Signing questions and answers

[Luckers]

Alright people the Compilation has been updated, and its more than twice its former size. There are some real doozies in there too.

 

8. Question: Was the Domination Band made of cuendillar?

 

8. Answer: The original one is made of cuendillar.  The one that was destroyed was a copy, but one would assume that the copies are made of cuendillar too.  The True Power works by destroying the Pattern.  Everything that is done with it involves damage to the Pattern.  For example, when we see Ishamael Travel, he does so by poking a hole in the Pattern.  Cuendillar can be destroyed using the True Power.  There is another way to destroy cuendillar, too.

 

He's right about the copy being cuendillar--Elza's bracelet was undamaged by the balefire. That being said the most interesting part of this is... "Cuendillar can be destroyed using the True Power.  There is another way to destroy cuendillar, too"

 

:o

 

10. Question: OK, number two. Have the visions and other such prophecies about Egwene and the Seanchan (such as the running one and the one with the sword) have they been fulfilled yet?

 

10. Answer: No, none of those have been fulfilled other than the attack on the White Tower. She still has more to go.

 

Haha! Sorry Kivam.

 

11. Question: Is there any chance that Cadsuane might be Ilyena reborn?

 

11. Answer: I...wha?...First of all, I'm not going to answer that. Second of all...EWW! ... And you can quote me on that! [note from Mato: This was frackin' HILARIOUS. Totally unexpected, and Sanderson was totally shocked over it.] [Note from Luckers: How many times has Cadsuane been compared to be Rand’s stern aunt? I second Brandon’s ‘eiww’ lol]

 

When I found this I literally burst out laughing. It's just creepy on so many levels.

 

13. Question: Can you elaborate on why the voice of Lews Therin was not speaking when Rand and Isha--I mean Moridin were talking? Is it becau--

 

13. Answer: Ah. Yes, well, I'm going to have to RAFO that one...too close to dealing with the specifics of the voice, sorry.

 

There is something significant in this. I encourage coversation about it.

 

•  Brandon says of the five Redarms that enter Hinderstap with Mat that the three that seem unaccounted for when everyone else escapes are not “forgotten” and their circumstances are RAFO. He also said that he appreciates the finding of continuity errors so that they can be corrected before books go to paperback, but they are an unavoidable part of the business. He doesn’t like when authors ignore continuity on purpose, but understands accidents.

 

Oooh! I didn't even notice that.

 

1. Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

 

1. Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

 

2. Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?

 

2. Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.

 

•  I asked a follow up question about the big clue in books 4-6, asking if the clue became more relevant due to events in the later books, and he said that it didn't, and that it's something we should have picked up on when it appeared. He also issued a caveat (that is basically common sense) that it is possible someone discussed this issue at some point on one of the boards and that he didn't see that, but that he has never seen it raised in his lurkings, and that this issue is more important than who killed you-know-who.

•  Brandon is concerned about the HCFF's digging and digging for the surprise in books 4-6 and ruining it for TOM. Also, he stated he never read anyone discussing it but it is possible someone has. Also, it is some puzzle that should have been looked at when it was first revealed. It's bigger than who killed Asmodean, according to Brandon. [Luckers Note: This seems to confirm that it will be revealed in ToM]

 

So. This rules out it being the fat man angreal. In fact it kinda puts the crimp on this being an object of any time. 'It's been going for a long time' seems to imply that this overlooked thing is an event, or an effect.

 

My first thought was the Dark One's influence, perhaps especially in the way it continues without any problems from the wardings, but thats too big, and is discussed often--I don't see how Brandon could miss it.

 

Could it be the Wise One's decision to fight in LoC?

 

2. Question: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?

 

2. Answer: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book.  Egwene is not incorrect.

 

Haha. I have a feeling Brandon's playing us with this comment. Egwene's deductions are 'not incorrect'?

 

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

My feel from this is that Mesaana did not use the 'I'm no Darkfriend, I'm a Chosen!' trick, but some other way. Still--Brandon has given us our mission, lets be at it.

 

4. Question: Was Ishamael partially, or was he responsible for the initiation of the three oaths. Was he a part of what brought them about?

 

4. Answer: That’s a MAFO. Type that one out. That’s a MAFO.

 

What a brilliant question.

