Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[Otarin]

One thing that has always bugged me is the way that Verin seems to have special knowledge about the Karthenin (sp) cycle that no one else has. I know neither Moraine or Suian are scolars on the level of Verin but having lived their lives dedicated to finding the Dragon Reborn and helping him win the last battle they should probably be intimately familar with the cycle. 

 

Yet when Tylee meets Perrin for the first time she asks him in jest if he is the wolf king.  Way back when Moraine first learns about Perrin talking to wolves in TEoTW she is shaken.  Her exact quote was there was NOTHING written about this.  If the wolf king was in Randlands version of the cycle I think she could have perhaps put two and two together.  Lets see a blacksmith that can talk to wolves....oh yeah its the wolf king.  Duh.

 

I can only conclude she doesn't because the wolf king isn't in the Randland version.  Verin however knows enough about Perrin to know he will give up the axe in TSR.  My guess is Ishamael has corrupted both sets of prophecies not just the Seachan side as is the common belief on this board. Maybe Verrin as BA has access to the full uncorrupted cycle or maybe she is using Cordan Neidla notes from the World of Dreams to fill in the missing pieces. 

 

Either way her notes to the boys and whomever else should prove intresting.

 

 

[Balefire to da face!]

In the sequence I really really liked the way Brandon listed all the user theories about Verin and smashed them all, I am not sure if that was intentional but it was awesome.

 

1. Verin never held oath rod/Verin is very old theory

 

Egwene asks Verin you have never held the oath rod. She says something like even before your grandmother I have held oath rod.

 

2. Verin has removed her oaths.

 

Verin says something like yeah but it was not like how you think.

 

3. Verin is Black Ajah

 

To me even this was smashed by the author here. Everyone who pointed verin is Black ajah was kind of wrong because though she is black she is not.

 

It really feels great to read something and find out that there was one little thing you have not considered.

 

Definately.

 

Leave it to Jordan to take an obivious double agent plot and wrap it in so much mystery that it stands up to 15 years of hardcore fan scrutiny. Nothing is quite as satisfying as a puzzle that is headslappingly simple once you solve it/someone tells you the answer. And that's what Verin was. I mean....for goodness sake, she was at the DF social at the beginning of TGH and then mysteriously shows up in Fal Dara and shocks Suian and Moiraine to the core. It's so frickin simple now!!!

 

And yet no one saw it.....

[jemron]

One thing that has always bugged me is the way that Verin seems to have special knowledge about the Karthenin (sp) cycle that no one else has. I know neither Moraine or Suian are scolars on the level of Verin but having lived their lives dedicated to finding the Dragon Reborn and helping him win the last battle they should probably be intimately familar with the cycle. 

 

Yet when Tylee meets Perrin for the first time she asks him in jest if he is the wolf king.  Way back when Moraine first learns about Perrin talking to wolves in TEoTW she is shaken.  Her exact quote was there was NOTHING written about this.  If the wolf king was in Randlands version of the cycle I think she could have perhaps put two and two together.  Lets see a blacksmith that can talk to wolves....oh yeah its the wolf king.  Duh.

 

I can only conclude she doesn't because the wolf king isn't in the Randland version.  Verin however knows enough about Perrin to know he will give up the axe in TSR.  My guess is Ishamael has corrupted both sets of prophecies not just the Seachan side as is the common belief on this board. Maybe Verrin as BA has access to the full uncorrupted cycle or maybe she is using Cordan Neidla notes from the World of Dreams to fill in the missing pieces.   

 

Either way her notes to the boys and whomever else should prove intresting.

 

 

 

Wow.  That would be cool.  If in the notes Verin left were the real un-tampered-with prophecies.  I like this idea.

[Sharaman]

Apart from a full rendering of prophecies, dark and light, Verin can do a lot of things from beyond the grave.

I wonder if Mat's note includes instructions for Moiraine (maybe in an enclosed note) or instructions to help Mat to rescue Moiraine.

Let's see what else Verin may have done.

Verin obviously visited the TV store room (and failed to find the rod) - so she may have secreted the Horn of Valere somewhere near Caemlyn with instructions that will let Mat retrieve it on demand.

(In passing Talene Minly's example is enough to prove that it is possible to  remove the Dark Oaths with the oath rod – and as RJ said, it's also possible in TAR with a shadow rod. The rod only requires spirit to be  channeled and that can be done in TAR, dreams or wide awake.)

An odd omission is that she didn't bring up Coreanin's notes and dream devices with Egwene, but maybe those are noted and itemised somewhere in the notebooks she left behind and E hasn't got to that section yet.

