The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Dreamwalker]

Until I see something proving me otherwise, I'll continue to assume that the fire juggler is Owayn.

Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the future, since Owyn died before the series began.  Also, Min doesn't have viewings about things that aren't important, so she wouldn't have a viewing about Lan just visiting the ruined towers.  

 

However, Owayn is the driving force behind all of Thom's actions at that point in the story (his choice to try to protect the boys from AS, for example), so he definitely is influencing the future - it could also mean that Thom is going to avenge Owayn, or something like that. A lot of her viewings are figurative (like Perrin with the falcon and hawk, or colored auras) so I don't think it necessarily means that the significance of the viewing was that Thom will literally be with a guy juggling fire at some time in the future. Similarly, the viewings of Lan could be showing his motivations - the seven towers, the baby with the sword - are things that are currently, as of tGS determining his destiny. They are the reason behind his private war with the Blight that is driving him to ride to Tarwin's Gap, so they definitely are influencing his future.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I wish Thom would stop doing all this stuff in my name.

[Terez]

Even if it's figurative, it still more likely refers to Mat, and that would already be fulfilled, since Thom has been traipsing around with Mat, and Mat is already using firepower in battle.

[NetSlider]

Ok, not to be a complete d**c, but it seems I was gone for wwaaaayyyy tttttoooooo looooonnnngggg. Owayn???!!! I have to say that it takes big balloons to say that Owayn reaches from the grave and influences the world. Is he the DO than? :) Come on, after 6 months of discussion and that's what we get?

 

How about what Luckers finally stated openly, TAR and the "eyes". Why not discuss something like that. I'll start :)

I think that Rand will have to seal the prison through TAR. Creator is the witness he went into it in flash enough times. Furthermore, does anyone remember if he felt the "eyes" on him when we was in there in flash? Or does it only feels like someone's watching when one is not in flash. From what I remember Eg did not mention anything about being watched when she traveled in flash.

 

Any thoughts?

[saidarisnowtainted]

Can we please take this time to boil things down and list the theories (even by category?) that do not include the excluded topics?

 

my 2 cents:

 

1.  Taking the Vin reference literally--an overlooked item that a person either is always in contact with, e.g. jewelry, or otherwise always touches/pierces them.  Or is that a person has become dependant on touching and/or using.  I always thought Vin depended emotionally on her item and i thought that it was just a means to enrich her character.  Not that the item itself was addictive.  But the result of the contact had an effect.  off the top of my head:

  a.  foxhead medallion

  b.  the super girl's terangreal from the cache--i.e. Nyneave's jewelry (when was it found? i dont recall the timing and it may not be relevant)

  c.  The Dream Terangreal created by the supergirls?

 

 

2.  Movements--

  a.  Tinkers

  b.  Trollocs

  c.  The Blight Border

  d.  Aiel

  d.  the Borerlanders

 

3.  The Power

 a.  The DO first locking the weather leading to using the bowl of the winds.  The weather has become progressively horrible and may ultimately be the cause of the Storm that is currently gathering.  

b.  The supergirls’ superbomb nuke blast

c.  wards fading

d.  Saidar not always working properly.  Not common but its mentioned.

 

 

Now, can a more knowledgeable person take the reigns and add to this/correct me if the timing doesn’t fly or if anything is excluded?

 

[bronnt]

Ok, not to be a complete d**c, but it seems I was gone for wwaaaayyyy tttttoooooo looooonnnngggg. Owayn???!!! I have to say that it takes big balloons to say that Owayn reaches from the grave and influences the world. Is he the DO than? :) Come on, after 6 months of discussion and that's what we get?

 

You clearly misconstrued the entire context of the last several posts.  The question was whether the person juggling fire who appeared around Thom, in a vision by Min way back in EotW, might be Mat, or at least, someone doing something involved with fire during ToM.  I said that I don't think it's likely, and that I still think it was meant to refer to Owayn, regardless of what RJ might have said about Min's visions being about the future.

 

There's actually plenty of good ideas and discussions in this thread, including some discussions about Aiel Wise Ones, the Siswai'aman, how Trollocs and Myrdraal ended up at Imre STand, and the entire Borderlander situation.  It's probably not the best use of your time to go back and read through all of it, but Luckers did post a compilation sticky to attempt to encompass all the theories floating around.

