The State of the Light and Dark Post tGS. (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Discuss.

[Muad Cheade]

To me: The Shadow is winning. The Light made some positive steps in TGS but they still need a knock-out punch, like RJ said.

[NegaWalker]

Well, the state of the Light is very grim right now, but there are /alot/ of armies gathering.

 

Even with the dismissal of the force by Rand, judging from the prologue and the power of the legend of Malkier, I think Lan's army is going to be freaking huge by the time he reaches the gap.

 

I expect the army the guys in Saldaea join up with will be Lan's, either that or they'll join Rodel's.

 

We have Elayne gathering the whole of Andor to her. And she can do it pretty fast with all her Gateways.

 

We have the White Tower, now whole, with the rebel's army in tact plus the majority of Elaida's army. That is now one super army of its own, along with all the Aes Sedai. They can move anywhere very quickly.

 

We still have a gigantic force of Aiel. The armies of the Aiel have taken some casualties and lost alot, but they still have a very large number.

 

We have the Band, which can reunite in Caemlyn entirely and join up with Elayne's armies. With the Band comes the power of the Crank and, soon enough, the power of the Dragons.

 

We have Perrin's army which will soon count larger with the addition of the White Cloaks and Perrin will have every last wolf in the world on his side. It is probably one of the smallest forces, but hopefully Aliandra can gather Gheladan to her to help. But it can and will get more from Berelain's land, I'm sure.

 

We have Rodel's army, which may or may not melt back to Arad Doman.

 

We have the Border Landers, maybe, who have an absolutely vast army down by Far Madding and have just been challenged. If Demandred has infiltrated them, there will be issues there. It might explain a great deal, that. But, the majority of them /will/ respond to Rand's challenge and calling them cowards. Because, frankly, they make no sense doing what they are doing. The explanation better be a good one.

 

We have the entire Seanchan empire's army as soon as some negotiation is reached. This will likely have to involve Mat coming with Rand.

 

So, we have all these armies gathering, plus even more. Legion of the Dragon. Those in the Black Tower who havn't turned to the Shadow.

 

Still, the Shadow has a VAST army, over 100 Dark Aes Sedai and who knows how many Asha'man to serve as Dreadlords.

 

The war itself is going to be freaking terrifying with all these armies on the move.

[Sestos]

I would just state that we may be overlooking the main battle, will not involve large armies. The Dark may not send huge armies the size used in the War of Power / Trolloc Wars. I believe that armies will meet, but I get the impression that the real battle with be a much smaller affair, so far the biggest battle in the book was Cairhien.

 

 

[NegaWalker]

Oh yes, the real battle will not be about Armies. But that doesn't mean the armies won't play a major part.

 

There is no reason the Dark won't send in all those Trollocs, Fades, and who knows what else flooding into the world.

 

Even if they go right past the armies to Shayol Ghul itself, the world behind them will burn. For what cost victory, when all the Trollocs and Fades in the blight roam across the world?

 

Its not like they'll die when the Dark One vanishes. Well, maybe the Fades will die, they are so linked to him. But the Trollocs? They'll still rage without any care in the world.

[Sentinel78]

Right now Rand has no idea how to fight the Last Battle, nor how to win the Last Battle.  We're given clues that Callandor will play a part in it, but Rand does not even know whether this best bet is to try to kill the DO (if possible, which I doubt), or reseal the DO, or just try to re-patch the Bore (probably not a good idea). 

 

Basically, Min's told him he needs to break the seals so he can "build" as in Herid Fel's note.  But how does he rebuild the DO's prison? 

 

I'm guessing he'll find out of course, Moiraine probably will come back with old knowledge from the last 3rd Age or something like that was recorded by the Aelfinn or Eelfinn, but without that knowledge the DO is capable of winning a war of attrition even without Shadowspawn armies..

 

So Light not doing good, but there's synergistic potential here and there for victory.

[Lambada]

Its not like they'll die when the Dark One vanishes. Well, maybe the Fades will die, they are so linked to him. But the Trollocs? They'll still rage without any care in the world.

 

Remember when a Fade dies any Trollocs attached to it also die in agony.

[blackjon]

personally in terms of armed might unless the blight has something very nasty in store the Light looks pretty damn strong...