She knows more about Slayer than she's let on, based on the evidence of TGH and TSR. So she may have left some instructions about him as well, probably for Perrin (who is capable of hunting him down in TAR) or maybe for Rand or Lan as blood relatives with an interest in revenge.

Don't forget, she was a high-ranked DF as well and could have set stuff in motion on the other side as well and as of now, it's possible that unsuspecting BA and DFs are carrying out her instructions.

Another thing that interests me - Logain's arrival and the Trolloc raid in KoD stampeded Verin into her final ride out of the manor house in Tear to wherever, and finally to TV and her last cuppa. What triggered it off?  They were all sitting quietly there when Logain reported in and then, the Trollocs raided and immediately after, she went into overdrive, rushing off with just a hastily-written note to Rand.

In all, given the body of knowledge Verin amassed, her legacy could influence actions on BOTH SIDES in a big way all through the rest of the series. 

 

[Sentinel78]

Why wouldn't Verin have removed her Oaths to the Dark One years earlier?  She could have accessed the Oath Rod at any point right, or at least figured out a way to gain access to it at some point.  She could then take any other oath on the Oath Rod so she wouldn't lose the agelessness-look.  Any reason this wouldn't have worked?  Maybe she figured if she tried it and it didn't work her oaths would have forced her to kill herself within an hour or something, I dunno.

[masty]

I don't understand why verin has to help Mat get the Horn. Egwene very well knows that Mat sounded the horn and it needs  to be used in Last battle. She will be glad to give the horn to Mat. If the tower was still split and Elaida was in power it makes sense that Mat could have some difficulties getting to horn but with Egwene I don't see a problem.

[Sharaman]

She wasn't sure if forswearing the oaths could be done with the oath rod at all - her remark to Egwene "The process of making those oaths was distinctive" admits as much. Also, it may well be that it cannot be done unaided - somebody else has to channel the spirit as occurred with Talene when she was tortured into submission, or with Galina for that matter. One of the oaths could be something like "I will not forswear these oaths" or some such that Verin couldn't slip around.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't understand why verin has to help Mat get the Horn. Egwene very well knows that Mat sounded the horn and it needs  to be used in Last battle. She will be glad to give the horn to Mat. If the tower was still split and Elaida was in power it makes sense that Mat could have some difficulties getting to horn but with Egwene I don't see a problem.

 

At the time Verin visits Egwene and passes along her information and journals, the Seanchan have not yet attacked.  Elaida is still the Amyrlin, and it appears that Egwene will not be in a position anytime soon, if ever, to help Mat get the Horn.

[Sharaman]

I don't understand why verin has to help Mat get the Horn. Egwene very well knows that Mat sounded the horn and it needs  to be used in Last battle. She will be glad to give the horn to Mat. If the tower was still split and Elaida was in power it makes sense that Mat could have some difficulties getting to horn but with Egwene I don't see a problem.

When Verin set stuff in motion Elaida was still the boss lady. So, she would probably have made provisions for the HoV with that situation in mind. Verin's not a forteller, she doesn't know Egwene will take over within 48 hours of her death.

[A Trite Pun]

I don't understand why verin has to help Mat get the Horn. Egwene very well knows that Mat sounded the horn and it needs  to be used in Last battle. She will be glad to give the horn to Mat. If the tower was still split and Elaida was in power it makes sense that Mat could have some difficulties getting to horn but with Egwene I don't see a problem.

When Verin set stuff in motion Elaida was still the boss lady. So, she would probably have made provisions for the HoV with that situation in mind. Verin's not a forteller, she doesn't know Egwene will take over within 48 hours of her death.

 

Hmmmm...the situation is too dangerous for the horn to be left lying around, but not too dangerous for Verin to leave Egwene her 80 years worth of work and key to stopping the BA?

[Balefire to da face!]

Hmmmm...the situation is too dangerous for the horn to be left lying around, but not too dangerous for Verin to leave Egwene her 80 years worth of work and key to stopping the BA?

 

When life gives you lemons, you make lemonade?

 

Dunno for sure, but Verin seemed to set things in motion with Mat that perhaps she could not stop. She may have shown up at the WT expecting Egwene to be safely in charge of the Rebel AS. We know that Verin is a smart, cunning lady(understatement of the century after what we just found out about her!) and she knows that Egwene is a Dreamer. Child's play for Verin to deduce that Egwene is in touch with the Rebel AS, and that if she hasn't already manufactured an escape, then Egwene chooses to stay where she is. Bottomline is that Verin could be reasonably sure that Egwene was in control of the situation.

