Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[ed2funy]

And then beaten if they mess up or their masters had a bad day.

::)

[thewalrus777]

And then beaten if they mess up or their masters had a bad day.

::)

 

They would get beaten for looking at their "masters".

[ed2funy]

That is one of the reasons, yes.

[water_seeker]

And then beaten if they mess up or their masters had a bad day.

::)

 

They would get beaten for looking at their "masters".

 

Sounds like an average day at work to me.

[Sharaman]

A so'jhin who runs a Seanchan household surely handles accounts, does the weekly shopping, etc. In Turkey, India, China, etc, such senior slave-servants got paid salaries as well as getting unofficial chances to skim off the top. I'm assuming that a similar system exists in Seanchan. The Deathwatch and Seekers who are also slaves definitely get paid their soldier salaries.

 

[ed2funy]

We have so far not seen that stated, so sorry, but for now, I will take it as they do not get paid.

 

They are slaves and soldiers. That is why they get paid, yes.

The slaves who are just slaves don't get paid.

[Sharaman]

In Arabic, Persian, Chinese, and various Eastern cultures, the same word "slave" in translation also means an "indentured servant", that is somebody who usually has a hereditary post and can't quit the job, rather than simply a guy who is taken prisoner and driven into the cotton fields or galleys and forced to work and live at subsistence levels.

Read Egeanin's thoughts on So'jhin or Tuon on Selucia.

These are trusted subordinates, who handle money, manage business and household affairs.

They clearly have discretion to spend their masters/ mistress' cash.

Do you honestly think they don't get paid or can't spend money on themselves, which amounts to the same thing?

 

In India, an entire dynasty called the Slave Dynasty ruled for close to 200 years - they became emperors because the first guy was the trusted servant of the previous Sultan and he could buy off other claimants and hire a bigger army.

 

In Turkey, the Jannissaries (on whom the Death Watch are clearly based) were slaves of the Sultan. They were the best shock troops of the Othman Empire and they also ran the Turkish fire brigade service. They made more money than any other branch of the Imperial Ottoman service and owned more property across the Empire than anyone except the Eunuchs (who were also slaves).

 

Ditto China where RJ clearly "borrowed" the Ever Victorious Army from. 

 

 

[ed2funy]

I already agreed with the soldiers. :P

 

The other slaves (because there are a lot of slaves that are lower than the So'jhin like Selucia) don't get the benefits we see Selucia gets.

So, I concede some slaves (the honored type ones) probably get a lot more freedom, but not all.

[Sharaman]

Obviously there are degrees of freedom - Suroth will be treated like an animal.

So (possibly) will be captured prisoners of war and other criminals like Suroth.

They'll get shoved around and do the grunt work.

Given that RJ's borrowed many Seanchan society concepts from various Eastern civilisations, he has clearly defined the different degrees of slavery that existed in those societies.

The English word "slave" covers several entirely different segments of Seanchan society. Some of those segments are very powerful. Others are draft animals.

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

Suroth tried to overthrow the Empress (Daughter at the time, yet ready to take the throne), and she is a DF. She is a special case and she deserves it.

 

POW (though from modern standards it is criminal to torture/kill them) will most likely be treated like scum. Again, Suroth deserves it.

 

So, I have ten slaves, but two get to live in the house with nice bedroom (a butler and maid type perhaps), and the others sleep in a shack and do all the 'grunt work'.

Does that make slavery alright?

[Sharaman]

Of course, slavery and indentured labour are bad.

But there are degrees of bad.

In 21st century societies, we take criminals, put them in jail and make them work with no choices.

Slaves in Eastern societies were often criminals who were treated the same way, even more harshly, as miners or galley rowers.

That was also standard treatment for PoWs.

Big difference between being that sort of slave and somebody who is a respected senior councillor/ servant.

 

 

[thewalrus777]

Of course, slavery and indentured labour are bad.

But there are degrees of bad.

In 21st century societies, we take criminals, put them in jail and make them work with no choices.

Slaves in Eastern societies were often criminals who were treated the same way, even more harshly, as miners or galley rowers.

That was also standard treatment for PoWs.

Big difference between being that sort of slave and somebody who is a respected senior councillor/ servant.

 

 

 

Criminals aren't enslaved, they're imprisoned. They are there of their own actions.

