Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)

[Muad Cheade]

Mandevwin I thought of as a senior officer, not an actual independent commander, Reimon does as do the other commanders but Mat is always there with Mandevwin. Daerid is an actual general and a very competent one at that, add to this that he knows Mat personally. Mandevwin is some random character thrown together to add colour in KoD and never once does it say that he's a banner-general or anything. And who exactly says that Mandevwin is Talmanes' second, where does it say that in the books?

 

Reimon, Carlomin and the other nobles (excluding Talmanes) are commanders of squadrons of 500 men each (you see that in LoC). Mandevwin was in command of the 4,000 mounted crossbowmen that Talmanes brought. In the final battle of KoD, Mandevwin had command of one half of the soldiers (although Mat was present) while Talmanes had the other. From that,you can see that he is Talmanes second.

 

There is a personal relation that's been developed between Daerid, Talmanes and these lordlings and Mat, the first mention of Mandev is in KoD and he does not once show that he treats Mat as anything but his superior, not a friend. Contrast that to how Reimon and the others and Mat were acting in the tent when they arrived at the camp. And suddenly he's best buds with this guy, enough for Mandevwin to call him as 'Mat'? I don't buy that.

 

All of the commanders we see call Mat by his name, why wouldn't you expect him to do the same? Anyone who has ears knows Mat hates being called "Lord." Mandevwin has been with the Band since Cairhien so of course he'd be more familiar with him.

 

 

'Twinkle in his eye'. That's all I have to say about the Talmanes bit.

 

Previously, all we've known from our few scenes with Talmanes is that he never laughs and rarely smiles, and has a haunted past, ergo Sanderson's characterization of him (if it even was all-Sanderson) fit perfectly as it didn't go against that.

[Diederichos]

Reimon and the others are -Banner-Generals-, Mandevwin is a -Captain-, one is a flag rating the other is a senior officer, but he isn't expected to act independently. Being a commander here means that you act independently, not that you have the head honcho right there to keep you in line. Mandevwin himself was simply passing on orders that had been arranged by Mat himself prior. Put it this way, Reimon and the others were senior enough to command fights away from Mat's direct presence and supervision, Mandevwin is relaying Mat's orders himself.

 

There's a pretty big difference, he was /not/ in command of the crossbowmen at the last battle just as he was not in command of the ones in the forest where they surprised 2k lancers. At the last battle, command was divided into two parts, the portion with Talmanes and the ones with Mat, those were the commanders with Mandevwin relaying Mat's orders.

 

And there are plenty of officers and NCOs and regular soldiers who have been there since Cairhien, for that matter, there were what...3-5 thousand(I want to say 6 but I'm not sure) before Mat is sent to fetch Elayne. But none of them actually knew Mat on a personal level, certainly not to the degree that they would call him 'Mat'.

 

Secondly, all of the commanders we see are Mat's friends, people who have a /personal/ relationship with him going back 5-6 books. Mandevwin, for all intents and purposes, is a character that is 1 book old. To say that he is to the point that he would call Mat after having 0 in terms of a developed relationship in the books with him is just a cop-out. That scene would have worked better with Reimon because we know him to be a joker, that's something that we've seen in actual books and has been stated several times.

 

To say that Talmanes is a one-dimensional character is to say that Lan does not have layers and that Galad has nothing deep. Look at his interactions with Mat during the scene with Naleasan(right spelling?) in the tent right after the battle of Cairhien. Look at how he is around Egwene. That's depth, even if it is not 'in your face' and that's what this character has been built into over his appearance in the books. He can still act as the foil to Mat's humour by just being what he is instead of adding to the character something that is a complete 180 degree turn.

 

This is what it boils down to. Mandevwin's part should have been played by a character who had a developed personal relation with Mat and who was a joker, that's Reimon. Talmanes did not need to have a 'twinkle in his eye' to be a foil to Mat, the scene would have still been funny without risking that the characters be pulled out of the story saying 'wow, who is this guy'.

 

I think in large part it's because Mat and crew's part has been drawn out longer than it needed to be and the rest of it is because BS is still unfamiliar to writing these characters(the others in the books were spot on however). It's just, don't introduce yet another minor character into a series already filled out with them, readers are emotionally invested in Mat's band and its main parts, fleshing out what's already there rather than continuously adding characters serves little purpose except to dilute how memorable these already minor characters are. Mandevwin, short of him playing a huge role in later books, did not need to be in that scene.

[Muad Cheade]

So you're saying Mandevwin couldn't have been a friend of Mat because we did not see him in any scenes prior to KoD? Carlomin and Reimon have only been in two chapters before KoD and even in KoD they were only in seen in one. The fact that Mat himself knows of Mandevwin and that he has been with the Band since the very beginning means he is atleast familiar with him.

