The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[myn0s]

Weren't the Trollocs in the stone of tear brought in by the trading ships? 

[DemandredFO]

Yeah some were brought in by trading ships, others were brought by wagon

[Sharaman]

I'm not sure if it's been spelled out this way or not, but I know I've seen pieces of this in the 200+ pages on this thread.

 

Perhaps it is Ogier Darkfriends. Think about it--Trollocs started showing up out of no-where in TSR (inside the Stone of Tear), and again at Imre stand in the Aiel Waste. Perhaps they are helping Trollocs to travel through The Ways via orders of the Forsaken? This would definitely be a big "gotcha" moment in the next book if it were true. Not many people suspect Ogier of being Darkfriends...

 

While Ogier could certainly be Friends of the Dark do you have any little hints in Book IV - VI or elsewhere in the series, that they are? And that the Friendliness so to speak, has been going on.

 

[Knobs Mahoney]

I don't think the book ever comes right and spells it out. But I can't wrap my head around how so many Trollocs could slips down through the Borderlands undetected if they weren't using the ways. We already know they can't use gates, and I'd imagine there isn't much maritime traffic to the Blight.

 

The Trollocs refer to the Aiel Waste as the "Dying Ground", so I can't imagine they'd be able to slip down through the Waste to Imre Stand without encountering some opposition from the Aiel. That pretty much leaves the Ways, and even the Forsaken wouldn't be as familiar with the Ways as the Ogier would be because the Ways were grown in the days of the Breaking when they were all asleep.

[Crael123]

ogier dfs.... wow

[Sharaman]

I don't think the book ever comes right and spells it out. But I can't wrap my head around how so many Trollocs could slips down through the Borderlands undetected if they weren't using the ways. We already know they can't use gates, and I'd imagine there isn't much maritime traffic to the Blight.

 

The Trollocs refer to the Aiel Waste as the "Dying Ground", so I can't imagine they'd be able to slip down through the Waste to Imre Stand without encountering some opposition from the Aiel. That pretty much leaves the Ways, and even the Forsaken wouldn't be as familiar with the Ways as the Ogier would be because the Ways were grown in the days of the Breaking when they were all asleep.

 

We know the trollocs and fades use the Ways - but they've been doing so since the Hundred Years War. The Fades know how to read the Way road-signs - they don't need Ogier guides. In fact, if you recall Liandrin's trip in TGH, the Shadow seems to train its servants in using the Ways since Liandrin knew plenty about it.

Also note that very few Ogier are out of the steddings and unaccounted for, at any given time. So it wouldn't be that easy.

 

 

[Hadilmir]

The Trollocs refer to the Aiel Waste as the "Dying Ground", so I can't imagine they'd be able to slip down through the Waste to Imre Stand without encountering some opposition from the Aiel. That pretty much leaves the Ways, and even the Forsaken wouldn't be as familiar with the Ways as the Ogier would be because the Ways were grown in the days of the Breaking when they were all asleep.

They must've done it somehow though, because the nearest Waygate to Imre Stand is probably Yontiang, by Kinslayer's Dagger. That's still a long ways to go through the Waste because, correct me if I'm wrong, Cold Rocks Hold is in the eastern half of the Waste. So, it might actually have been shorter to go down from the Blight.

 

Also, there is no mention of shadowspawn using the Ways prior to events in EotW, and I'm thinking that has something to do with Ishmael teaching the Myrddraal (and Fain) how to navigate them. Don't forget that Ishmael/Moridin knows a lot more than we give him credit for, and he had plenty of time to learn about the Ways during his multiple 40 year vacations.

 

*Sharaman, how certain are you about the use of the Ways in the Hundred Years War? I must've missed that somewhere...

[Knobs Mahoney]

It's talked about in one of the first three books...they mention that Trollocs are terrified of the Ways because an army of them got trapped there one time by the Machin Shin.

[Sharaman]

@Hadilmir not certain but I seem to remember a reference Ishamel made to flooding the world with his trollocs during the Trolloc Wars and assumed that meant they used the Ways since there was Trolloc armies deep South of the Blight.

In any event, we have seen trollocs and Fades in the Ways many times since EotW, without any Ogier assistance.

So the Shadow using the Ways is too thin to deduce the existence of Ogier DFs.

The attacks in the Waste are easier to explain if you assume Aiel DFs  - local Aiel who helped them to slip past Aiel. There are no Waygates in the Waste so wherever the trollocs came from, they'd have to foot-slog past Aiel at some stage.

 

 

[Hadilmir]

It's talked about in one of the first three books...they mention that Trollocs are terrified of the Ways because an army of them got trapped there one time by the Machin Shin.

 

That's sort of impossible... Machin Shin wasn't lethal until the War of the Hundred Years. No Trolloc army has made it south of the borderlands since Hawkwing pushed them back, before the Hundred Years War. You're thinking of Mashadar from Shadar Logoth.