Owning someone is still owning someone. Slavery. They are not indentured servants. They are bought and sold amongst the Blood.

[ed2funy]

*nods*

 

They are their because of their actions. (Suroth)

 

People who have no choice to be there (I still disagree with slavery in general, but Selucia isn't really all that bad off) are what make the Seanchan society bad.

[Sharaman]

Technically in a lot of societies, a criminal automatically became a slave - owned by the state or whoever ruled it, for at least a period. The Romans and the Turks for instance, handed out 4-6 year sentences in mines and on galleys. For that period, the criminal was a slave.

 

Again, historically, indentured servants are often linked to an estate - if a piece of land is sold or passed through somebody by inheritance, the indentured servants on the estate used to be transferred with the real estate. The Russians had this system for instance, and so did the major estates on Fiji, Mauritius, West Indies.

 

For a high level So'jhin, etc, the threat of being sold or executed would be technically there, but very unlikely to be invoked.

That why I said "no employment flexibility" - it's not upto the so'jhin to quit the job or refuse another assignment. Also they can apparently negotiate manumission - low level criminal-slaves can't.

 

 

[ed2funy]

I like that you keep referencing historical societies, but I am comparing them to modern societies that have learned more.

Most places (can't think of any to the contrary) slavery is illegal.

 

It is not just So'jhin and low-level crimnal slaves.

 

Not all of them are criminals. Some are born that way. Some are bought/sold.

[Sharaman]

The Seanchan obviously borrow elements from several Eastern and near-Eastern historical cultures. WoT is technologically and societally somewhere in the 15-16th century. Every society in WoT has obvious historical parallels though he mixes them up cleverly.

Aiel for instance are very like the Zulus in their fighting styles and abilities but they're white Celtic guys

Two Rivers folk uses the English/ Welsh long bow.

Malkieri women wear the bindi which is from India

Shienar has Samurai topknots and common bathing places like Japan

 

Many historical societies had specific rights of slaves in their laws. The Koran for instance, has several sections about the rights of slaves. Indian law has specific references to the rights of eunuchs and much of the land reform there, consisted of giving indentured labour the right to own the land they worked, or the crops they grew.

 

Modern societies no, both slavery and forcing PoWs to work are both banned in most places (under Hague and Geneva).

Even then, a criminal is forced to work but they're paid in most modern societies (though the payment is not released until the guy leaves jail).

Yes, the child of a slave/ indentured labour used to become a slave in historical times.

 

[ed2funy]

Yes, I get that RJ connected them to other societies from histories.

But, we are discussing how the Seanchan compare to our standards of today (as well as Randland) when dealing with slavery.

 

[Sharaman]

Standards of Randland sure. Why today? And where in terms of today?

Places like Albania, Somalia and Sudan are pretty bad and China, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Saudi are no great shakes either.

 

[ed2funy]

I like that you keep referencing historical societies, but I am comparing them to modern societies that have learned more.

 

::)

 

Because we live in today, not yesterday.

[Sharaman]

Well, until 125 years ago, people were being hanged for stealing hankies and the age of consent was 12,

Even in the WWII, slave labour was used.

Places like South Africa had near-slavery until early 1990s.

So what we consider "modern" is kind of recent.

 

 

[ed2funy]

I meant literally like today, the countries that know slavery is bad.

I am not talking about 50 years ago, or even 30.

 

Because we live in today, not yesterday.

[Sharaman]

Everyone knows slavery is bad - even the people who might profit from it.

So what? If you stand to make money doing something bad, there'll be people volunteering to do it.

 

[Diederichos]

Why are you comparing them to today? By that same respect, all of Randland live under brutal autocracies and repressive monarchies and there is not a single worthy society except for the Aiel. Compare them by their contemporaries not today's standards because this is clearly a historical setting.

[lordofsoup]

Humans have pretty much always had slaves, probably always will until someone gets control of south america and the caribean islands.  There probably slaves in the US too, but no one knows about them.  Anyway, the so'jin thing just proves even more that the seanchan are wrong and need to change and become more like this side of the ocean, they need to admit their wrong, and slavery is not a good thing, unfortunately they are too proud to do it. 

[metaphor]

The Seanchan themselves think that slavery is wrong, and one of the justification for taking damane is that if they didn't  channelers would control everyone and make them their slaves.