipher to Egwene along with the book containing all the information about the BA.  and i REALLY don't think she just killed herself to set them on the wrong path... while actually giving over the REAL names of the BA (they were real names because those on the list were either tested with the oath rod or fled the tower).  Why would the DO want all his little minions in the WT to be ousted?

 

As for a picture book, either there are pictures in the book she gave egwene, or else it isn't important.  What IS important is who she gave the rest of those letters to, and what they contained

 

You talk like you know what the would and would not do.    That is something that we just don't know.   The proof that we don't really know what the DO is up to is obvious in the fact that the Access Key was stored in the same place that Caddy put the Domination Band, but the DO did not have his agents take that when the took the Collar.    The DO obviously wanted Rand to keep the key.   As I said before - if the DO will sacrifice his Forsaken for his cause - he will surely sacrifice some of his BA.

 

[mynameis]

First time poster, and I'm not sure what may have been discussed to death or not, but...

I think that the unnoticed thing is something to do with the Tinkers. Specifically the mystery of what the Tinker message "Tell the Dragon Reborn..."  written in blood that Mat finds in LOC is referring to.

[mossman87]

First time poster, and I'm not sure what may have been discussed to death or not, but...

I think that the unnoticed thing is something to do with the Tinkers. Specifically the mystery of what the Tinker message "Tell the Dragon Reborn..."  written in blood that Mat finds in LOC is referring to.

 

 

To me this one makes the most sense along with Shara, because it's a puzzle I don't think anyone has solved, or even talked about really, at least in my years upon years of lurking I've never seen it mentioned.

[Aleron688]

First time poster, and I'm not sure what may have been discussed to death or not, but...

I think that the unnoticed thing is something to do with the Tinkers. Specifically the mystery of what the Tinker message "Tell the Dragon Reborn..."  written in blood that Mat finds in LOC is referring to.

 

I honestly don't even remember this happening.  What book is it in, and what exactly happens?

[Auld Manriva]

Well. That pretty neatly destroys my little theory. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

Not Necessarily... The Weather is pretty much normal since the Bowl of the Winds. Spring had "sprung" at the start of TGS BUT crops were stunted, things were spoiling faster than ever, etc., etc. Those things I think have been attributed to Rand and his mental state, yes?

 

I'm not sure we've touched on the Big Mystery yet. A lot's been thrown at the wall, but nothing's stuck yet. I think there are a couple suspects though.

The Tinkers might be it.

The hinky connection with the OP; felt by Rand and others when TBotW was being used "without the use and mixture of Saidin" as well as Saidar. That has been discussed some but it seems to me to have always been deemed unimportant. This lack of both halves of the OP being used in circles has caused issues. And what to this point has been, without discussion, the greatest, most successful use of the OP to date in the story? The cleansing of Saidin and the defeat/negating of the Forsaken, which was accomplished HOW....

[Aleron688]

Well. That pretty neatly destroys my little theory. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

Not Necessarily... The Weather is pretty much normal since the Bowl of the Winds. Spring had "sprung" at the start of TGS BUT crops were stunted, things were spoiling faster than ever, etc., etc. Those things I think have been attributed to Rand and his mental state, yes?

 

I'm not sure we've touched on the Big Mystery yet. A lot's been thrown at the wall, but nothing's stuck yet. I think there are a couple suspects though.

The Tinkers might be it.

The hinky connection with the OP; felt by Rand and others when TBotW was being used "without the use and mixture of Saidin" as well as Saidar. That has been discussed some but it seems to me to have always been deemed unimportant. This lack of both halves of the OP being used in circles has caused issues. And what to this point has been, without discussion, the greatest, most successful use of the OP to date in the story? The cleansing of Saidin and the defeat/negating of the Forsaken, which was accomplished HOW....

