No, Balefire Does Not Work Like that. (-- 2009 Empy Award Winner!)

[jemron]

To go along with this, doesn't a person who is balefired a tiny bit sort of flash before they disappear, but a person who is balefired further back immediately disappears?

 

In other words, if you immediately disappear it's because the BF was stronger.  If you sort of flicker or flash before you disappear, it's because you were balefired only enough to barely burn your thread back (just a few seconds or a minute or two at most).

 

It specifically says that both Semi and Elza flashed before they disappeared.  This would imply that they weren't BFd very far back at all, so the bruises would still remain, just not as strong.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That seems to be true, jemron.

 

Bel'al, the Darkhounds, Trollocs, all exhibit visual after-effects.  All were hit with low intensity balefire.

 

Semirhage: "She flashed and vanished, leaving a faint afterimage to Rand's vision."

 

Rahvin, who got everything Rand could unleash, simply "ceased."

[Mr Ares]

so why did he forbade his minions from using balefire in AOL?

They chose to stop using it, as they don't want the world to end.

 

I guess that just shifts the question to why didn't the DO order them to continue. Perhaps in the AOL, where the Dark One had more freedom then he currently has, he had a more direct way to alter the pattern that worked better for him then the in-discriminant use of balefire.

He couldn't order them to do it. They wouldn't obey. They desire power, and forcing them to follow a course of action they know can only lead to the end of that which they wish to rule is something that will turn them against Him. All His support would vanish.

[MatrixM]

To go along with this, doesn't a person who is balefired a tiny bit sort of flash before they disappear, but a person who is balefired further back immediately disappears?

 

In other words, if you immediately disappear it's because the BF was stronger.  If you sort of flicker or flash before you disappear, it's because you were balefired only enough to barely burn your thread back (just a few seconds or a minute or two at most).

 

It specifically says that both Semi and Elza flashed before they disappeared.  This would imply that they weren't BFd very far back at all, so the bruises would still remain, just not as strong.

 

The bruise is there because Rand did it. (of course, not intentionally.) Brandon said so.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The bruise is there because Rand did it. (of course, not intentionally.) Brandon said so.

 

Jordan trumps Sanderson.

 

As Min, herself notes, "When he'd been close to killing her with his own hand, she hadn't feared him.  But then she'd known it wasn't Rand hurting her, but Semirhage."

 

Rand wasn't the cause, Semirhage was.  If the remnants of the Domination Band and Min's bruises both remain it's because the time interval Semi was burned backwards was too short for those things to change state.

 

To see the way Jordan meant for balefire to work you just have to look at Mat's death in Caemlyn.

 

His medallion protects him from primary channeling effects.  So, he didn't die from any direct effect of anything Rahvin did.  The lightning had to be a secondary effect.  His death from the lightning was a tertiary effect.  The damage to his clothing, the medallion, and his boots being blown from his feet etc. were all quaternary effects.

 

Once Rand balefired Rahvin back far enough, all of those effects had to be undone.  The boots returned to his feet, in the exact condition they'd been in when he stepped off the skimming platform.  His clothing and medallion were undamaged.  He was returned to life.

 

The entire causal chain got rewoven.

[analyticalkeys]

As Min, herself notes, "When he'd been close to killing her with his own hand, she hadn't feared him.  But then she'd known it wasn't Rand hurting her, but Semirhage."

 

Rand wasn't the cause, Semirhage was.  If the remnants of the Domination Band and Min's bruises both remain it's because the time interval Semi was burned backwards was too short for those things to change state.

 

I don't think this is right. I think Min realizes that Semirhage was FORCING Rand to do it, therefore, it was technically Semirhage who was damaging her since it was not of Rand's will.. however, Rand was the one who was physically doing it to Min. I really don't think this is a mistake, Semirhage caused Rand to leave the marks, but it was still Rand.. if Semirhage did it with her own hands, they would've probably disappeared.

[clu7ch]

STILL. Asmo didn't get made back to life via rands superblast.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't think this is right. I think Min realizes that Semirhage was FORCING Rand to do it, therefore, it was technically Semirhage who was damaging her since it was not of Rand's will.. however, Rand was the one who was physically doing it to Min. I really don't think this is a mistake, Semirhage caused Rand to leave the marks, but it was still Rand.. if Semirhage did it with her own hands, they would've probably disappeared.