[Knobs Mahoney]

Ok, not to be a complete d**c, but it seems I was gone for wwaaaayyyy tttttoooooo looooonnnngggg.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Please don't turn into a disc.

[NetSlider]

Ok, this is going to be a long one and I don't even state any of this is compeltely (or in any way my own) thoughts. More like a compolation of conclusions and ideas that I liked and agree with.

 

So, the eyes in TAR not only evil but I think are completely connected to DO and his prison.

 

It was stated that the prison is outside the pattern. Without getting into the whole discussion if the DO is part of the pattern or not and what implication it has, if the DO is outside the pattern and yet he still needs the way to touch the world he would need some sort of "tunnel" to to so (for the lack of a better anology). The TAR is very good candidate when it comes to DO having an ability to touch the world. It also a very great candidate as to how he was freed.

 

What do we know about DO being freed?

 

We know that Lanfear and one other freed the DO by trying to tap into "universal" source. We also know that Lanfear was always thought to claim TAR for her own from very early (from GH if i'm not mistaken, and def from DR). Now, considering that the DO's prison was outside the pattern from the previous age and that Lanfear was the one who freed him, it states to reason that the way she did it was through TAR. Why, you might ask? Well, let's think about this:

• The prison is outside the pattern and thus can not be touched through the pattern
  
• Further, the SG is not the place of the prison but more is a "closer" point to the prison from the "real world"
  
• It is also stated that for some reason one can not travel to SG in TAR but one can travel to SG in the "real world"
  
• The DO has a great ability granted to his "subject" in regards to TAR (Slayer)
  
• The Finns are in the TAR to some degree (we are not sure if they are evil or not but it was stated by Moirane not to mention DO when visiting and the Slayer enters it at will; Lanfear was freed from them though we not sure how)
  
• As stated before, Lanfear is "at home" in TAR just as Ishy was and other forsaken
  
• Wise Ones stated that entering in flash the TAR is "evil" or such
  
• TAR is connected to the world of the dead (the Dead Heroes of the Horn are housed there; they are not "good" or "evil" but will serve to anyone who blows the horn). We also know that the DO is the "master" of the dead
  
• We might go even as far as to say that the TAR "belongs" or at least "connected" to the DO more than the "light"
  

This is all that comes to mind for now, but there might be more points made about TAR.

 

Now, taking into account the above, think of this question: If the DO's prison is NOT in "our world" and is not really "connected" to our world, where exactly will Rand will seal the prison? Is there a "special" place in the world for that? Before you say SG, think about this, why did it not work the first time when LTT did it? Well, obviously because something was wrong and after there was the taint.

Now, think about this - where is the place that even BF does not hold its effects after being used? That's right, TAR! In TAR, when something is BF the event is not permanent. The question is - would the "backlash" against the male half would take effect if the sealing was done from TAR and would be reverse? Before you go "ah, but..." I admit that as far as "how" Rand even gets to SG to fight the last battle through TAR is unknown (after all, one can not travel to it in TAR), but where does it say that he MUST seal the DO prison in SG? It only states that his blood going to be on the black rock of the place. In any event, the digression on the taint and the re-sealing is something to consider.

 

Going back to the "physics" of TAR. There is definitely a LOT we don't know. For example, how was Birgitta pulled out in flash (she was basically reborn without...well, birth. Almost something DO did for the "dead" forsaken)? We also don't know to full extend how power works in TAR. For example, we know that when SuperGirls were in the Stone Eg was not able to influence the "real" things in the world, but people do die in it for real.

 

So, here comes the most intriguing part (IMPO):) When did Calandor actually listen Rand completely and without any problem? That's right, in TAR. Maybe it is arguable that it also listen during the Stone attack, it did not what he wanted with the dead girl. He also had to "look" for direction. But in TAR it was simply instinct, as if Calandor was meant to be used in DAR.Calandor is obviously the key to victory and I think thus might be connected to BUT. Maybe "three becoming one" has something to do with TAR even? This is something I'm still trying to put together in my own head so enough of this part for now. :)

 

Anyhow, let's hear it (I mean all the love and approval....right....:))

 

 