 

We know that Verin knew her list wasn't 100%, and Egwene would have been one of the very few she knew that she could trust not to be BA. One would imagine that being in Verin's position, and seeing so much corruption from the inside that no one would have understood more then her that anyone she went to might have been Black Ajah. But not Egwene.

 

And like I said, she was probably under time constraints, so even if there was a better option out there who she could be sure is not BA from her actions(a sister like Cads) she couldn't have gotten to them in time.

 

Besides, does anyone think that Verin couldn't have immediately sensed which way the tide was turning on that one? By that time Elaida was already falling, she just hadn't hit the ground yet.

 

As a sidenote, do we know for a fact that Egwene knows Mat sounded the Horn? I thought only Verin, Suian, and Moiraine knew. Egwene was at Falme, but in no position to "see" Mat actually do the deed. Unless someone told her after the fact, there is no reason she would know. Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all loyal to each other to the point that they try to keep each others secrets, so I don't think Rand or Perrin would go blabbing. And what reason did Verin have to tell a novice something she wanted to keep close to the vest?

 

Is there latter scenes confirming that Egwene knows Mat blew the horn?

[coteaz]

None of the wonder girls know, because Brigitte says to mat that he is keeping his sounding of the horn secret from them.

[Sharaman]

None of the wonder girls know, because Brigitte says to mat that he is keeping his sounding of the horn secret from them.

All the wonder girls know - but Mat and Brigitte don't know that they know as of CoS - TDR makes that clear because Siuan discussed it in their presence.

Also, Sammael's fades knew about Mat when he sent them into the Stone - one addresses Mat as "Hornsounder". Other Chosen may not know though and Sammy is toast. However, if the knowledge has spread all the way down to Fades, it's safer to assume that it's widely known.

Digression: Is Mashadar another means of dying which blocks resurrection by the GLoD? Since Sammy has not been resurrected, we could assume so. 

[Luckers]

Quote from: coteaz on Today at 07:35:21 PM

None of the wonder girls know, because Brigitte says to mat that he is keeping his sounding of the horn secret from them.

 

All the wonder girls know - but Mat and Brigitte don't know that they know as of CoS - TDR makes that clear because Siuan discussed it in their presence.

 

Actually she doesn't. She discusses it with Verin, and later sends for the girls. They knew that the Horn was sounded, and that they brought it back from Falme, but not who sounded it.

[MatrixM]

One thing that has always bugged me is the way that Verin seems to have special knowledge about the Karthenin (sp) cycle that no one else has. I know neither Moraine or Suian are scolars on the level of Verin but having lived their lives dedicated to finding the Dragon Reborn and helping him win the last battle they should probably be intimately familar with the cycle. 

 

Yet when Tylee meets Perrin for the first time she asks him in jest if he is the wolf king.  Way back when Moraine first learns about Perrin talking to wolves in TEoTW she is shaken.  Her exact quote was there was NOTHING written about this.  If the wolf king was in Randlands version of the cycle I think she could have perhaps put two and two together.  Lets see a blacksmith that can talk to wolves....oh yeah its the wolf king.  Duh.

 

I can only conclude she doesn't because the wolf king isn't in the Randland version.  Verin however knows enough about Perrin to know he will give up the axe in TSR.  My guess is Ishamael has corrupted both sets of prophecies not just the Seachan side as is the common belief on this board. Maybe Verrin as BA has access to the full uncorrupted cycle or maybe she is using Cordan Neidla notes from the World of Dreams to fill in the missing pieces.   

 

Either way her notes to the boys and whomever else should prove intresting.

 

I've always thought that the early Blood corrupted the prophecies made before the founding of the seanchan (and perhaps after) to protect and glorify their empire. Also, the Seanchan prophecies probably have stuff (true stuff) that the mainland's don't and vice versa due to fortellings made after the expedition across the Aryth Ocean or in the Seanchan lands between the Breaking and establishment of the Empire.

 

[coteaz]

If im correct, mashadar steals peoples souls, so sammy's soul is somewhere inside mashadar.

[MatrixM]

Nvm. Just read that "The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can." in the tuon and seanchan thread.

[Luckers]

If im correct, mashadar steals peoples souls, so sammy's soul is somewhere inside mashadar.

 

We don't know for sure--its never said Mashadar steals souls, but I've always rather suspected it. That being said Mashadar was destroyed, and RJ has confirmed Sammael is dead and won't be coming back.

[coteaz]

I believe that it was RJ that said mashadar steals souls, but i dont have a quote though.

[Luckers]

Nah, your thinking of Machin Shin.