 

If she'd been burned backwards more than a few seconds, the Domination Band would have been restored.  It wasn't, therefore she wasn't.

 

It all comes down to the amount of time covered, not whose hand was on Min's throat.

[Bob T Dwarf]

STILL. Asmo didn't get made back to life via rands superblast.

 

Of course not.  Graendal never killed Asmo.  Rand could have blasted her back to when she was still sealed away in the Bore, and it wouldn't bring Asmo back.

[clu7ch]

thank god someone sees reason

[michaelacheson]

1. BS said that TP Balefire can destroy Cuendillar. So Moridin will toast Rand if he's permitted to do so.

 

2. And see, Egwene was changing iron articles into heartstone. Iron cups, iron bracelets and whatnot. So one could just make a regular armor of VERY thin iron sheet and convert it to Cuendillar if one desires the ultimate psysical and OP protection. If Balefiring the maker is one way of destroying Cuendillar, why not have Rand himself make it? Or why not make one for Egwene herself, too?

 

But no. Rabd won't do that. I am entirely certain that he'll walk into the Last Battle clad in little more than his hair. They say it's more heroic that way.

 

Also, consider this scenario: some random dark channeler makes the ground under Rand erupt, and he in his glorious suit of Heartstone is hoiked sky-high. Then he falls back to earth, and the absolutely unyielding Heartstone does one admirable job of mangling his six foot eight inch oh-so-hot frame. Badass.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

Balefire this thread.

[clu7ch]

Balefire this thread.

 

what flavor sir? OP or TP bf?

[grolm]

Has BS commented on how far back in time Elza was balefired? Seems to me if Rand hit her with a full load of TP balefire, wouldn't she be burned far enough back not to have given Semi the Domination Band to start with?

[analyticalkeys]

Has BS commented on how far back in time Elza was balefired? Seems to me if Rand hit her with a full load of TP balefire, wouldn't she be burned far enough back not to have given Semi the Domination Band to start with?

 

They flickered/flashed.. that means they haven't been sent back too far.. probably a few seconds, or even a minute or two.

[grolm]

I was wondering. I remember when Moiraine balefired Be'lal. She could only burn him back a few seconds. I took his comment in that scene when he said, "What? No!" to be his moment of realization that Moiraine had burned his thread out of existance.

 

I'd think if the burn out goes backwards a few seconds that the person being balefired would flash or go misty before the BF actually hit, not after, but thats a quibble.

 

Certainly Elza and Semi both light up after going poof. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone asked BS for a definitive answer on how far back Elza was burned. How long before she arrives to wear the second bracelet did she give the Domination Band to Semi? If burned far enough back, would that have meant that Semi never got the Domination Band in the first place to put on Rand, thus wiping out the whole chapter? If she just got toasted a few seconds, then nothing important changes.

[clu7ch]

here we are once again postulating that the TP is more powerful that the OP, which BS said it was not necessarily. Also, Rand did some quick Balefire work there, he didn't take time to charge it up any, (presuming it works that way) it was Pow, Pow, done. He wasn't trying to think of how far back he was sending them, he just wanted them dead.

[grolm]

here we are once again postulating that the TP is more powerful that the OP, which BS said it was not necessarily. Also, Rand did some quick Balefire work there, he didn't take time to charge it up any, (presuming it works that way) it was Pow, Pow, done. He wasn't trying to think of how far back he was sending them, he just wanted them dead.

Nope, I never said that TP balefire is stronger than OP balefire. The scene doesn't have any hard evidence as to exactly how far back their threads were burned out, other than the flash effect both Elza and Semi show, which does seem to indicate that Rand didn't shoot his most powerful balefire at them. I agree he was probably shooting from the hip there, especially with Semi. Seems with Elza he missed a chance to undo some serious damage.

 

Course, he has no angreal or other aids (if such even exist for the TP), so even being one of the most powerful channelers around, he couldn't burn them too far back unaided. When he whacked Rahvin he was also using the fat man angreal wasn't he? The most powerful channelers can only knock out a few minutes at most, unless they have a power boost from sa'angreal or angreal. Even if he's popped Elza with all he could, it might not have undone her actions with the Semi and SH because that probably happened more than just a few seconds before Rand arrived in his rooms.

