Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[lordofsoup]

Wow, what's up with all the schadenfraude? I think a lot of people are missing the point of the Ebou Dar scene. I mean, here Rand sees that the Seanchan are the best administrators around and have genuinely happy people and all of a sudden he'll start cracking the whip after noticing that and especially realizing the Tinkers are protected in Seanchan lands? There has to be some long term effect to that other than Veins of Gold.

 

And the kingdoms on this side of the Aryth were acting like children, can anyone really deny that even prior to when the series started? The very fact that the Whitecloaks could go to pretty much to any lands they wished and whip up fanaticism and cause trouble sorta confirmed it.

 

The strict hierarchy of the Seanchan won't go away, why should it, what harm has it caused to their society? Damane aside, Seanchan is a fairly peaceful, safe and secure land for all of its people from the highest levels to the lowest levels. Even Mat notices it in Winter's Heart when he's heading back from Aludra's place, Seanchan justice falls equally on the nobility or the da'covale, they're even-handed about it.

 

Also, Egwene getting the upper hand on Tuon is a repulsive thought. I could accept it from Nynaeve or even Cadsuane, but from Egwene or Elayne, ew.

Edit: There will be a positive solution to the Damane problem, but it will come most likely from Mat, Rand, Tylee and Setalle. And something tells me the cannons will be involved.

 

what the heck are u a nazi or something?  I say end the seanchan, and Mat is the person to do it

[Luckers]

I'm looking forward to the Seanchan dealing with the realities of damane and their preconceptions about channelers.

[Diederichos]

Wow, what's up with all the schadenfraude? I think a lot of people are missing the point of the Ebou Dar scene. I mean, here Rand sees that the Seanchan are the best administrators around and have genuinely happy people and all of a sudden he'll start cracking the whip after noticing that and especially realizing the Tinkers are protected in Seanchan lands? There has to be some long term effect to that other than Veins of Gold.

 

And the kingdoms on this side of the Aryth were acting like children, can anyone really deny that even prior to when the series started? The very fact that the Whitecloaks could go to pretty much to any lands they wished and whip up fanaticism and cause trouble sorta confirmed it.

 

The strict hierarchy of the Seanchan won't go away, why should it, what harm has it caused to their society? Damane aside, Seanchan is a fairly peaceful, safe and secure land for all of its people from the highest levels to the lowest levels. Even Mat notices it in Winter's Heart when he's heading back from Aludra's place, Seanchan justice falls equally on the nobility or the da'covale, they're even-handed about it.

 

Also, Egwene getting the upper hand on Tuon is a repulsive thought. I could accept it from Nynaeve or even Cadsuane, but from Egwene or Elayne, ew.

Edit: There will be a positive solution to the Damane problem, but it will come most likely from Mat, Rand, Tylee and Setalle. And something tells me the cannons will be involved.

 

what the heck are u a nazi or something?  I say end the seanchan, and Mat is the person to do it

 

Yes, that's exactly what I am. I am Nazi and therefore I support the Seanchan. Jeez.  ::)

[Thews Lerin]

pI've been reading the posts and a couple of things come to mind.. 

 

  First,regarding the line "Lightning his eye" doesn't anyone think that that line refers to Mat's innovative use of Aludra's dragons to offset the Damane.After all, in any stand-up fight or ambush he would have two great advantages: his dragons can kill from a farther distance than the Damane (He doesn't even really need to be able to see them to rain down lightning on their heads) and they aren't used to even up fights where their damane advantage is neutralized. Remember, they got clobbered when Rand took them on (Even if he thinks he lost..They sure don't!), think how they will react when they are getting blasted by something they can't even detect?

 

  As for the idea of Rand having to kneel before the Crystal Throne..We've all assumed that that means he is (or is not) going to kneel before  Fortuana. The line dosn't actually say that...All it says is that he's going to kneel before the throne...There's nothing in that line that says the  Empress has to be on the throne at the time. What if Rand has to kneel before the throne to bind Fortuana but not as an act of submission..He travels' to Seandar, grabs the throne, brings it back to Ebu Dar and in presenting it to the empres has to kneel.  There's no submission in that..

 

  I think that there's even been a discussion about that sort of thing in one of the earlier books. I believe it was Morraine who was telling Rand about how hard it is to understand what exactly the phophecies actually mean. Remeber how elaida mis-understood the one about the royal house of Andor being vital to winning the last battle..She thought it meant House Trankand when it really meant the earlier family..