 

Look at it this way, we have only seen a handful of references of people using the bathroom. Does that mean they do not? No. It just means we haven't seen those scenes. The same goes for Mat and his commanders.

 

The others may be Banner-Generals but they still were not commanding as many men as Mandevwin. He had more responsibility than them. Also, his men were mounted infantry so he played the same role Talmanes and Daerid did in the early days of the Band. One commanded cavalry, the other infantry.

 

You say that Mandevwin only relayed Mat's orders during the last battle of KoD as he isn't given the free reign to act independently. Two things though: 1). All of the commanders followed Mat's orders. That is what you do when your general lays out a battle plan. You follow him. 2). Mat was with Daerid when he faced Couladin in tFoH. "Supervising him" as you said. Does that mean Daerid is still not capable? Absolutely not.

 

To say that Talmanes is a one-dimensional character is to say that Lan does not have layers and that Galad has nothing deep. Look at his interactions with Mat during the scene with Naleasan(right spelling?) in the tent right after the battle of Cairhien. Look at how he is around Egwene. That's depth, even if it is not 'in your face' and that's what this character has been built into over his appearance in the books. He can still act as the foil to Mat's humour by just being what he is instead of adding to the character something that is a complete 180 degree turn.

 

What was in TGS did not contradict the Talmanes from before. Just re-read his scenes in LoC. He makes a few jokes, chuckles and grins. I never said he was one-dimensional. He is is mostly serious but can smile and make the occasional joke if the moment is right.

 

Also, we still don't know if Sanderson wrote that scene or if he followed the notes Jordan left behind. So you can't make that assumption.

[Sharaman]

Just a "what-if". What if the changes in personality are extremely deliberate and important to plot construction in the last two books and you're supposed to notice it? Everyone who's said they don't like it is going to feel very weird. 

 

[Diederichos]

For the last time please understand that Mandevwin was not commanding those men, he was relaying Mat's orders. Mat's own thoughts clarify this, he was ready to issue them himself at a moment in the fight but Mandevwin beat him to it. If Mandevwin is commanding that group, Mat would not have overriden him like that in front of their own men with all that that entails. Banner General > Captain. That's been established throughout the series and the BWB. Therefore Reimon and the others outrank Mandevwin. If Mat wanted Mandevwin to be their superior,  he would have made him at the very least a Banner-General, their equal in rank. Mandevwin is not and he does not command in those fights with Mat, he gives out orders that Mat has told him to give out. Reimon and crew were following operational orders but they had tactical command, Mandevwin was operating under Mat's tactical command, that's why he had Mat all those time.

 

I'll show you an example of why he can't be his friend whereas the other are.

 

"Reimon laughed again, "If I know Mat, he's planning us a battle..." That's page 612 of the paperback version of KoD. On page 610, the only officers to come up to Mat and actually greet him as friends are the Banner-Generals, which are the only ones who knew him long enough to feel entitled to approach him and start chatting.

 

Contrast that to Mandevwin's behaviour in the ambush of the lancers, heck, look at how he addresses Mat that night. "You cannot deny there is battle luck...Battle luck rides on your shoulders, my Lord. I have seen it." Page 651 of KoD. Unless you're a sycophant, then you do not call Mat 'my lord' if you are his friend. At the very most 'Lord Mat' if you want to be ultra-formal which Talmanes does back on 612. But again, that's Talmanes, he's very formal, something that has been established for him in his character.

 

So, to sum up. 1. Reimon and the others outrank Mandevwin 2. Mandevwin was not commanding anything 3. Mandevwin has been shown as clearly someone who has a very deferential behaviour towards Mat. Reimon at the very least treats him as a friend on a personal level. That's what has been established in the books, that's what any further development should have been based off of.

 

That scene had the wrong character used on the one hand and another character exaggerated, period. Until such a time as Mandevwin is proven to be a much more important character, then he shouldn't have been involved in that scene at all. And Talmanes' humour is at best sardonic from what I remember, very subtle deadpan, this was no such thing. As things stand right now, this scene just gave far too much screen time to yet another minor character rather than develop existing minor characters. Anything else until the next two books is conjecture.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

The sphincter on this guy...  :o

 

Who here is of the opinion that there are a large contingent of Darkfriends in the Band of the Red Hand?

[Mr Ares]

And Talmanes' humour is at best sardonic from what I remember, very subtle deadpan, this was no such thing.