 

1. Question: There is a character in the book that appears to die on page 574... [Lucker’s comment: Graendal]

 

1. Answer: ~reads page~…there is a woman that actually dies here…(couldn't decipher for certain if this was a statement or a moving question/comment)

 

2. Question: Did this character actually die?

 

2. Answer: Let’s go on record with this, I am not going to say until after Towers of Midnight, but I will…they are looking for a “toast” comment, and I am not going to give the “toast” comment yet. The scene that I’m talking about, there will be things related to it in the next book, so I don’t want to say yet. Corner me after Towers of Midnight and I will give you a definitive answer, but Towers of Midnight may in itself give a definitive answer.

 

Hahaha. No 'toast' comment. Oh Brandon, how cruel you are!

 

3. Question: Perrin is chasing Slayer in T’A’R, does Slayer actually disappear into the Tower of Ghenjei or does he disappear from the Dream.

 

Answer: That’s actually something I wondered and I asked and that’s a RAFO. Both Slayer and the Tower of Ghenjei are things that are reserved for the Towers of Midnight. [Lucker’s comment: There we go—ToG will be in ToM]

 

At least we're hopefully gonna get an answer if its a Read And Find Out.

 

5. Question: Why do the Aiel revere and protect blacksmiths?

 

5. Answer: It has a lot to do with the fact that without the blacksmiths there can be no warriors. The blacksmiths are the ones who make the spears and who keep them going. But, in a way the blacksmiths are among those who sacrifice being able to go and fight themselves so that others can and that’s kind of a holy calling to the Aiel. There is also a lot of spirituality to it related to where they live, being in the desolate wasteland and the whole concept of being forged. […] There is a spiritual aspect to a blacksmith forging something because of the place that they live. Those are the two of the main reasons. It’s cultural which means there is going to be more than one reason that it is deeply ingrained, but those are two big ones that roll of the top that are in the notes.

 

YES! I have wanted an answer to this for years!

 

6. Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishy)? Which is more correct?

 

6. Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…

 

6. Follow-up Question: In both?

 

6. Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

 

Fascinating!

 

Harriet indicated that the Bloodwrasps mentioned in TGS is not a typo of Bloodwasps and is a new thing we haven’t seen yet.

 

Does anyone know where Bloodwrasps are mentioned? I missed it completely.

 

The beggar prophecy was fulfilled when Rand went to Ebou Dar, as well as the one about the bandages over his eyes.

 

There you go Maj, you were right.

 

The Ajah Heads for the reunited Ajahs will likely be the ones who led their Ajahs before the split. Will be determined quietly and is Ajah business only.

 

If that's true, I imagine Romanda's case will be the exception.

 

 

[coteaz]

I believe that the bloodwrasps are mentioned by Davram at one of his meetings with Ituralde.

[foillion]

1. Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

 

1. Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

 

2. Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?

 

2. Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.

 

•  I asked a follow up question about the big clue in books 4-6, asking if the clue became more relevant due to events in the later books, and he said that it didn't, and that it's something we should have picked up on when it appeared. He also issued a caveat (that is basically common sense) that it is possible someone discussed this issue at some point on one of the boards and that he didn't see that, but that he has never seen it raised in his lurkings, and that this issue is more important than who killed you-know-who.

•  Brandon is concerned about the HCFF's digging and digging for the surprise in books 4-6 and ruining it for TOM. Also, he stated he never read anyone discussing it but it is possible someone has. Also, it is some puzzle that should have been looked at when it was first revealed. It's bigger than who killed Asmodean, according to Brandon. [Luckers Note: This seems to confirm that it will be revealed in ToM]

 

Um when is the first time that Rand gets sick seizing saidin?  This could be a big deal.

[Luckers]

Um when is the first time that Rand gets sick seizing saidin?  This could be a big deal.

 

The Path of Daggers, so its too late.

[Terez]

...the most interesting part of this is... "Cuendillar can be destroyed using the True Power.  There is another way to destroy cuendillar, too"

 

:o

I figured he might be referring to the way the Dark One has weakened the seals.  I suppose you could say that is also having to do with the True Power, but I somehow doubt it.

 

10. Question: OK, number two. Have the visions and other such prophecies about Egwene and the Seanchan (such as the running one and the one with the sword) have they been fulfilled yet?

 

10. Answer: No, none of those have been fulfilled other than the attack on the White Tower. She still has more to go.

 

Haha! Sorry Kivam.

Yeah, we had a few people at Theoryland who thought the Seanchan woman w/sword was fulfilled already, metaphorically.  A possibility is that the woman will be one of the Bloodknives - it would explain the wavering face.

 

13. Question: Can you elaborate on why the voice of Lews Therin was not speaking when Rand and Isha--I mean Moridin were talking? Is it becau--

 

13. Answer: Ah. Yes, well, I'm going to have to RAFO that one...too close to dealing with the specifics of the voice, sorry.