 

of course all these armies should count for little...

[NegaWalker]

Who knows. Mat might even RECRUIT the Aelfin and the Eelfin. They seem to view our world with distain, but even they are effected by the Last Battle.

 

They might not be able to last long in our world... but they might be able to do something to help in the Last Battle. Perhaps phasing in, striking, and slipping back to their world... who knows.

[Thorn]

Well, there's one issue: Cadsuane seems to have left Callandor with some random sisters. Wheee, security!

[NegaWalker]

Thats true. Callandor needs to be regained. I expect Rand will unexile Cadsuane and maybe teach her not to be such a bully a little. Then, he can get Callandor back.

 

Assuming its not now being held by Black sisters. In which case, Cadsuane is even more of an idiot then I think she is.

[Lambada]

I think this is getting a little off topic IMHO.

Remember there is a ToM speculation thread and threads for the characters.

 

 

Overall the Light is looking better, but I think the problem now is that the Light characters might think they are in better shape than they are.

The Black Tower is still a huge bone of contention with every force for the Light. Depending on how much Taim has done to it, it may well be that the light forces now have a huge problem right between them that they don't know of. Egwene is midly concerned. Rand seems to have washed his hands of them. I daresay all these huge armies that are now running around will  have dark friends in them.

For the forces of the Light there needs to be more cleansing (not just of the BT, but of most armies) if they are going to be in 100% fitness.

And this doesn't even mention the division between the Seanchan and the rest of the Light.

 

So overall although a couple of individual groups are nwo brighter there are still a lot of groups which have black spots.

 

And the different groups still need to learn to trust and COMMUNICATE with each other. This is one of my most frustrating thoughts of WoT. But then again, it is what makes it so interesting.

[sheikh chilli]

if i were a darkfriend in randland i would seriously consider jumping ship. since book 1 we have seen,

 

the corruption of rand al thor end.

the purging of the black ajah

the white tower reunited under quite possibly one of the greatest amyrlins ever

forsaken beaten black and blue with many of them dead dead dead.

Saidin has been cleansed

the powerful nations under the forces of light.

the three taveren still kicking and alive

the whitecloaks under a competent general this time

the black tower is one step away from being purged just like it's white counterpart. It will be rent in firre and blood and sisters walk it's grounds. Enter Logain and co

Moiraine will be rescued.

 

where is the massive smack down from shaitan and his minions? at this rate the final battle will be a rout of epic proportions.

 

damn they actually put more of a fight in the war of power against the LTT and his forces.

 

i will say one thing that helped the shadow. rand in his infinite wisdom destroyed the most powerful sangreal. i guess he felt sorry for shaitan. har har

 

 

 

[jemron]

Who knows. Mat might even RECRUIT the Aelfin and the Eelfin. They seem to view our world with distain, but even they are effected by the Last Battle.

 

They might not be able to last long in our world... but they might be able to do something to help in the Last Battle. Perhaps phasing in, striking, and slipping back to their world... who knows.

 

I think the light and dark are pretty evenly balanced right now.  We don't know how much the Black Tower will tip the scales; however, I feel like getting Moiraine back is going to tip the scales majorly in favor of the Light.

 

I like the quote above, because I've been thinking that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn have something very valuable: knowledge of the past, present, and future.  While we don't understand at all what Moiraine has been experiencing while trapped, we do know that she's been there for a long time.  Yes, I know time works differently in Finnland, but could it be possible that Moiraine won't just be rescued, but that she'll become the true "Prophetess" of the Lord Dragon?  She may have learned valuable things about the future during her time with the Finns.  And this could be essential for the DR to win the Last Battle (as Min's viewing seems to indicate.)

[Muad Cheade]

Remember when a Fade dies any Trollocs attached to it also die in agony.

 

That is to provide the Myrdraal with greater control over the Trollocs. It is unlikely they would want to control the Trollocs if they're ravaging the countryside.

 

the corruption of rand al thor end.

We don't know that. In my view, it just shows that Rand knows what his purpose is, why he is doing it, and how he is supposed to do it (without the CK).

 

the purging of the black ajah

 

That helped yet at the same time, revealing the existence of the Black Ajah discredits the Aes Sedai.