 

indeed.  now, what does TBotW mean? i thought it was "The Breaking of the World" lol... forgive my ignorance :)

 

I've said before... on several threads... that megacircles should be used... with 35 male and 37 female channelers with Rand leading it with his skills from the AoL

 

i see i see. bowl of the winds. good to know

 

[Auld Manriva]

indeed.  now, what does TBotW mean? i thought it was "The Breaking of the World" lol... forgive my ignorance Smiley

The Bowl of the Winds

[Ashamandragoran]

Not sure if this is the unoticed thing, but for the Aelfin, here is what I think:

 

The game of snakes and foxes begins with a rhyme, "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind."

 

Snakes can sense radiated heat using something like infrared vision to catch pray, an intense heat (fire) will blind them of where the pray is.

 

Aludra's matches are going to come in handy for Mat. He will use them to light a fire and blind the snake people.

 

I'm sure Thom's musical skills will come in handy for the dazzling part.

[Aleron688]

Not sure if this is the unoticed thing, but for the Aelfin, here is what I think:

 

The game of snakes and foxes begins with a rhyme, "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind."

 

Snakes can sense radiated heat using something like infrared vision to catch pray, an intense heat (fire) will blind them of where the pray is.

 

Aludra's matches are going to come in handy for Mat. He will use them to light a fire and blind the snake people.

 

I'm sure Thom's musical skills will come in handy for the dazzling part.

 

there will be some foxy people in there with the snakes...

[richnewton82]

.

[Sentinel78]

5. What would: Nym + Ogier + Human, singing the Seed-song Rand experienced when he was in Rhuidean, do to the Blight? Of course, this means we'd need a new Nym. But the Nym were made by Aes Sedai. Rand now has recovered the memories of his past incarnations. Hmmm.

 

Yeah, Somestha (Green Man) was the last Nym and he died (not expecting a vacuole with a fresh Nym to show up), so that's why I kind of ruled out the Song being rediscovered... but still, something might be up with the Tinkers.  And you're right, to my knowledge we've never seen any Aiel tinkers, although Rand ran into a 'lost' Aiel in Far Madding in the streets. 

 

I think it's Shara, but could be Tinkers.  All the other proposals relate to things that have been talked to death, or are not things that qualify as 'ongoing' or continuing events. 

 

But really, aside from the Song, what relevance could the Tinkers really have?  In the 4th Age I see them making a big comeback.. but during the Last Battle??  Not so much.

[Aleron688]

5. What would: Nym + Ogier + Human, singing the Seed-song Rand experienced when he was in Rhuidean, do to the Blight? Of course, this means we'd need a new Nym. But the Nym were made by Aes Sedai. Rand now has recovered the memories of his past incarnations. Hmmm.

 

Yeah, Somestha (Green Man) was the last Nym and he died (not expecting a vacuole with a fresh Nym to show up), so that's why I kind of ruled out the Song being rediscovered... but still, something might be up with the Tinkers.  And you're right, to my knowledge we've never seen any Aiel tinkers, although Rand ran into a 'lost' Aiel in Far Madding in the streets. 

 

I think it's Shara, but could be Tinkers.  All the other proposals relate to things that have been talked to death, or are not things that qualify as 'ongoing' or continuing events. 

 

But really, aside from the Song, what relevance could the Tinkers really have?  In the 4th Age I see them making a big comeback.. but during the Last Battle??  Not so much.

 

agreed. now what is all this about the Tinkers writing something in blood for mat to see?

[Random Man]

5. What would: Nym + Ogier + Human, singing the Seed-song Rand experienced when he was in Rhuidean, do to the Blight? Of course, this means we'd need a new Nym. But the Nym were made by Aes Sedai. Rand now has recovered the memories of his past incarnations. Hmmm.

 

Yeah, Somestha (Green Man) was the last Nym and he died (not expecting a vacuole with a fresh Nym to show up), so that's why I kind of ruled out the Song being rediscovered... but still, something might be up with the Tinkers.  And you're right, to my knowledge we've never seen any Aiel tinkers, although Rand ran into a 'lost' Aiel in Far Madding in the streets. 