TOLD YOU I'M THE ULTIMATE "READ INTO THINGS" GUY! :D

[Hadilmir]

b.  The supergirls’ superbomb nuke blast

 

*Completely Opinionated Theory Alert*

 

From what we know of Gateways we can assume-

1. They are effectively wormholes that travel outside the Pattern at some point (Causing Trolloc death)

 

2. Gateways close fast, but not instantly

 

3. There is an instantaneous transfer of matter through the Gateway though this is irrelevant where the 'wormhole' leaves the Pattern since Time will obviously not follow the same rules

 

4. Air travels through Gateways while they are open

 

Therefor, a closing Gateway expels all matter, including air, from the inter-Pattern section before it is completely gone. When both ends of a Gateway are erased instantaneously, such as the super-weapon incident, then the wormhole compresses as it evaporates, but the matter (at this point air) still outside the Pattern cannot take this supernatural compression. At some point nuclear-fusion occurs, blasting the wormhole back to its former shape and forcing it back through the Pattern. There the energy is released back into the world, as seen with Elayne's Gateway explodes. So in truth, yes, it was in fact a nuclear explosion.

 

Still, there is no way this revelation could be the B©UT if you see the event the way I do, especially given quotes that tell us it is constant.

 

*End Completely Opinionated Theory Alert*

 

Also, well thought out NetSlider. I don't agree, but well thought out.  ;)

[NetSlider]

Ok, not to be a complete d**c, but it seems I was gone for wwaaaayyyy tttttoooooo looooonnnngggg.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Please don't turn into a disc.

HA HA, I like this one. Looking back, I did come out as a complete "disc" :)

[Random Man]

Im starting to think it might be something to do with Ishamaels death and reincarnation. Was it in Lord of Chaos that Moridin was introduced?

 

What about it do you think it is? Maybe Moridin isn't Ishy? Or where the body came from? Hey what is the description of Moridin by the way?

 

Moridin is as tall as Rand I think, with dark hair and blue eyes. You know when you get a feeling that clues have been dangled in front of your face? Well Ive always had that feeling about Moridin since he came back. And Ive had the same feeling about Taim. Aaaaand the same thing about Shaidar. I think the three are connected somehow, or that Moridin is at ;easy connected to Taim and Shaidar somehow. Im starting to wonder exactly what Shaidar is. I might start a thread about it.

 

There's a very sound theory over at the Thirteenth Depository suggesting that Taim is Moridin. The only real problem I see with it is how Moritaim could get around the effects of nausea brought on by channeling Saidin -- one would think that he would have to channel a lot if he's running the Black Tower and teaching all of his pets, and we don't see Rand stumbling about all the time from feeling it through the link.

 

Shaidar is probably what he appears to be -- the DO's avatar. 

[Ashaman Kovan]

A very sound theory suggesting Taim is Morridin...Can you provide a link to that?

[Orderofolde]

When did Rand begin to get sick when he channels?  Was it after wielding Callandor, or after sharing the CK statue with Asmodean?  I'm thinking that the BUT might be his growing sickness.  We now know that Callandor is flawed and not meant to be used by a man alone, he has to be in a circle with two women.  The voice and madness only seems to deepen from there, or is it from the warring wounds in his sides?  There just seems to be way too many loose ends that need tying up.

[Random Man]

A very sound theory suggesting Taim is Morridin...Can you provide a link to that?

 

Here:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html

 

It's touched upon in other places at the Thirteenth Depository. One of the most compelling connections I see is the connection between the Black Tower and Moridin's colors (red and black) and the Forsaken Shadow symbol at the Black Tower (fist with lightning bolts, at the BT done in gold). Additionally, Ishy draws parallels to Hitler, and Taim calls himself "The Leader" which is the literal translation of "Der Fuhrer."

 

As I said in my earlier post, the theory isn't without its problems, but it's pretty sound reasoning.

 

Rand starts getting sick after the encounter with Moridin in Shadar Logoth, when they link. There appears to be a connection with the sickness and Saidin.

[Orderofolde]

Another question leading to a clever revelation of my thoughts...Has Mat ever won against Olver when playing the Snakes and Foxes game?  Olver from what I remember always wins and plays it constantly.  This leads me to think that something with that compulsion people have said Noal is under will prevent him from going, leaving Olver the one that accompanies Mat and Thom into the Tower.  He also spoke with Birgitte about the tower and might remember other bits of her faded memories to help them.  