There is something significant in this. I encourage coversation about it.

We pretty much know why the voice was gone in the dream.  Rand says the pieces of himself fit together better there, which indicates that he's in Tel'aran'rhiod, despite his thought that it 'feels different' (this likely has to do with it being near Shayol Ghul).  Birgitte also commented on it when she used the stone ring to visit Tel'aran'rhiod after she had been ripped out - she said that it essentially was just as if she was there as a dead Hero.  Brandon didn't answer the question, that it was because Rand was in Tel'aran'rhiod, because it would essentially confirm construct theory, and RJ didn't want to answer that question (other than by the evidence given in the books).

 

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

My feel from this is that Mesaana did not use the 'I'm no Darkfriend, I'm a Chosen!' trick, but some other way. Still--Brandon has given us our mission, lets be at it.

I didn't get that feeling from the quote.  I don't know that there is any reason to assume that's not exactly what he meant.  We know from Lanfear that they don't think of themselves as Darkfriends, and we know they don't think of themselves as Black Ajah either.

[jemron]

I'm still unsure based on BS's answers whether or not he eventually intends to fill in the blanks about whether or not Lews Therin (the voice) was a real entity or a mental construct by Rand.  Whether he was completely of the taint, or something more.

 

Brandon first seemed to say that it wasn't clear in the notes; then he said, "NO, what I meant was, RJ didn't want it to be revealed clearly ever."

 

Did he mean for TGS, or FOREVER?  I hope there is more clarification on all that before the series ends.

[Terez]

I'm still unsure based on BS's answers whether or not he eventually intends to fill in the blanks about whether or not Lews Therin (the voice) was a real entity or a mental construct by Rand.  Whether he was completely of the taint, or something more.

 

Brandon first seemed to say that it wasn't clear in the notes; then he said, "NO, what I meant was, RJ didn't want it to be revealed clearly ever."

 

Did he mean for TGS, or FOREVER?  I hope there is more clarification on all that before the series ends.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour' date=' Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting[/url']

 

Mato: There have been rumors that you have said that Mr. Jordan did not have anything in his notes about the voice of Lews Therin, whether it was a construct or not. That or that you had sai--[cut off]

Sanderson: I would like to clarify this, thanks for asking. I will NOT say that it was not in the notes. However, Mr. Jordan did NOT want to reveal this information, and therefore I shall not ever either. Mr. Jordan did not want to reveal it.

Harriet: What Brandon said.

Seems pretty clear that he will not ever reveal it.

[Yarazin]

Hi,

 I went to the Scottsdale signing today and it was a lot of fun. Brandon is really nice guy but sadly I think I came across as quite the fool.  One of my questions was received as very obvious to him, maybe it was, but it was not to me...

 

The obvious one was when he was signing my book, I joked that he could personalize it by promising he would cover the Perrin/Galad/Morgase meeting in the next book and he said that seemed pretty obvious to him.

 

My other question, during the Q&A was would we find out why Verin is in such a hurry all of a sudden to get her info across.  Why couldn't it wait (meaning why could she not wait to try the oath rod idea).  Not sure if he didn't want to answer fully or with a RAFO, but he said that there were lots of things going on with that and that's about all I heard... maybe he meant the notes she left would explain it?

 

Like I said, my questions were all of the obvious ones I suppose...

 

My friend who hadn't started the book yet... he asked for me what happened to Laman's sword (Brandon said it was around) and any info to come on the new one.  He basically said yes in that roundabout way...

 

Also, great job by the Storm Leaders and thanks for the semi easy questions I got in trivia.

 

1. Manetheren = Mountain Home, I said something home... they gave it to me

2. Shen an Calhar = The Band of the Red Hand ... got that right away

3. Mistress of the Four Winds, Guardian of the Sea of Storms = Tylin ... I said Ebou Dar - Tylin so got it

4. Where do the Hunters make the vow - Square of Tammaz ... got that right away as well

 

Won a Cairhien flag, pretty cool.

 

One person was asked Ilyena's full name and I would never have gotten that lol

 

Well, that covers my bit I guess, again, had alot of fun. Thanks to everyone, and special thanks to Brandon for coming to my neighborhood!

 

Yarazin

 

[Terez]

One person was asked Ilyena's full name and I would never have gotten that lol

Ilyena Therin Moerelle.  

 

Nope, didn't look it up...