 

We also don't know how long a time passed between Semi being freed and Rand showing up. Clearly Semi is in the room for the conversation with Min up to the point she drops her mirror of mists disguise, which must have been inverted so Rand didn't sense a woman channeling so near him. A lot happens off stage around this scene that would be nice to have seen.

[elec1cele]

Jordan trumps Sanderson.

 

As Min, herself notes, "When he'd been close to killing her with his own hand, she hadn't feared him.  But then she'd known it wasn't Rand hurting her, but Semirhage."

 

Rand wasn't the cause, Semirhage was.  If the remnants of the Domination Band and Min's bruises both remain it's because the time interval Semi was burned backwards was too short for those things to change state.

 

To see the way Jordan meant for balefire to work you just have to look at Mat's death in Caemlyn.

 

His medallion protects him from primary channeling effects.  So, he didn't die from any direct effect of anything Rahvin did.  The lightning had to be a secondary effect.  His death from the lightning was a tertiary effect.  The damage to his clothing, the medallion, and his boots being blown from his feet etc. were all quaternary effects.

 

Once Rand balefired Rahvin back far enough, all of those effects had to be undone.  The boots returned to his feet, in the exact condition they'd been in when he stepped off the skimming platform.  His clothing and medallion were undamaged.  He was returned to life.

 

The entire causal chain got rewoven.

I think the pattern needs an actor for an effect to have happened.  Since the lighting bolt couldn't just appear and zap all those people it and everything it caused gets removed.

 

But in Rand's case he was still there to do the deeds so the pattern didn't need to have the things he did reversed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think the pattern needs an actor for an effect to have happened.  Since the lighting bolt couldn't just appear and zap all those people it and everything it caused gets removed.

 

But in Rand's case he was still there to do the deeds so the pattern didn't need to have the things he did reversed.

 

The salient point in all of this is that Rand was not the actor.  Semirhage was. 

 

As I stated in another thread, Rand was nothing more than the garrote that Semirhage used to choke Min.  From the time she snapped that Domination Band around his neck until he blasted it off, Rand was nothing more than a thing that Semirhage was directly manipulating.  He had no control over his own body.  He wasn't choosing between ugly alternatives.  He was a thing, not a person.

 

It was all Semirhage.

[elmis]

The counter argument is that while Rand was a 'thing', and it was Semirhages actions he still has a thread in the pattern, and that thread got involved with Mins thread (the choking). And thus the BF does not remove those actions (as oposed to a Garrote, which is an object and does not have a thread).

 

There are arguments for and against, both are valid.

 

What would happen if Semirhage removed the a'dam and he BF'ed her directly afterwards? Balefire paradox?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The counter argument is that while Rand was a 'thing', and it was Semirhages actions he still has a thread in the pattern, and that thread got involved with Mins thread (the choking). And thus the BF does not remove those actions (as oposed to a Garrote, which is an object and does not have a thread).

 

There are arguments for and against, both are valid.

 

What would happen if Semirhage removed the a'dam and he BF'ed her directly afterwards? Balefire paradox?

 

That's incorrect.  Everything has a thread in the Pattern.  Dirt, rocks, buildings, everything.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Claireducky reporting

 

Claire: (comment regarding the thread on Dragonmount where some are arguing that by balefiring Graendal's palace, the compulsion disappeared since there'd never had been a palace in the first place, and others are arguing that it doesn't work that way, objects don't have threads).

Brandon: Everything has a thread, not just souls.  Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern.

 

[1eejit]

Your point still relies on the assumption that the pattern's reaction to balefire will consider someone who usually exercises some free will but forced into an action through an a'dam the same as a normally inanimate object wielded directly by the balefired person.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Your point still relies on the assumption that the pattern's reaction to balefire will consider someone who usually exercises some free will but forced into an action through an a'dam the same as a normally inanimate object wielded directly by the balefired person.

 

Point to anywhere in the scene where Rand is being forced to choke Min where he has any free will, or even any control over his own body.

[1eejit]

Usually having free will versus never having free will. You assume that the Pattern will not distinguish between a temporary removal of free will and never having any.

 

Maybe you're right, it could go either way, but you're claiming the author made a mistake based on your assumption of how it should be. Personally I think it's more likely that he knows what he's doing.