[Mr Ares]

Leave it to Jordan to take an obivious double agent plot and wrap it in so much mystery that it stands up to 15 years of hardcore fan scrutiny. Nothing is quite as satisfying as a puzzle that is headslappingly simple once you solve it/someone tells you the answer. And that's what Verin was. I mean....for goodness sake, she was at the DF social at the beginning of TGH and then mysteriously shows up in Fal Dara and shocks Suian and Moiraine to the core. It's so frickin simple now!!!

 

And yet no one saw it.....

Perhaps she was at the Darkfriend Social, but she arrived at Fal Dara with the Amyrlin. I don't recall either Siuan or Moiraine being "shocked to the core".

[WWWwombat]

Leave it to Jordan to take an obivious double agent plot and wrap it in so much mystery that it stands up to 15 years of hardcore fan scrutiny. Nothing is quite as satisfying as a puzzle that is headslappingly simple once you solve it/someone tells you the answer. And that's what Verin was. I mean....for goodness sake, she was at the DF social at the beginning of TGH and then mysteriously shows up in Fal Dara and shocks Suian and Moiraine to the core. It's so frickin simple now!!!

 

And yet no one saw it.....

Perhaps she was at the Darkfriend Social, but she arrived at Fal Dara with the Amyrlin. I don't recall either Siuan or Moiraine being "shocked to the core".

 

They were shocked enough to embrace saidar and blow their cover though.

[Luckers]

Leave it to Jordan to take an obivious double agent plot and wrap it in so much mystery that it stands up to 15 years of hardcore fan scrutiny. Nothing is quite as satisfying as a puzzle that is headslappingly simple once you solve it/someone tells you the answer. And that's what Verin was. I mean....for goodness sake, she was at the DF social at the beginning of TGH and then mysteriously shows up in Fal Dara and shocks Suian and Moiraine to the core. It's so frickin simple now!!!

 

And yet no one saw it.....

Perhaps she was at the Darkfriend Social, but she arrived at Fal Dara with the Amyrlin. I don't recall either Siuan or Moiraine being "shocked to the core".

 

They were shocked enough to embrace saidar and blow their cover though.

 

Not because she rocked up at Fal Dara--she came with the Amyrlin. They were perfectly aware of her presense, and disreguarded her.

 

Verin shocking them came when she pointed out that she'd realised that 'the man who channels' from the Dark Prophecy was one of the boys with Moiraine.

[WWWwombat]

Leave it to Jordan to take an obivious double agent plot and wrap it in so much mystery that it stands up to 15 years of hardcore fan scrutiny. Nothing is quite as satisfying as a puzzle that is headslappingly simple once you solve it/someone tells you the answer. And that's what Verin was. I mean....for goodness sake, she was at the DF social at the beginning of TGH and then mysteriously shows up in Fal Dara and shocks Suian and Moiraine to the core. It's so frickin simple now!!!

 

And yet no one saw it.....

Perhaps she was at the Darkfriend Social, but she arrived at Fal Dara with the Amyrlin. I don't recall either Siuan or Moiraine being "shocked to the core".

 

They were shocked enough to embrace saidar and blow their cover though.

 

Not because she rocked up at Fal Dara--she came with the Amyrlin. They were perfectly aware of her presense, and disreguarded her.

 

Verin shocking them came when she pointed out that she'd realised that 'the man who channels' from the Dark Prophecy was one of the boys with Moiraine.

Balefire never said it was the showing up did the shocking.

[Mr Ares]

Leave it to Jordan to take an obivious double agent plot and wrap it in so much mystery that it stands up to 15 years of hardcore fan scrutiny. Nothing is quite as satisfying as a puzzle that is headslappingly simple once you solve it/someone tells you the answer. And that's what Verin was. I mean....for goodness sake, she was at the DF social at the beginning of TGH and then mysteriously shows up in Fal Dara and shocks Suian and Moiraine to the core. It's so frickin simple now!!!

 

And yet no one saw it.....

Perhaps she was at the Darkfriend Social, but she arrived at Fal Dara with the Amyrlin. I don't recall either Siuan or Moiraine being "shocked to the core".

 

They were shocked enough to embrace saidar and blow their cover though.

 

Not because she rocked up at Fal Dara--she came with the Amyrlin. They were perfectly aware of her presense, and disreguarded her.

 

Verin shocking them came when she pointed out that she'd realised that 'the man who channels' from the Dark Prophecy was one of the boys with Moiraine.

Balefire never said it was the showing up did the shocking.

He did say she "mysteriously shows up", which she didn't, she came with the Amyrlin's party, and her shocking them to the core has nothing to do with her being BA.