 

Also about Aludra's fire sticks, strikers, Light forbid we call them "Matches" this likely will play out as far as the Finns, enter with no fire, yet strike one and there's fire to blind them I think.  What are the other two things?  Iron or music to bind?  Maybe the music repository ter'angreal and a steel cap to protect Mat's thoughts while there?  Just my thoughts, but after the next book I expect people will be outside Brandon's house and lining the streets begging him to hurry and complete the last book!  

[Random Man]

Another question leading to a clever revelation of my thoughts...Has Mat ever won against Olver when playing the Snakes and Foxes game?  Olver from what I remember always wins and plays it constantly.  This leads me to think that something with that compulsion people have said Noal is under will prevent him from going, leaving Olver the one that accompanies Mat and Thom into the Tower.  He also spoke with Birgitte about the tower and might remember other bits of her faded memories to help them.  

 

Also about Aludra's fire sticks, strikers, Light forbid we call them "Matches" this likely will play out as far as the Finns, enter with no fire, yet strike one and there's fire to blind them I think.  What are the other two things?  Iron or music to bind?  Maybe the music repository ter'angreal and a steel cap to protect Mat's thoughts while there?  Just my thoughts, but after the next book I expect people will be outside Brandon's house and lining the streets begging him to hurry and complete the last book!  

 

No one wins in Snakes and Foxes. The players play against what's essentially an NPC.

 

It's hardly been secret that the majority of us already believe the firesticks will have a role to play in the TOG rescue. Online posters have suggested that for well over a decade now. Earlier someone suggested that the firesticks left behind with the circus might tie Valan Luca in with the TOG rescue as the "One other"(which would be the BUT).

[Ashaman Kovan]

No one wins unless they cheat actually.

[Sharaman]

A very sound theory suggesting Taim is Morridin...Can you provide a link to that?

 

Here:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html

 

It's touched upon in other places at the Thirteenth Depository. One of the most compelling connections I see is the connection between the Black Tower and Moridin's colors (red and black) and the Forsaken Shadow symbol at the Black Tower (fist with lightning bolts, at the BT done in gold). Additionally, Ishy draws parallels to Hitler, and Taim calls himself "The Leader" which is the literal translation of "Der Fuhrer."

 

As I said in my earlier post, the theory isn't without its problems, but it's pretty sound reasoning.

 

Rand starts getting sick after the encounter with Moridin in Shadar Logoth, when they link. There appears to be a connection with the sickness and Saidin.

 

Taim= Moridin is difficult to fly because of the apparent physical differences in size between the two guys and the fact that they've both been in situations where Mask of Mirrors breaks down.

Moridin is a lot taller and wider than Taim. 

Taim the first time we see him is touched by several Saldean swords, then by Rand when giving him the seal, and finally touches Flynn himself, reaching out to hold Flynn when testing the old man.

That means Taim's hand reach and torso length is what it seems to be

Moridin, when Rand meets him in Shadar Logoth, holds hands with Rand - again his arm-reach is what it seems to be.

So they're not the same person.

 

[Dida]

A very sound theory suggesting Taim is Morridin...Can you provide a link to that?

 

Here:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html

 

It's touched upon in other places at the Thirteenth Depository. One of the most compelling connections I see is the connection between the Black Tower and Moridin's colors (red and black) and the Forsaken Shadow symbol at the Black Tower (fist with lightning bolts, at the BT done in gold). Additionally, Ishy draws parallels to Hitler, and Taim calls himself "The Leader" which is the literal translation of "Der Fuhrer."

 

As I said in my earlier post, the theory isn't without its problems, but it's pretty sound reasoning.

 

Rand starts getting sick after the encounter with Moridin in Shadar Logoth, when they link. There appears to be a connection with the sickness and Saidin.

 

Taim= Moridin is difficult to fly because of the apparent physical differences in size between the two guys and the fact that they've both been in situations where Mask of Mirrors breaks down.

Moridin is a lot taller and wider than Taim. 

Taim the first time we see him is touched by several Saldean swords, then by Rand when giving him the seal, and finally touches Flynn himself, reaching out to hold Flynn when testing the old man.