 

Also, Verin was evidently on a timeline because of the time she gave Mat (10 days), and the Black Ajah Oath she took.  She had to make her reveal to Egwene before that time was up, and in the meantime she was probably delivering all of her other letters (which probably all had massive info on Darkfriends), with similar 'wait x days to open this' instructions.

[Terez]

@jemron - I wanted to clarify on the Lews Therin thing.  I think the reason Brandon wanted to clarify on it is because he has been following the discussion on his quotes, or he has someone following it, maybe just on Lews Therin (there has been a great deal of noise about it at Theoryland).  Some people took his earlier comments to mean that there was no correct answer.  I was not one of those people, and neither were most construct people - it was the 'real'ers' that were insistent that his quotes meant that there was no correct answer to the question.  I see it as a last-ditch effort on their part to deny defeat, since The Gathering Storm made things so clear, especially to those who are familiar with the particulars of the debate (mostly Theorylanders, from what I gather - any time I've brought it up here or at Wotmania/rafo.com, I've been bombarded with straw men that suggest that people don't really understand the construct argument at all - no offense meant, because it's not a matter of intelligence, as the theory is so counterintuitive).  In any case, it's been a big deal at Theoryland for years, and nearly every single one of the fence-sitters jumped on the construct bandwagon when the new book came out, because there were so many things in the book that came straight out of our arguments and predictions.  The only real'ers left at Theoryland are the ones that were emotionally or otherwise attached to the theory.

 

A decent representation of construct vs. real can be found in chapter 15 (the same chapter where Rand meets Moridin in the dream).  When Rand wakes up, he and Min have a little debate about the nature of the voice.  Min argues construct essentially, while Rand argues real.  But even Rand is softening to the idea that he is Lews Therin (more so than the real'ers ever have), and near the end of the argument, he admits that it might be him that 'knows things'.  But you can clearly see Rand trying to convince Min, and convince himself, that Lews Therin is another man, but the truth is plain for Min to see:

 

TITLE - The Gathering Storm

CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

 

She walked over and sat next to him. "Rand, he's you. Or you're him. Spun out into the Pattern again. Those memories and things you can do, they're remnants from who you were before."

 

"No," Rand said. "Min, he's insane and I'm not. Besides, he failed. I won't. I won't do it, Min. I won't hurt those I love, as he did. And when I defeat the Dark One, I won't leave him able to return a short time later and terrorize us again."

 

Three thousand years a "short time later"? She put her arms around him. "Does it matter?" she asked. "If there is another person, or if those are just memories from before, the information is useful."

 

"Yes," Rand said, seeming distant again. "But I'm afraid to use the One Power. When I do, I risk letting him take control. He can't be trusted. He didn't mean to kill her, but that doesn't change the fact that he did. Light . . . Ilyena. . . ."

 

Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that it was the other person inside of them who did horrible things?

Rand realizes at the end of the book that Min was right - they were not two men, and never had been.

 

In any case, I respect the fact that RJ didn't want to give an easy answer on this.  It's very obvious from the way he writes, and from the way that he has interacted with his fans over the years, that he wants us to use our brains and figure stuff out....that planting these bread crumb trails in the books for us to follow was one of his greatest pleasures.  The Lews Therin mystery is, IMO, by far the most pervasive mystery of the books.  It permeates every single Rand point of view, and he made the truth so counterintuitive that he could drop literally hundreds of pieces of evidence throughout the series to support it, and most of the fans still wouldn't even think to question Rand's interpretation, that Lews Therin is another man.

[Luckers]

For shorter clarity, the theorylanders are crazy about the question of whether Lews Therin is real, or a construct based on Rand's emotional denial applied to the real memories obtained from his madness. Hence Brandon is endevouring to step carefully.

 

The only reason I know this is because people have come to me about the fact that the constructionists have apparently railed against me (Presumably in an attempt to get me to go over and spank people about it). I don't know why they bothered, as I reguard this as a non-issue and have never cared to involve myself. Yes, it seems evident to me that he's real--and that realness is only further sustained by tGS--but honestly, who gives a flying banana if he turns out to be a construction. He's a voice with real knowledge and an influence on Rand and thats all that matters to me.

 

Or correct, he WAS a voice with an influence on Rand. Even more of a non-issue.

 

[Terez]

The only reason I know this is because people have come to me about the fact that the constructionists have apparently railed against me (Presumably in an attempt to get me to go over and spank people about it).

lol, was that Davian?  In any case, the Lews Therin people have NOTHING on the Asmodean people, so I doubt that fervency has anything to do with why RJ didn't want to reveal the answer to this.  People are crazy about a lot of things, and I've seen flamewars here and at Wotmania over a whole host of issues.