 

Sharaman, I agree with the Aiel DF's part, but I still can't find anything about shadowspawn and the Ways. The Ways were still peaceful up til the War of the Hundred Years, and the traps against shadowspawn should have still been effective until then since the Ways were corrupted 1000 years after the Trolloc Wars.

[Sharaman]

It's talked about in one of the first three books...they mention that Trollocs are terrified of the Ways because an army of them got trapped there one time by the Machin Shin.

That's sort of impossible... Machin Shin wasn't lethal until the War of the Hundred Years. No Trolloc army has made it south of the borderlands since Hawkwing pushed them back, before the Hundred Years War. You're thinking of Mashadar from Shadar Logoth.

Yes - the Ways started going bad around 300-400 years ago. So your timeline is approx correct.

 

Sharaman, I agree with the Aiel DF's part, but I still can't find anything about shadowspawn and the Ways. The Ways were still peaceful up til the War of the Hundred Years, and the traps against shadowspawn should have still been effective until then since the Ways were corrupted 1000 years after the Trolloc Wars.

 

I may be mixing up references or making a wrong assumption on the basis of that 1/2-recalled Ishamel statement.

Don't have time to chase this and you're probably correct 

 

 

[Samuel]

Okay guys, here is an idea.

 

I haven't read through the (massive) entirety of this thread, so forgive me if the idea has already been discussed to death. I would appreciate it, if the point HAS been discussed to death, if someone could tell me the page numbers of the thread where it was discussed, so I can look over them?

 

I think Rand's schools are the overlooked thing.

 

They start in book five or six. They aren't in the list of things that the first post of this thread confirms as untrue (thanks for dashing our hopes Brandon!). They have the potential to be a massive development in the final stage of the series.

 

Remember the steam-horse? That's potentially massive. Who knows what else the schools are producing?

 

I doubt it's weapons, or at least gunpowder-based weapons because Mat and Aludra have those covered. Perhaps it still is some sort of weapon. But I think not, because Rand built these to be something preserving and creative, not destructive (to put it in Brandon terms, the schools are of Preservation, not Ruin ;) ).

 

Just a theory guys, but I think Rand's schools would be a satisfactory answer to the "overlooked" mystery. Who knows what will become of them!

 

Thoughts?

[birtikidis]

what page is the list on anyway?

[Mordaunt]

More apologies if this also has been done to death, but without reading all this I can't be sure.

 

I believe the big unnoticed thing is Rand's attitude/spiritual wellbeing and its direct effect on the world. The "hardenning" begins in book 4, and goes into overdrive in book 6. The world starts going haywire during this period. The biggest pointer to this in my opinion is the ray of sunshine that breaks through the clouds at the end of TGS when Rand starts laughing and being slightly happier.

[Orderofolde]

@Hadilmir, they wouldn't need to travel south, because of the waygate at Malkier.  It's mentioned somewhere in the books that that is where they enter, somewhere around where Perrin has to close the Manatheran waygate I think.

[chuckievi]

@Hadilmir not certain but I seem to remember a reference Ishamel made to flooding the world with his trollocs during the Trolloc Wars and assumed that meant they used the Ways since there was Trolloc armies deep South of the Blight.

In any event, we have seen trollocs and Fades in the Ways many times since EotW, without any Ogier assistance.

So the Shadow using the Ways is too thin to deduce the existence of Ogier DFs.

The attacks in the Waste are easier to explain if you assume Aiel DFs  - local Aiel who helped them to slip past Aiel. There are no Waygates in the Waste so wherever the trollocs came from, they'd have to foot-slog past Aiel at some stage.

 

 

 

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q:  Why can't Ogier channel the One Power?

 

RJ:  Why can't fish sing? Why can't sparrows do the tango? Why can't I figure my own income tax? I'd really like to know the answer to that last one!

 

Q:  Can they be Darkfriends?

 

RJ:  Of course

 

 

See above.  :D

[Orderofolde]

Something that fits the bill perfectly would be Laras.  I think she entered in the right timeframe, helped Min with her lady-like dress, hair, and makeup, but has progressed over time to breaking Siuan and Leanna out with Min to escape, doing it only for Min iirc, then progresses through the book as a fair person who won't tolerate Egwene being picked on, then has just the right poison for Verin, AND a secret hidey-hole in the kitchens?  She's more than a cook, she laments of her youth and Min can't imagine her thin and messing with powders and lip color.  Not stout Laras with that scepter of a wooden spoon and her immaculate apron.  Something is there, the right timeline and it progresses.  