 

the white tower reunited under quite possibly one of the greatest amyrlins ever

 

That is true but not everything is sunshine and rainbows. The Aes Sedai institution is hasn't been the most stable one recently, but there is promise. Don't forget that there is a Forsaken hidden in her midst.

 

forsaken beaten black and blue with many of them dead dead dead.

 

This is irrelevant. The Forsaken are just pawns to Moridin and the Dark One. You don't care if your tools get damaged as long as your job gets finished.

 

Saidin has been cleansed

 

Yes. Which helps Taim's men as much as it does Rand and Logain's.

 

the powerful nations under the forces of light.

 

Who are as likely to attack each other as the Shadow. The Seanchan vs. Rand, Seanchan vs. the White Tower, Seanchan vs. virtually everyone else, Rand vs. the Borderlanders, Black Tower vs. White Tower (possibly), White Tower vs. Rand (Rand thinks that is true). Meanwhile, the Shadow has hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of Shadowspawn about to invade.

 

the three taveren still kicking and alive

 

Yet far from each other instead of being close even when the Pattern is trying to force them back together (through the visions). All three are going through personal problems too.

 

the whitecloaks under a competent general this time

 

They were under a confident general in Pedron Niall. They were also under one at Falme yet they were still decimated by the Seanchan.

 

the black tower is one step away from being purged just like it's white counterpart. It will be rent in firre and blood and sisters walk it's grounds. Enter Logain and co

 

Yeah, except for the channelers in the Black Tower are living weapons unlike the Aes Sedai. And this time, the DarkFriends are lead by a cruel, cunning and very dangerous leader (Taim) who will be aware of the attempted purging.

 

Moiraine will be rescued.

 

Too speculative. She might not even be alive by the time Mat leaves. Min's viewing said Rand would fail without the help of a woman dead, not that that woman would be there to give it.

 

where is the massive smack down from shaitan and his minions? at this rate the final battle will be a rout of epic proportions.

 

Actally, the Dark One is preserving his own forces while the forces of the Light fight and weaken each other.

 

damn they actually put more of a fight in the war of power against the LTT and his forces.

 

That was when the population levels, technology, number of well-trained channelers was significantly greater. The Shadow is making due with what they have and they are still winning.

 

i will say one thing that helped the shadow. rand in his infinite wisdom destroyed the most powerful sangreal. i guess he felt sorry for shaitan. har har

 

There are other powerful ones as Lanfear spoke of them in TSR.

 

And I doubt that the Finns will help as they are so different from us that they might as well be evil (paraphrasing what Birgitte said). Very unlikely.

[jemron]

The "woman dead" that Min refers to has nothing to do with a viewing.  She just had a viewing that Rand would fail without Moiraine.  She thinks Moiraine is dead, so she says that Rand will fail without the help of a "dead woman."  This is her understanding that Moiraine is dead, and, in my opinion, not from her viewing.

 

Min also claims that only one of her viewings was false.  I assume it was the viewing that she told Moiraine way back in EotW when she saw her in Baerlone.  This, of course, is speculation, but I'm guessing Min told Moiraine she would marry Thom.

 

This is why, I think, Moiraine was so confident in TSR that she knew the face of the man that she would marry better than the super girls did.  Because it had been confirmed to her by Min who is never wrong.

 

Put these clues together, and we realize that Moiraine isn't dead; just definitely in a sticky situation where she needs rescuing.

[fisher80]

Maybe "clear the rubble" doesn't mean just break the seals, but to open the DO's prison completely? This is the only way Rand can remake the prison wholly, and maybe it's also the only way he can possibly "slay" the DO. This is what they made the Choedan Kal for in the AoL, to contain the DO after opening the prison, right?  But the female Aes Sedei wimped out so LT and the 100 C's had to do a patch-up job.

 

This is probably the only way the DO can win completely/break the wheel as well--if Rand frees him first to either remake the prison or fight it out (for some reason, the DO's only weakness seems to be that he can't affect his prison himself). And it seems only Rand/Dragon can accomplish this end-game, which is why Moridin and the DO usually don't wanna kill him. If Rand dies, it seems the DO can only achieve a partial victory, he may rule through the bore for a time but the pattern is still 'alive', and he will eventually get re-imprisoned by the next Dragon or other forces of the Light. The Dragon has to be living, open the prison, and face the DO, for either side to win completely. Thoughts?