 

The Lews Therin debate is not a non-issue because the two ways of looking at it afford essentially opposite interpretations of what actually happened in Rand's points of view.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't see it as an either/or.  I think it's both.

 

The personality we see/hear in Rand's head is a real and accurate voice of LTT, made available to Rand by the Wheel as a way to provide Rand with knowledge he needed to accomplish the Wheel's ends.

 

Thus, both real and a construct, but a construct of the Wheel not just of Rand's mind.

 

If you look closely at the text, the Wheel does lots of freaky stuff.

[Terez]

I don't see it as an either/or.  I think it's both.

 

The personality we see/hear in Rand's head is a real and accurate voice of LTT, made available to Rand by the Wheel as a way to provide Rand with knowledge he needed to accomplish the Wheel's ends.

Problem is, Rand is Lews Therin, so you can't really separate the two of them like that.  The division between Rand and the voice is a division between conscious and subconscious, not a division between Rand and Lews Therin.  The voice is characterized by Rand as Lews Therin because a) it gives him a way of disassociating himself from Lews Therin's memories, and because b) his most prominent memory from his last life is the Kinslaying, or rather, the grief that came after Ishamael 'Healed' him, and since he's suppressing that memory in particular, it always comes through the voice.  The information that Rand actually needs almost always comes directly to him - the 'voice' almost never supplies any useful information.

 

So, to say that the 'voice' is Lews Therin is highly inaccurate.  Rand is Lews Therin.  The 'voice' is simply an expression of everything that he's trying to express, including painful memories from Lews Therin's life, minor niggling worries about the Forsaken, the overwhelming desire to kill Taim, etc.

 

Thus' date=' both real and a construct, but a construct of the Wheel not just of Rand's mind.[/quote']

Oh, but the Rand's mind bit is important.  There would be no construct if not for that - the Wheel simply gave him the memories (ostensibly via some mechanism, like taint barrier degradation).  But rather than accepting those memories as his own, Rand disassociated himself from them.

 

If you look closely at the text, the Wheel does lots of freaky stuff.

Indeed it does.

[Mr Ares]

Rand is not Lews Therin, Rand is Rand. LTT lived and died thousands of years ago. Rand should not have a dead man's memories in his head, they are not his memories, they are LTT's. That he even has these memories is a sign of madness. Either the personality is "real" or a "construct", but that's really not that important, as he's mad either way.

[Terez]

Rand is not Lews Therin, Rand is Rand. LTT lived and died thousands of years ago.

I fear you are mistaken.  Rand said at the end of The Gathering Storm that they are not two men, and never had been.  But, of course, we knew that already - Lews Therin died, but was reborn as Rand.  He is Rand.

 

Rand should not have a dead man's memories in his head' date=' they are not his memories, they are LTT's.[/quote']

They are his memories from a past life.  Yes, he technically should not have them, but the Wheel obviously wanted him to have them.

 

That he even has these memories is a sign of madness.

I think that the memories have actually caused a lot of his madness, but there's nothing to indicate that the memories are a result of his madness.

 

Either the personality is "real" or a "construct"' date=' but that's really not that important, as he's mad either way.[/quote']

Important to what?  It is important to some things; not to others.  I think a lot of his madness will be relieved after this point - denial is a hard thing to keep up on a daily basis like Rand has been doing since, at least, The Fires of Heaven.

[Mr Ares]

Rand is not Lews Therin, Rand is Rand. LTT lived and died thousands of years ago.

I fear you are mistaken. Rand said at the end of The Gathering Storm that they are not two men, and never had been. But, of course, we knew that already - Lews Therin died, but was reborn as Rand. He is Rand.

I fear you are mistaken. LTT died, and Rand was born, they are the same soul, but different personalities, different people. Are the LTT that died and the LTT in Rand's head the same person? If LTT-in-Rand's-head is a construct, then Rand's comment says nothing at all about the real LTT. And if LTT-in-Rand's-head is real, then he is not a construct, so you are wrong either way.

 

Rand should not have a dead man's memories in his head' date=' they are not his memories, they are LTT's.[/quote']They are his memories from a past life. Yes, he technically should not have them, but the Wheel obviously wanted him to have them.

Yes, obviously, because you say so, so clearly it must be true. I don't see why the Wheel need care about it, really. And a past life is not him. Different person, same soul.