 

It can really be so many things, so many people, any charachter almost; Matt suddenly laying out the battle plans for Couladin and Cairihen with newfound memories, Mat and the dice suddenly start up, and in the storeroom in the White Tower there were a set of dice linked in the Ter'Angreal storage area that aren't mentioned again in the room later, and good old tricksy Black Ajah Verin helping to "Heal" Mat... In the sheer myriad of possibilities it is no wonder that we all missed the "Unnoticed thing" and Brandon did as well until he saw RJ's notes and had a "Whoa..." moment.

 

 

[StefanR]

Something that fits the bill perfectly would be Laras.  I think she entered in the right timeframe, helped Min with her lady-like dress, hair, and makeup, but has progressed over time to breaking Siuan and Leanna out with Min to escape, doing it only for Min iirc, then progresses through the book as a fair person who won't tolerate Egwene being picked on, then has just the right poison for Verin, AND a secret hidey-hole in the kitchens?  She's more than a cook, she laments of her youth and Min can't imagine her thin and messing with powders and lip color.  Not stout Laras with that scepter of a wooden spoon and her immaculate apron.  Something is there, the right timeline and it progresses.  

 

It can really be so many things, so many people, any charachter almost; Matt suddenly laying out the battle plans for Couladin and Cairihen with newfound memories, Mat and the dice suddenly start up, and in the storeroom in the White Tower there were a set of dice linked in the Ter'Angreal storage area that aren't mentioned again in the room later, and good old tricksy Black Ajah Verin helping to "Heal" Mat... In the sheer myriad of possibilities it is no wonder that we all missed the "Unnoticed thing" and Brandon did as well until he saw RJ's notes and had a "Whoa..." moment.

 

 

 

The dice ter angreal weren't connected to Mat at all, RJ has told us this

[Netizen]

Maiden handtalk.

 

Yep, that's it. Sometime in TOM Maidens will start flashing their fingers about and reveal that they are actually a secret society of "killing you cos we love you" types. Their mission is to prevent Rand from destroying the Aiel.

 

 

[Orderofolde]

Something that fits the bill perfectly would be Laras.  I think she entered in the right timeframe, helped Min with her lady-like dress, hair, and makeup, but has progressed over time to breaking Siuan and Leanna out with Min to escape, doing it only for Min iirc, then progresses through the book as a fair person who won't tolerate Egwene being picked on, then has just the right poison for Verin, AND a secret hidey-hole in the kitchens?  She's more than a cook, she laments of her youth and Min can't imagine her thin and messing with powders and lip color.  Not stout Laras with that scepter of a wooden spoon and her immaculate apron.  Something is there, the right timeline and it progresses.  

 

It can really be so many things, so many people, any charachter almost; Matt suddenly laying out the battle plans for Couladin and Cairihen with newfound memories, Mat and the dice suddenly start up, and in the storeroom in the White Tower there were a set of dice linked in the Ter'Angreal storage area that aren't mentioned again in the room later, and good old tricksy Black Ajah Verin helping to "Heal" Mat... In the sheer myriad of possibilities it is no wonder that we all missed the "Unnoticed thing" and Brandon did as well until he saw RJ's notes and had a "Whoa..." moment.

 

 

 

The dice ter angreal weren't connected to Mat at all, RJ has told us this

I didn't know.

[myn0s]

In an effort to find the BuT i've been re-reading books 4-6.  Came across a passage that may very well mean somthing big. 

 

Quote from book 4, chapter 9, when "Selene" visits Rand in the Stone: 

 

“I go where I wish to be.” She frowned at his face. “You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now.”

 

What can she see on his face?  How has Rand been marked?  Could this indicate some connection to the DO from way before Moridin was on screen?

[Sharaman]

Been discussed before in this thread.

[myn0s]

My bad :) I'll keep looking. 

 

Would you mind telling me what the outcome of that discussion was, or what page no.(s) it was on?

[Sharaman]

My bad :) I'll keep looking. 

 

Would you mind telling me what the outcome of that discussion was, or what page no.(s) it was on?

 

Opinions varied from Rand simply looking more mature, with harder eyes and lines on his face, to having a stye in his eye to bearing a Chosen mark.

You don't have outcomes on DM forums! :)

 

[FarShainMael]

I'm re-reading TSR ATM, and I'm noticing a few things.. (such as, why was Thom known as the 'Grey Fox'..) One of these items is what happens after Rand, Mat, and Moiraine have been through the Aelfinn gateway. It turns out that the Aelfinn speak what M describes as a 'rather harsh dialect' of the Old Tongue. She and Mat understood it - Mat so much so that he didn't even notice - but Rand needed an interpreter, a 'woman' who talked like 'an old book'. I wonder how accurate that translation was. It was certainly good enough that he was able to use the info to cleanse saidin; but what of the rest? In particular, the rather baffling bit about 'if you would live, you must die'? Perhaps the Aelfinn actually said, 'to live, you must meet Moridin', recalling that moridin translates as 'death'. Or there was some similar mistranslation, of question and/or answer.