 

  On another subject,regarding the Seachen acquiring the secret of "Traveling"  just because they can't lie doesn't mean that Elaida or the other captured Aes SEdai have to spill the secret to gathering..At least, not right away..All they have to do is refuse to speak on the subject..That isn't lying.

 

  Finally, I strongly suspect that Fortuana et al will be revealed as thinking that the raid was a disater..They lost suldam, damne, lots of soldiers, doezens of hard to replace raken and to'raken and for what? They might eventually get the secret of traveling, but they didn't get the weapon they were looking for (because no one besides  Elyane, Aviendha and Nynaeve know what happened), they revealed to the entire WT the danger they represent (so much for th element of surprise), the raid led to the re-unification of the WT and they were driven off by Aes Sedai weilding  an even more potent weapon.

 

  Oh, and they kindled the wrath of both the WT and Rand (at least once he realizes what they did)..You don't think that the WT is going to let that go do you..Especially when Joline, Edarra and Teslyn show up with Bethamin and  seta..What do you think will be the effect if at the next meeting, Rand brings those two along and reveals to the entire court that suldam can channel? That the Empress can channel?

 

Yeah, I want to be a fly on the wall at that one!

 

   tud

 

     

 

I like your thinking on most of this. Especially the last. They've been working on that for awhile. They sent sul'dam back several books ago. So far, nothing. So we'll see. The reality is that it's up to BS (working with RJ's notes). So all we can do is RAFO.

As far as learning how to Travel from Elaida - no problem. Given the pain that they can cause through the a'dam, I don't see Elaida holding out very long. We'll see, but it won't be a surprise if they do. It certainly increases Rand's need to make peace with them.

[USURP888]

Wow, what's up with all the schadenfraude? I think a lot of people are missing the point of the Ebou Dar scene. I mean, here Rand sees that the Seanchan are the best administrators around and have genuinely happy people and all of a sudden he'll start cracking the whip after noticing that and especially realizing the Tinkers are protected in Seanchan lands? There has to be some long term effect to that other than Veins of Gold.

 

And the kingdoms on this side of the Aryth were acting like children, can anyone really deny that even prior to when the series started? The very fact that the Whitecloaks could go to pretty much to any lands they wished and whip up fanaticism and cause trouble sorta confirmed it.

 

The strict hierarchy of the Seanchan won't go away, why should it, what harm has it caused to their society? Damane aside, Seanchan is a fairly peaceful, safe and secure land for all of its people from the highest levels to the lowest levels. Even Mat notices it in Winter's Heart when he's heading back from Aludra's place, Seanchan justice falls equally on the nobility or the da'covale, they're even-handed about it.

 

Also, Egwene getting the upper hand on Tuon is a repulsive thought. I could accept it from Nynaeve or even Cadsuane, but from Egwene or Elayne, ew.

Edit: There will be a positive solution to the Damane problem, but it will come most likely from Mat, Rand, Tylee and Setalle. And something tells me the cannons will be involved.

 

what the heck are u a nazi or something?  I say end the seanchan, and Mat is the person to do it

 

what exactly do you see in the way the whitecloaks, the lordlings and the Aes Sedai do things that make you say the seanchan's way are evil?  What is the measure of good leadership if not the quality of life of those ruled.  The people under the seanchan are happy with how the "invaders" are treating them, so much so that the tinkers have felt safe enough to contemplate ending their wanderings and just form villages under Seanchan protection. Good enough leadership that even Rand in his darkest moment recognized.

 

I can't say I like seeing women collared. But I also don't care to see women bullying people around and acting they have the right to rule just because they can wield the One power. I would like to see an end to Seanchan leashing women who can channel but I also wish to see an end to Aes Sedai feeling they can control and "guide" everyone just because they have the One power to back them up.  The One power doesn't come with wisdom to rule attached to it, that much is evident from the way most of the Aes Sedai has been potrayed throughout the whole series.

[ed2funy]

Slavery.

 

"Don't look at me, or I will beat you"

 

Damane.

"You can channel? You're a horrible person, but we're going to use you."

 

Whitecloaks = Seekers.

 

Nobody lies to a Seeker if they are smart. Nobody refuses to listen to them. No on hurts them. They can go anywhere they want.

 

They are EXACTLY the same. The Seekers just have permission from the Empire!

 

The justice system is good, that came from Hawkwing himself, but their social system is horrible.

 

They don't have necessarily good leadership. They have good policing troops, and good justice.

 

Meh, the Seanchan are not the answer to having a peaceful way of life.