And that is a criticism of BS that has been brought up before - he lacks RJ's subtlety. Sanderson has said that he always saw Talmanes in that way: "Brandon said that he has always read Talmanes that way, and that’s what he finds so funny about it – Mat doesn’t realize he’s being teased." So is it character development, or just a lack of subtlety?

[Sentinel78]

Who here is of the opinion that there are a large contingent of Darkfriends in the Band of the Red Hand?

 

No way.  Moridin been handing out pictures of Mat all over the world trying to get him killed to every Darkfriend he can get in touch with.  If there was a 'large contingent' of DFs Mat would be dead.  "Oops, I shot the general during crossbow training --- my bad!" 

 

There might be a few DFs, or maybe Mat's ta'veren nature kept them away.  You need a certain amount of bravery to join a military organization like Mat's (unless you are ordered to by the Forsaken), and DFs are somewhat lacking in that department.

[schneb]

I wish that I had read this thread before I went to the signing a couple of days ago.  I did ask BS about the back story scene, and he shot down a pet theory of mine.  My pet theory was that He had written the scene as a kind of homage to RJ and his copious notes and back stories for all the the characters, even the minor ones.  Brandon answered that no, that was not why the scene was there, and he reminded the audience that this was not the first time that Mat had created back stories, just that this was a little more detailed.  Brandon reminded the audience that Mat had created a back story for each of the people that left Ebu Dar with him in Luca's traveling show.

 

This also answers Hanna Banana's criticism that this was something that BS added that was too modern for the flavor of the books.  The idea of Mat creating back stories was introduced by Jordan, not by Sanderson.

[jemron]

Remember people, BS wrote most of this book, but he did it based off of very detailed notes from RJ.  The specific words used might be different, but the story and specific plot details are all RJ.

[tur4k]

For some the change in Mat isn't a big deal.  For others like myself, he didn't even seem like the same character.  I don't think we are knit picking.  We are afraid that Mat is going to be reduced to a "Comic Relief" character that we don't relate to anymore.  It's not a difference in writing styles.  It's the essence of the character.  I don't want a new and improved Mat.  I want the Mat that I've been reading about for almost two decades.

 

I was always eager to see more Mat POV when reading this series, but when I was reading TGS I suddenly did not want to read more Mat.  The change in Mat was just too drastic.  I found his new humor to be more annoying then funny.  Now I find myself hoping that BS has gotten enough negative feedback to really make an effort to be more true to the characters in Mat's little group.

 

The Mat POV's were a stain on an otherwise masterful job done by BS in writing this book in my opinion.  The other arc's were more then I could have hoped for.  Mat is going to have a much much bigger role in the books yet to come.  I am very worried that I will not like a book that contains a lot of the new Mat.

 

I now find myself looking forward to the next book with a sense of hope, dread and uncertainty.  Over all I think TGS was brilliant.  I don't mind any differences in style.  Just give me back the old Mat.

[tur4k]

To those that have mentioned Brandon didn't want to emulate RJ's style because he didn't want it to come across as a bad parody, that is exactly what the new Mat is to me.  A bad parody of the character that was Matrim Cauthon.

[Jonn]

And Talmanes' humour is at best sardonic from what I remember, very subtle deadpan, this was no such thing.

And that is a criticism of BS that has been brought up before - he lacks RJ's subtlety. Sanderson has said that he always saw Talmanes in that way: "Brandon said that he has always read Talmanes that way, and that’s what he finds so funny about it – Mat doesn’t realize he’s being teased." So is it character development, or just a lack of subtlety?

 

It's the latter. To say that Talmanes was subtle is like saying that Cairhienin nobles play the Game of Houses.

 

I really don't like the idea of Sanderson or anyone giving characters a treatment. The characters have been who they are for 20 years now, and they've developed into what they are gradually.

 

The way the feel of Mat's scenes have changed from one book to the next are at odds with how I thought Sanderson developed Egwene and Rand.

 

Egwene and Rand went off almost seamlessly. I really liked how Rand moved and I LOVED how Egwene turned out.

Little details like Aviendha's scenes...I really could have been reading RJ all the way through, I couldn't tell the difference and it was very gratifying.

 

Mat though was bad just BECAUSE people have to defend it. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were perfect or even acceptable. To have to even make note of it or excuses or justifications is a bad sign.

 

And Mat having made aliases before and backstories...DUH! Almost all the characters have hidden themselves, made up backstories for their aliases. It's a common occurance with these characters as they play dangerous games.

RJ just did it much much better. It was never distracting. It was natural. It just flowed and you laughed because not only was it funny, it always came off plausibly according to the characters' M O. He used the same devices with identity and aliases to create drama and tension. RJ never did it as a pure gag.