 

That he even has these memories is a sign of madness.

I think that the memories have actually caused a lot of his madness' date=' but there's nothing to indicate that the memories are a [i']result[/i] of his madness.

Then how did he get the memories? We know he is mad, that past life voices are a form of madness. How does he get the memories in the first place? The only theory we have is madness.

 

Either the personality is "real" or a "construct"' date=' but that's really not that important, as he's mad either way.[/quote']Important to what? It is important to some things; not to others. I think a lot of his madness will be relieved after this point - denial is a hard thing to keep up on a daily basis like Rand has been doing since, at least, The Fires of Heaven.

It's not that important to anything.

[Terez]

I fear you are mistaken. LTT died, and Rand was born, they are the same soul, but different personalities, different people.

 

No matter how many times you say it, it doesn't change the fact that Rand said otherwise.

 

Are the LTT that died and the LTT in Rand's head the same person? If LTT-in-Rand's-head is a construct' date=' then Rand's comment says nothing at all about the real LTT.[/quote']

 

The Lews Therin in Rand's head is his subconscious, and Rand's comment verifies this.  The impression that Rand had, that Lews Therin was another man, was fundamentally wrong. And illusion, essentially.  The real Lews Therin is Rand, and always has been.  This is why Rand himself feels the pain when he remembers Ilyena, especially early on before he gets practiced at suppressing it (and before he learns to harden himself to that pain), no matter how much he tries to attribute that memory to Lews Therin.

 

Rand should not have a dead man's memories in his head' date=' they are not his memories, they are LTT's.[/quote']They are his memories from a past life. Yes, he technically should not have them, but the Wheel obviously wanted him to have them.

Yes, obviously, because you say so, so clearly it must be true. I don't see why the Wheel need care about it, really. And a past life is not him. Different person, same soul.

 

It has little to do with 'I say so'.  I think it's probably obvious to most people that Rand needs those memories, has needed them all along to help him defeat Forsaken, etc.  They wouldn't have survived the attack at Algarin's, for example, without those memories.  Also, it's no coincidence that Birgitte was introduced as a major player in the story at the same time that Rand began remembering his past life.  To some of us, it has been clear since then that Rand is Lews Therin, but to the rest, it should have been made clear at the end of The Gathering Storm, when Rand realizes that they are not two men, and never have been.  This is why, in the first clear instance of Rand receiving Lews Therin's memories in The Shadow Rising chapter 9, he speaks directly to Lanfear from those memories.  He is confused about the source of the memories, but yet, he knows that they are true.  This is why, as early as the Battle of Cairhien, Rand speaks of the Forsaken as if he knows them - because he does know them, from the memories. 

 

That he even has these memories is a sign of madness.

I think that the memories have actually caused a lot of his madness' date=' but there's nothing to indicate that the memories are a [i']result[/i] of his madness.

Then how did he get the memories? We know he is mad, that past life voices are a form of madness. How does he get the memories in the first place? The only theory we have is madness.

 

There are several theories at Theoryland, though you might only have that one theory here.  'Madness' as a reason for him to have those memories doesn't make any sense - we know the memories are real, so clearly they are not a result of madness.  The prevailing theory at Theoryland is 'taint barrier degradation': the idea that the taint has somehow corrupted the soul's barriers between the incarnation and its past life memories (and it is assumed that there are barriers between each life).  This would also explain why Birgitte is forgetting her older lives - her barriers are re-forming, since she was ripped out by Moghedien.  Rand seems to believe this theory, as he said in chapter 15 of The Gathering Storm that the taint gave him access to Lews Therin.  My first theory at Theoryland was that Rand started remembering Lews Therin's life because of his ventures into Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh - when Heroes are there in the afterlife, they remember all of their past lives, and also, Rand says that the pieces of himself seem to fit together better there.  There are several options that make more sense than the assumption that he got the memories as a result of madness.

 

Either the personality is "real" or a "construct"' date=' but that's really not that important, as he's mad either way.[/quote']Important to what? It is important to some things; not to others. I think a lot of his madness will be relieved after this point - denial is a hard thing to keep up on a daily basis like Rand has been doing since, at least, The Fires of Heaven.

It's not that important to anything.