 

Aes Sedai - "We will guide people, because we know what is best. We have the OP to back us up"

Seanchan - "People must follow everything we say, because we are right, and we know what to do. We control woman who use the OP to back us up."

 

Hmmm....not much difference.....

 

 

Anyways, sorry.....

Just needed to say that.

I don't know why people don't make the connections.

[USURP888]

@ed2funny

 

Hmmm....not much difference......that's exactly my point as well ed...hence my confusion how people consider seanchan "evil" thereby implying that the rulers of Randland are "good".

 

Besides the way they treat women who can channel, the seanchan system are better the any in Randland save perhaps the Aiel system. They promote fairness and merit based promotions. Commoners can become of the blood by virtue of their deeds (tylee, egeanin) and the blood can fall down due to their misdeeds (suroth).  Personally, I'd rather live is such a system rather than in a feudal system the way most of Randland practice. 

 

Like I said, I hope there is a resolution regarding the leashing of women. It's as wrong as Aes Sedai demanding respect just because they can channel.

[Blackhoof]

If the seanchan drop slavery, the leashing, the whole severe-punishments-for-looking-at-nobles thing, then they will be the perfect social and government system, one that all the wetlanders should adopt.

[ed2funy]

I agree on the fairness and merit based promotions (though by now, their royal bloodline must be  diluted).

I would like that part of their system, but not the da'covale.

If they had servants like every other country who were paid and could not be beaten for a whim, they would be a lot closer to being a more desirable society.

 

Not being rude, but you seem to focus on their leashing and slavery of channelers, but forgot all the others who are enslaved. :)

 

EDIT NEW: Pretty much.... :D

[thewalrus777]

I'd said it earlier of the Seanchan heirarchy and how arrogant they truly are. Just because your of "The Blood" no one else can look at you except others of "The Blood?" Gimme a break. I admit that they police and dispense justice extremely well, but look upon the people you rule as garbage, in a sense, that's just unacceptable to me. And at the moment leashing damane IS slavery. As a matter a fact "The Blood" are the ones who OWN damane. The Seanchan think they have everything right, but their system is just as flawed as "the kids" system they're trying to conquer. The Seanchan just need to compromise with Rand.

[ed2funy]

I also think one of their major flaws are the Seekers.

 

I think one of the Seanchan had a POV and said they find the Whitecloaks disgusting or something like that.

But the Seekers are the same!

[thewalrus777]

The Seekers are exactly the same thing, and they repulse me as well! I remember it being said in the books of The Whitecloaks, that their actions can sometimes be just as evil without being a DF. It seems to me the same could probably be said of Seekers.

[ed2funy]

*nods*

[Blackhoof]

It was egeanin and she said that the idea of the whitecloaks outraged her because they were a military organisation answerable only to itself, not a kingdom. Not because they could seize and question people at a whim.

[ed2funy]

It is in essence the same thing.

 

Even the Royal Family could be taken by the Seekers, but they better be right...

 

They also have refined their torture so that they don't draw blood of the Blood.....

 

SAME thing..just more organized, and accepted by people.

[Blackhoof]

Basically

[thewalrus777]

it's true. Seekers have authority to put ANYONE to the question, even "The Blood". But see there is one difference. With the Seanchan government backing them, if they want you, they get you. As with Whitecloaks, they only have real jurisdiction in Amadicia. They can't just go into foreign kingdoms and just start Questioning people without the expressed authority of those village and town leaders. Seekers have the authority everywhere in their homeland.

[ed2funy]

But they can incite people to kill them...or harass them

 

either way...that person is screwed!

But Whitecloaks have jurisdiction 'everywhere there is the Light, and where there is Shadow so they can root it out"...

or something....

 

In the end, the effect is the same....

[thewalrus777]

Yeah that sounds just like an excuse from them to do whatever they want. I mean, honestly, they would try and arrest you for DF if for some reason liked to read a lot. And that being just someone mentioning it in passing, about you to them. They are an unbelievable lot.

[clu7ch]

lol whitecloaks = my least favorite topic in the series. They're like Splenda brand sweetener. Mostly fluff.

[thewalrus777]

splenda sucks ass! give me sugar!

[ed2funy]

cane..need the pure sh*t!!!

[clu7ch]

kay seems we have a unamimous vote to strike the whitecloaks from the series. All we will have is a slight memory that something happened, but we will not know what. Pedron who? white cloaks you say? Yes i have a white  cloak, i wear it to bela-tine.

[thewalrus777]

i second the motion!

[clu7ch]

motion carried.