 

I think it's Shara, but could be Tinkers.  All the other proposals relate to things that have been talked to death, or are not things that qualify as 'ongoing' or continuing events. 

 

But really, aside from the Song, what relevance could the Tinkers really have?  In the 4th Age I see them making a big comeback.. but during the Last Battle??  Not so much.

 

agreed. now what is all this about the Tinkers writing something in blood for mat to see?

 

LoC, Chapter 22, Mat and the Band find a massacred group of Tinkers, who wrote "Tell the Dragon Reborn" in blood. He thinks to himself, "Tell the Dragon Reborn what? That a bunch of unfortunate tinkers were slaughtered?" or something like that (don't have the books right here with me). Then he doesn't think of it again. It's the same chapter where Mat meets Olver.

 

We know the Tinkers have proven to be accurate bearers of prophecy before (Eye of the World and all).

 

Other thoughts:

 

I'm pretty sure the connection of the Dragon Reborn to the land is out as far as the "unnoticed" thing goes, especially since it's 1)been pointed out as early as Rand's dream of Thom in TEoTW, and 2)the food spoiling in Bandar Eban in reaction to Rand's mood was such a dead giveaway that BS has already confessed its cause.

 

The Blight retreating 2 miles or more unexpectedly in TSR -- now that was odd. I always thought that had something to do with Rand using Callandor during the attack on the Stone. of course, it's apparently advanced again by TGS.

 

Oh, and yes, Moiraine said that Avendesora was still alive.

[Ashamandragoran]

Not sure if this is the unoticed thing, but for the Aelfin, here is what I think:

 

The game of snakes and foxes begins with a rhyme, "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind."

 

Snakes can sense radiated heat using something like infrared vision to catch pray, an intense heat (fire) will blind them of where the pray is.

 

Aludra's matches are going to come in handy for Mat. He will use them to light a fire and blind the snake people.

 

I'm sure Thom's musical skills will come in handy for the dazzling part.

 

 

there will be some foxy people in there with the snakes...

 

your point?

 

The rhyme is clearly important as RJ mentions it repeatedly. I'm sure iron and courage will play a part in Mat's upcoming adventure. I thought it worth mentioning that IMO, Aludra's matches fit in nicely with the fire part of the rhyme.

 

I don't think this is the BIG thing we are missing, but I think whatever that big thing is, its related to Mat's adventure to save Moiraine

[random_jak]

 

I think you've gotten the wrong idea.  She gives the cipher to Egwene along with the book containing all the information about the BA.  and i REALLY don't think she just killed herself to set them on the wrong path... while actually giving over the REAL names of the BA (they were real names because those on the list were either tested with the oath rod or fled the tower).  Why would the DO want all his little minions in the WT to be ousted?

 

As for a picture book, either there are pictures in the book she gave egwene, or else it isn't important.  What IS important is who she gave the rest of those letters to, and what they contained

 

You talk like you know what the would and would not do.    That is something that we just don't know.   The proof that we don't really know what the DO is up to is obvious in the fact that the Access Key was stored in the same place that Caddy put the Domination Band, but the DO did not have his agents take that when the took the Collar.    The DO obviously wanted Rand to keep the key.   As I said before - if the DO will sacrifice his Forsaken for his cause - he will surely sacrifice some of his BA.

 

 

I haven't posted here before really, so hey everyone

 

I'd just like to point out in response to this that, whilst yes what you're saying is a logical possibility, i think you just have to remember that BS/RJ are really trying to bring the series to a close now. They're trying to end as many plots and subplots as possible, so i think it's maybe looking into things in a bit too much detail to say that the whole Verin thing may NOT be her story resolved.

 

It's good that people like to look into the books in so much detail, but in reality there aren't enough books or time left to keep faffing around with Verin!