 

Moiraine may help with this, Moridin might too, though to what end who knows. Something about all 3 ta'veren being there (is this the 3 being 1?) may be essential to Light's ultimate victory. Callandor I guess somehow involved. Since the Choedan Kal are toast now maybe it's the ta'varen that contain the DO, and Callandor that kills him???

 

 

[jemron]

Interesting that the 3 being 1 could be the ta'veren.  Maybe we're thinking about this too literally.  Maybe they'll be "one in purpose" similar to how some religions (including my own) believe that the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) are 3 distinct individual beings but they all are "one in purpose" (ie. to bring about the salvation of mankind).  Each member of the Godhead has a specific role to play, which is different for each, but they are one in "mind and purpose" just not literally 1 being.

 

Rand, Mat, and Perrin have to be unified in purpose or they will all lose the LB, I think.  Maybe this is all it really means?  Merging might not play into it.

[Sharaman]

There's massive lack of coordination on both sides.

Whichever side coordinates better, will win.

For the Light,

Rand needs to

1) Deal with the Seanchan,

2) Deal with the Borderlanders

3) Deal with Egwene

4) Deal with Taim - Logian

5) Make sure Perrin and Mat are onboard with all his plans and each other

6) Keep the Aiel from killing each other or their Wetland allies

7) Possibly link Rodel's forces with Lan's

8) Get the Ogiers onboard as a fighting force

9) Figure out how to use the sea-folk effectively

10) Either eliminate the CotL or get Galad onboard

 

He has 2-3 months to do all this at best before Lan triggers a confrontation at Tarwin's Gap.

He'll need to establish some sort of High Command, which oversees all this, and ensures stuff stays coordinated, once he's talked people into supporting him and put plans in motion.

 

For the GLoD

Moridin needs to

1) Ensure the Chosen don't work at cross purposes - tough!

2) Muster the spies and assassins of the Dark, including the BA remnants to best effect to infiltrate, compel and cause dissension in the forces of the Light

3) Figure out subsidiary commanders for his physical armies - Demandred can't manage everything, Messy and Halima are useless as military commanders,

 

My impression is Moridin has somewhat the easier job in terms of coordination since he has less units to oversee and he doesn't have to talk them into cooperation - he can crack the whip.

The flip side is that Rand can bring more in the way of overwhelming force to bear if he can get his act together. Rand also has more in the way of big battalions. Assuming Cadsuane gives him access to Callandor and Mat gets his cannons and the bulk of the Ashaman fight for the light and he can get his deals going with Egwene and the Seanchan, the Light will hold the edge in terms of OP.

One little detail  - where and what is the S'angreal that is more powerful than Callandor? Now that the CK access keys are destroyed, this could be important, since it's unaccounted-for. 

 

[Natural Born Killer]

Goodies: Two additional Chosen balefired. Rand finally turning a bit brighter at the end of the book. The White Tower United under al'Vere as the Watcher of the Seals. Egwene ordering the stilling and executing of 60 or so Black Ajah Sisters. Masema getting pwned by girl power.

 

Oh-noes: Lots of food getting ruined on sea folk ships and everywhere (not so small issue if you think about it, mass-starvation is never pretty) [off-hand remark: the sea folks have proven pretty damn useless for Rand]. The Sanchean top-dog burning all bridges towards Rand and towards the White Tower. The Black Tower works like a black hole for Aes Sedai. Two first-tier Chosen (Moridin and Demandred) and Four second-tier Chosen (Mesaana, Aran'gar, Moghedien and Cindy) still at large doing bad stuff. Eighty Black Aes Sedai running around the world instead of gathered in two clusters (Salidar, WT). The Dark One (or whatever it is that is making the pattern as stable as Mikado game) is now moving about entire floors of rooms in the white tower, and presumingly elsewhere.