 

It seems to be important to you, since you continue to argue about it.  Also, it is important to the interpretation of all situations dealing with 'the voice of Lews Therin', or situations where Lews Therin appears to take over, or try to.  It is important to understanding Rand's motivations, and his real emotions and thoughts as he tries to harden himself and suppress those emotions and thoughts.  When Rand fought Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod, did Lews Therin try to take over, or did Rand misinterpret what happened?  When Rand fought Lanfear, did he try to stop Lews Therin (the murdering madman) from taking over and killing Lanfear....or was it a battle between the part of Rand that knew she had to die, and the part of Rand that feared to kill her because of what he had done in the distant past?  The construct theory sheds a great deal of light on situations like these, while the real'ers are distracted by the red herrings.

[Mr Ares]

I fear you are mistaken. LTT died, and Rand was born, they are the same soul, but different personalities, different people.

No matter how many times you say it, it doesn't change the fact that Rand said otherwise.

What Rand said is irrelevant. Aside from the fact he could be wrong, and BS said he wasn't going to confirm it, the voice in his head and the real LTT needn't be the same. He can be talking about one but not the other. The real LTT, the man who lived and died thousands of years ago, is not Rand. They look different, act different, have different memories, personalities, abilities, physical tics. If two people so dissimilar cannot be considered separate, no-one can be.

 

11. Question: Yeah, OK. 3. There have been rumors that you have said that Mr. Jordan did not have anything in his notes about the voice of Lews Therin, whether it was a construct or not. That or that you had sai--[cut off]

 

11. Sanderson Answer: I would like to clarify this, thanks for asking. I will NOT say that it was not in the notes. However, Mr. Jordan did NOT want to reveal this information, and therefore I shall not ever either. Mr. Jordan did not want to reveal it.

If he already did reveal it in the book, why the insistence that he never will?

 

Are the LTT that died and the LTT in Rand's head the same person? If LTT-in-Rand's-head is a construct' date=' then Rand's comment says nothing at all about the real LTT.[/quote']

 

The Lews Therin in Rand's head is his subconscious, and Rand's comment verifies this. The impression that Rand had, that Lews Therin was another man, was fundamentally wrong. And illusion, essentially. The real Lews Therin is Rand, and always has been. This is why Rand himself feels the pain when he remembers Ilyena, especially early on before he gets practiced at suppressing it (and before he learns to harden himself to that pain), no matter how much he tries to attribute that memory to Lews Therin.

The real LTT is another man. Rand never knew Ilyena. He has another man's memories, and the LTT in his head is somehow a reaction to that. Real or construct, although he now believes it to be a construct. Really, it's irrelevant. That LTT is the one he was talking about, not the real one.

 

Rand should not have a dead man's memories in his head' date=' they are not his memories, they are LTT's.[/quote']They are his memories from a past life. Yes, he technically should not have them, but the Wheel obviously wanted him to have them.

Yes, obviously, because you say so, so clearly it must be true. I don't see why the Wheel need care about it, really. And a past life is not him. Different person, same soul.

It has little to do with 'I say so'.

It has everything to do with you say so. There is no evidence. He has memories, yes. He uses those memories, yes. The Wheel gave him those memories, opinion, not fact.

 

That he even has these memories is a sign of madness.

I think that the memories have actually caused a lot of his madness' date=' but there's nothing to indicate that the memories are a [i']result[/i] of his madness.

Then how did he get the memories? We know he is mad, that past life voices are a form of madness. How does he get the memories in the first place? The only theory we have is madness.

There are several theories at Theoryland, though you might only have that one theory here.

Then maybe you should do a better job of shooting down bad theories.

'Madness' as a reason for him to have those memories doesn't make any sense - we know the memories are real, so clearly they are not a result of madness.

Madness makes perfect sense. The reality of the memories says nothing about how he got them.

The prevailing theory at Theoryland is 'taint barrier degradation'

I'm aware of that theory. I shot it down. It's garbage, utterly unsupported by any facts. Not even a hint of it after twelve books. The taint causes madness. Now, if the madness can destroy the barrier, there's your explanation. Rand's madness, caused partially by the taint, resulted in LTT's memories, and the voice. But the taint itself did nothing more than drive him mad. Without the taint, it could have happened exactly the same way, as the taint doesn't cause any form of madness that couldn't happen without it.

This would also explain why Birgitte is forgetting her older lives - her barriers are re-forming, since she was ripped out by Moghedien.

No it wouldn't. It doesn't explain why the taint suddenly has a brand new magic power that only works on Rand, as opposed to doing what it has done on every man it has touched for the last three millennia - cause madness. We are even told it's a rare form of madness.

 

Either the personality is "real" or a "construct"' date=' but that's really not that important, as he's mad either way.[/quote']Important to what? It is important to some things; not to others. I think a lot of his madness will be relieved after this point - denial is a hard thing to keep up on a daily basis like Rand has been doing since, at least, The Fires of Heaven.