That means Taim's hand reach and torso length is what it seems to be

Moridin, when Rand meets him in Shadar Logoth, holds hands with Rand - again his arm-reach is what it seems to be.

So they're not the same person.

 

 

  Agreed, Moridin is not Taim.  Rand would have reactioned differently to Moridin in tGS book, if he was physically Taim.  Secondly, Taim wanted to learned where Rand was located in KoD, while Moridin already knew how to find Rand's location every time Rand channels the Saidin. Thirdly, if they were the same person, why would Moridin and Taim give different commands to Raefar Kisman in Winter's Heart, Chapter 22?  Kisman point of view said Demandred, Moridin, and Taim seemed totally clueless of the others mens orders too. 

 

Source: eWoT website, entry under Raefar Kisman

 

Taim orders Kisman to kill Rand. Then Demandred orders Kisman to kill Rand. Finally, Moridin orders Kisman to kill Rand if he must, but first priority is to retrieve Rand's possessions. Kisman and Rochaid meet in Far Madding and plan a trap for Rand. After the trap fails, Padan Fain kills Kisman. (WH,Ch22)

[FarShainMael]

Rand starts getting sick after the encounter with Moridin in Shadar Logoth, when they link. There appears to be a connection with the sickness and Saidin.

 

In fact there's an earlier instance of this nausea, in LoC Ch 21, 'To Shadar Logoth'. Rand has Travelled to SL with the Ogier trio Haman, Covril, and Erith, on the way to dropping them off at Emond's Field to 'rescue' Loial. His purpose is to seal off the SL Waygate, for which he needs Ogier help to locate it. They arrive at the Gate. Then:

 

'He began weaving saidin around the Waygate, using all Five Powers.. From the first flow he channelled, the taint seemed to pulse inside him, a slowly building vibration. It must have been the evil in SL itself, a resonance of evil to evil. Even in the Void he felt dizzy from those reverberations, as though the world swung beneath his feet in time to them; they made him want to vomit up everything he had ever eaten.'

 

This was before Rand had got his wound from Fain/Mordeth's ruby dagger, which is full of the SL evil, but before he 'links' with Moridin, and before he cleanses saidin; but he still has his wound from Ba'alzamon, which seems to retain the taint.

 

So there are two things happening here. Yes there's a link with saidin, or perhaps the taint on it, in the 'resonance' between the two evils. However, when Fain slashes him Flinn saves his life by Healing him and 'sealing away' the two wounds. At this point, Rand is able to use the OP without nausea, suggesting that Flinn's seal is preventing the resonance. The saidin-induced nausea does indeed cut in later, after his 'link' with Moridin, which may have opened a path for Rand to access the TP. This link seems to have weakened Flinn's seal, allowing saidin to induce the resonance again.

 

[Terez]

Ohh, I like that theory. Of course, I like any alternate theory to widely-accepted ones.  This one doesn't have much implication to add, but I still like it.

[FarShainMael]

*bow*   ;)

 

Regarding implications.. Brandon has intimated that Rand's ability/permission to access the TP will come into play in some way in ToM /AMoL. Some have suggested that the 'blood on the rocks of SG' may come from Rand's wounds splitting open. If Rand tries to channel the TP at SG - which would have to be with the DO's aid so he's not fried instantly - perhaps Flinn's seal will break, and Rand will bleed..

 

[Terez]

As for that, my guess is that he'll be tempted to use it again.  That would fit with the foreshadowing given in the scene where he did use it.  And I tend to be suspect of anything that Rand believes concerning Shayol Ghul, and he assumes that his blood will be shed on the rocks from the wounds.  I think his wounds will be healed by the time he gets there.

[FarShainMael]

Leaving SG aside for now, what are your thoughts on the possibility that Rand using the TP would break Flinn's seal? What would happen to Rand then? Would the wounds break open, or would Rand just collapse, in as much danger of death as he was when Fain slashed at him? (Not going anywhere in particular with this, just musing.)

[Terez]

Well, he's already used it once, and there was no sign of anything like that.  I think Gawyn will break them open.  It's an Arthurian parallel; Gawain died of an old unhealed wound just before the Battle of Camlann, so it makes sense to me.