 

I'm making the verdict that this book was either a draw or a slight gain for the light, but that the darkies still have the overall upper-hand. I mean... what is a one or two balefired chosen vs. mass-starvation coming up? And in case you are questioning - yes I do indeed believe we are gonna see a real articulated widespread famine across Randyland.

[stormcrow]

A famine will affect the forces of the Shadow too. Can't feed soldiers on prayers to the DO. The Trollocs also were not allowed to hunt deep into the borderlands since the beginning of LoC, and whatever people are captured are being used to make thakan'dar swords. Everyone is going to starve.

 

Rand is still running about because the forces of the Shadow are so inept. All of their plans have failed despite Rand's woolheadedness.

 

[Worm]

Just going to point out the cause of the famine :)

 

I was at the signing in Roseville, MN last night and asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead.  I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos.  After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the dark ones touch.  My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed? 

 

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand.  Roberet Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the stroy.  When people complained that only bad Ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an examples that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark.  The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.  .

[coteaz]

Read the prologue, Moridin is building blight resistant crops in the blight. That is food at least for the human followers, as for trollocs, they can eat anything, including each other, and we know they reproduce faster than humans.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

I think theres a third alternative, I think maybe the Light are winning some battles, but overall the Dark is winning the war. I also think the Dark have a BOATLOAD of horrible surprises up thier sleeve, and we havn't yet seen the true power of Moridin kickin it, let alone the Dark One himself affecting the world in any meaningful sense.

 

I am scared of what the next two books are going to do to Randland. I sense terrible, horrible things, massive casulties, and huge losses on the Light side.

 

TGS is strange in that, OVERALL the world gets a little worse, but we end it on a positive and two more forsaken balefired. It almost seems as if the true state of affairs is hidden from the reader a little.

[TheAngryDruid]

Though still behind, the Light did some nice catch-up work in TGS.

 

1) Rand averted disaster in turning too dark.

2) Egwene reunited the Tower, purged it (save for Mesaana?), and survived a Seanchan attack. The Tower stands.

3) Mat and Elayne are reunited in Caemlyn (offscreen), and presumably making Dragons for Aludra.

4) Perrin has united Morgase, Galad, and Company.

5) Verin's notes will have a huge effect in my opinion. THE most legendary Brown of all-time, no doubt.

6) The Seanchan have restored order to Altara, Amadicia, and Tarabon. While Rand has mostly done the same for Tear, Cairhein, and Illian. Elayne has done for Andor. Roederan/Talamanes have solidified Murandy, and Ghealdan with Alliandre and Perrin should be OK soon. Still, it appears only Arad Doman is really in the crapper, and even it took a step in the right direction. If the food stops spoiling with Rand's recovery, it could be OK as well. Plus maybe Rand will have a change of heart there. Or he'll let the Seanchan have it.

7) We are down 2 more Forsaken, and they aren't coming back.

8) Even though Tylee's view didn't carry the day, it is being spoken in Seanchan high circles.

 

Still, there is work to do, as the Seanchan and the Black Tower must be dealt with, and some trust has to be regained among the forces of Light (Rand, Egwene, Tuon, Borderlanders, Elayne, Mat, Lan, Perrin, Galad, Gawyn) so that they can cooperate more effectively.

 

Demandred's play will be huge (Shara or Black Tower).

 

Still, from my point of view, the Light did some serious catching up.

 

What plays does the Dark have?

 

1) The Black Tower (plus the fled Black Ajah)

2) Demandred's play (Shara, BT, Murandy, Borderlanders?)

3) The Moridin-Cyndane-Mogy trio is still at it, but mostly sowing dissention.

4) Aran'gar failed with the Rebels, I can't imagine a reward there, and maybe not enough time with Graendal to bear much fruit.

5) The Seanchan and Rand are still split.

6) The BT/WT problems could increase with the bonding/delegation issues, but not when Eggy/Rand turn their attention.

7) They have their mass of Shadowspawn, the Gholam, Slayer, and the new dreadlords (led by the BA and Taim). But seem to be running short on human armies under their control.

8) These Forsaken are gone and not coming back: Be'lal, Rahvin, Asmodean, Semirhage, Graendal.

9) These Forsaken also appear to be history: Sammael, Aginor/Osan'gar.

 

Sorry for the length, and the wandering nature.