 

The scene in question never even needed aliases. They never entered the town. I was reading and and thinking at the time actually: When is this going to be over already?

 

And I kind of resent the attitude that people can't have ANY criticism of the book. You can't honestly expect that everyone is going to say that this book was perfect factoring in the reality of RJ having passed away and was replaced with someone else...

[Mortimer]

I thought Mat was fine in this story. He kidded around with his guys, hated the AS, and provided some commedy. If you look at it from a big picture perspective, he didn't *do* anything of real substance in this book.  His plot was moved forward a smidge, more of a travelogue than anything else.

 

Personally, I think his chapters were to provide a release from the really heavy stuff going on elsewhere. I would withhold final judgement until after ToM, in which Mat should play a central roll.

[Vambram]

Mat though was bad just BECAUSE people have to defend it. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were perfect or even acceptable. To have to even make note of it or excuses or justifications is a bad sign.

 

In your opinion as well as apparently in the opinion of a relative minority of those whom have read TGS is your belief true. On the other hand, a majority of posters on this thread, as well as TGS's writer, editor, and research team do not have any problem with how Matrim Cauthon was portrayed in TGS.

So, Jonn, you and the others in the minority may continue to feel like you are correct, and that is perfectly within your rights to do so. Most others, though, simply believe that you are incorrect and probably waaaay over-reacting.

[Jillain Sanche]

It's great to see Mat using his new "external humor". I loved the backstory part too. I actually laughed out loud. It's nice too see and hear the banter with Talmanes as well. C'mon, guys in the field harass each other, boast, and make bawdy jokes. These guys are adults by now too, it was getting pretty lame when the best Mat could do was reminisce bout being beaten by the wisdom for stealing pies from windowsills or dusting dogs in flour. Now if ALL the characters would get over the fact that they don't understand the other sex, and just start bitching about them like Mat is learning to do, this is going to get even better.

 

I agree, and it makes me wonder about the minority who don't get it about the fact that Mat and the rest are growing up! Yeah! When they left the Two Rivers they were teenagers; they were all shy and naive in the big world.

 

What I wonder is: Does this minority of naysayers skew to a lower age demographic themselves? In part, I wonder this based on the number of those who hate the Perrin/Faile love story and that he was obsessed when she had been abducted. It is a perfectly normal reaction for a person to lose their focus and moorings when their loved one(s) are gone!

 

Or, if the naysayers are adults, and they had been in love and went throught the changes in philosophy that normally brings, then why would they not want Mat and the rest to grow up and move into new chapters of their lives?

 

;D

[richnewton82]

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[Diederichos]

It's not what the characters are doing that is the issue but rather how it is written. It's not a question of the characters growing up or anything, expecting Mat to remain the same after all that happened in KoD is just ridiculous. But how it is written is just not good. The backstory stuff is milked dry for all that it's worth, Talmanes is essentially not Talmanes and what I earlier said about the wrong characters being used.

 

A badly-written section is not a reflection on the readers but rather that the section is badly written. Stop being so defensive folks.

[Vambram]

A badly-written section is not a reflection on the readers but rather that the section is badly written. Stop being so defensive folks.

That is typical to assume that someone whom disagrees with an opinion is being defensive. However, what most of us whom disagree with the minority on this thread have been saying is that we simply believe you are incorrect and have posted reasons as to why we disagree. Now, if you choose to want to call that being defensive, then that is your free will choice to do so. On the other hand, I know that I believe that your choice is incorrect and assumes something that simply is not there, .. unless perhaps you have the ability to read a person's mind?

[tur4k]

Mat though was bad just BECAUSE people have to defend it. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were perfect or even acceptable. To have to even make note of it or excuses or justifications is a bad sign.

 

In your opinion as well as apparently in the opinion of a relative minority of those whom have read TGS is your belief true. On the other hand, a majority of posters on this thread, as well as TGS's writer, editor, and research team do not have any problem with how Matrim Cauthon was portrayed in TGS.

So, Jonn, you and the others in the minority may continue to feel like you are correct, and that is perfectly within your rights to do so. Most others, though, simply believe that you are incorrect and probably waaaay over-reacting.

 

I find this response to be absurd.  I have seen a lot of posts from people that are complaining about the change to Mat.  I was upset enough to register for these forums and add my voice to the complaints.  You dismiss it as over-reacting, but if it keeps people that have been invested in this story and these characters for over a decade from enjoying the conclusion to a series they love, then it is not over-reacting.

 

People feared another author finishing the series because they didn't want to see something as beloved as WoT mishandled by another author.  In Brandon's defense, I think he did a hell of a job over all.  So far I am glad that he was chosen to finish this series, but this one major character is being mishandled in the opinion of myself and a lot of others.  This is severely impacting our ability to enjoy the conclusion of the series.