It's not that important to anything.

It seems to be important to you, since you continue to argue about it. Also, it is important to the interpretation of all situations dealing with 'the voice of Lews Therin', or situations where Lews Therin appears to take over, or try to.  It is important to understanding Rand's motivations, and his real emotions and thoughts as he tries to harden himself and suppress those emotions and thoughts.  When Rand fought Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod, did Lews Therin try to take over, or did Rand misinterpret what happened?  When Rand fought Lanfear, did he try to stop Lews Therin (the murdering madman) from taking over and killing Lanfear....or was it a battle between the part of Rand that knew she had to die, and the part of Rand that feared to kill her because of what he had done in the distant past? The construct theory sheds a great deal of light on situations like these, while the real'ers are distracted by the red herrings.

It's not important to anything, as it doesn't change what Rand does or why. For example, Lanfear. Rand's refusal to kill women is his own, yet he also recognises Lanfear as dangerous. Either he is arguing with himself, or he is arguing with someone else, but either way the part that wins is the part that doesn't kill women. The victor is unchanged, as is the reason for the fight. It only adjusts slightly the nature of the conflict. Either he is at war with a part of himself, or with someone else, but who wins is unchanged, and why he fights is unchanged. Thus unimportant.

[perrin51]

Wow. This seems fairly straight forward. Birgitte's memories were introduced into the story as a mechanism to normalize Rand's memories. She knows that she is supposed to remember all of her past lives and cherishes those memories. As a sane person who doesn't remember being a hero in T'A'R, Rand has no experience with this. Once he starts to have these memories, whatever their source, he assigns a "personality" to them. This a common coping mechanism, when the mind can't handle something far beyond it's experience or something extremely traumatic. As these memories are from his last life and he knows the name of that person he naturally assigns it the name LTT. The fact that the madness he accumulates from the shear amount of Sai'din that he has used facilitated this. All of this together gives him the excuse to rationalize "hearing a voice in his head".

[WWWwombat]

Semirhage gives us a very plausible theoryin KoD: that the LTT in Rand's head is a construct caused by Rand's madness but one that is real nonetheless.  The LTT is an aspect of Rand's personality that became disassociated from the rest of him but it seems that Semirhage says that it is the aspect of himself that corresponds to Lews Therin.  I know taking one of the Forsaken at face value is always risky but i don't think she was lying and it makes sense.  I also have to agree with Luckers and Ares that it doesn't really matter whether this LTT was technically the real LTT.  Either way it was a knowledgeable, useful, and quite insane aspect of Rand.  All we need to know is that Rand heard a voice in his head and started remembering things.  Also, I agree with Ares that "taint barrier degradation" is crap for exactly the same reason.  Furthermore, at the most extreme of Rand's barrier degradation he is holding massive amounts of untainted saidin and it is the wholesome power of saidin that seems to cause the barrier degradation and personality reintegration.

[Luckers]

lol, was that Davian?  In any case, the Lews Therin people have NOTHING on the Asmodean people, so I doubt that fervency has anything to do with why RJ didn't want to reveal the answer to this.  People are crazy about a lot of things, and I've seen flamewars here and at Wotmania over a whole host of issues.

 

I've no idea who it was--the guy who PM'd me didn't say, just said they were opening threads with 'haha! We were right! Take that Luckers!'. And I responded as kindly as I could saying 'I don't care'.

 

Also, Ares, Terez, if you want to discuss it play nice. Tensions are already building--and thats cool, passion and all that--but if it crosses the line I won't hesitate to shut this thread down.

[Vorkia]

I think that we are forgetting the similarities between Mat and Rand as far as the memories goes.  Mat has memories as well.  Yes he was "given" them after visiting the Finn, however if we remember, Mat was spitting out the Old Tongue at times without knowing it before his visit to the Finn. (I can't remember if there were anything tactical that spilled out before the Finn).  

 

There is a difference, but the memories themselves are not a sign of madness.  For Mat the Fin removed the barrier, for Rand it is believed that the taint did the same thing. (not saying I agree or disagree-I haven't made up my mind yet).  I can not see how the barrier being removed (or weakened) can have no affect-as far as sanity goes-on one person and have a maddening affect on the other whether or not channeling is involved.

[richnewton82]

.

[WWWwombat]

In one confusing part of one of the books Mat says something to the effect that he had some of his old memories before he went through the doorway.