 

Just because it's not a big deal to you doesn't mean the other peoples severe dissatisfaction with how one of the main characters was handled should be dismissed as over-reacting.  I agree with Jonn when he said "And I kind of resent the attitude that people can't have ANY criticism of the book".  You enjoyed the whole book.  I'm happy for you.  To others this was devastating.

 

 

[richnewton82]

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[Diederichos]

But here's the thing, there's also the issue of character weight. As it stands right now, the principal characters in Mat's Band, had a few pages of actual development throughout the entire series. What is the purpose of adding yet another minor character who'll be whining/complaining/kidding? There's one already, Reimon. It's diluting the series' existing characters by not developing what's there and just keeping on adding forgettable names in bit parts.

 

Which is a pity because we can argue until we're blue about whether RJ has written this in the notes or whether they're additions made by BS. So I'll just go ahead and say that if it was a BS part, then I hope that this was a fluke in an otherwise excellent book and if RJ wrote the notes exactly like that, then as much as it makes me a heretic, it was badly-designed. Build on what's there rather than just keep on adding character after character and Talmanes was just stretched too far.

[Vambram]

Mat though was bad just BECAUSE people have to defend it. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were perfect or even acceptable. To have to even make note of it or excuses or justifications is a bad sign.

 

In your opinion as well as apparently in the opinion of a relative minority of those whom have read TGS is your belief true. On the other hand, a majority of posters on this thread, as well as TGS's writer, editor, and research team do not have any problem with how Matrim Cauthon was portrayed in TGS.

So, Jonn, you and the others in the minority may continue to feel like you are correct, and that is perfectly within your rights to do so. Most others, though, simply believe that you are incorrect and probably waaaay over-reacting.

 

I find this response to be absurd.  I have seen a lot of posts from people that are complaining about the change to Mat.

 

What you see as a lot of posts agreeing with your opinion, I see that the number of posts and number of posters in agreement with you is still in the relative minority regarding the scenes with Mat and his men in TGS.

 

I was upset enough to register for these forums and add my voice to the complaints.  You dismiss it as over-reacting, but if it keeps people that have been invested in this story and these characters for over a decade from enjoying the conclusion to a series they love, then it is not over-reacting.

 

Look at what you just said. People like you and I have been reading this series with hardcore dedication for 18 years. Unfortunately, the Creator of the WOT is unable to finish this greatest epic fantasy series of all time. All WOT fans and many fans of fantasy are still saddened by RJ's untimely passing away. But, RJ's wife chose a very competent author to finish the WOT series. Without Harriet choosing to allow and choosing to be very closely involved with the finishing of the WOT series, all of us millions of WOT fans would not be able to enjoy a series that has kept us spellbound for 18 years.

 

 

People feared another author finishing the series because they didn't want to see something as beloved as WoT mishandled by another author.  In Brandon's defense, I think he did a hell of a job over all.  So far I am glad that he was chosen to finish this series, but this one major character is being mishandled in the opinion of myself and a lot of others.  This is severely impacting our ability to enjoy the conclusion of the series.

 

Just because it's not a big deal to you doesn't mean the other peoples severe dissatisfaction with how one of the main characters was handled should be dismissed as over-reacting.  I agree with Jonn when he said "And I kind of resent the attitude that people can't have ANY criticism of the book".  You enjoyed the whole book.  I'm happy for you.  To others this was devastating.

 

 

 

So, now that we have read TGS, and now that some have strong disagreements with how they think Mat and his men should have been written, they have apparently allowed and chosen to let that disagreement prevent them from completely enjoying the completion of the WOT and RJ's vision.

I believe that such a choice is over-reaction.

*shrugs*

Some don't believe it is over reacting and that is entirely the free choice that they can choose to make.

 

On the other hand, I have completely enjoyed and loved reading TGS, and I do not have any problems at all with how Mat, Thom, Talmanes or any of the characters were portrayed. I believe that what we read in TGS is the result of the extremely hard work of the writer, the editor, and the research team.

[richnewton82]

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[Kinsbane]

Hi all,

 

I didn't read the whole thread for this, but just wondering if anyone else (here or elsewhere) picked up on Mat needing to be in Caemlyn because Birgitte is there, and because Birgitte is the one who knows how to get into the ToG?

 

I'm not entirely sure why I didn't put 2+2 together before...

 

I have to say that I agree Mat in this book was weird, but honestly, I think it's a new Mat that is doing some more growing up and coming to grips with what he must do.