The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[Ged]

Well, 'similar to' is not really 'the same as'.

 

I'm not personally sure I'd consider giving someone pain that had no negative effect on the body real torture... Its kinda more like having a nightmare.

 

Verin did do fairly well, although the Black Ajah hunters should really have been a whole lot more effective, making her unnecessary.

 

... and the escape of the BA is just lame. Someone should've pointed out that a purge in the Rebel camp might alert the BA in the Tower.

 

Egwene should re-purpose the Red Ajah to hunting down Black Ajah members. Make it into the law enforcement arm of the White Tower.

[coteaz]

I'm just surprised that the 3000 years that the WT has existed that not one non-darkfriend aes sedai has thought "hey lets use the oaths to hunt down the black ajah".

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

They don't want to even admit it exists...

[Ged]

They lack brains until the plot allows them to have them.

[ohaitharguiz]

The Aes Sedai are really the pinnacle of stupidity in this book. If they acted like they do without the power, they would be the most hopeless and worhtless group of stuck up valley girls the planet has ever seen.

[Ged]

The Aes Sedai really are incredibly dumb... but so is everyone else, from Rand, to the Forsaken, to: probably the Dark One.

[coteaz]

Well we have the benefit of hindsight, and the benefit of knowing what is actually going on, they have to deal with what they have, they have done an OK job at best, The aes sedai however have made is so that people look at them with mistrust based on the oaths, and because of being separate from the world, they see themselves as the be all and end all, and thus think they can never be at fault.

[Ged]

Even if you ignore hindsight. Lets look at obvious failures by people other than the AS.

 

Where Aes Sedai manage to use gateways for supplies, and where Rand has Asha'man that can open gateways wide enough to move decent sized carts across.... Rand is too stupid to use his Asha'man to directly move the grain with gateways himself.

 

And generally there are just countless missed opportunities everywhere.

 

The Black Ajah were apparently not completely hopeless, considering that most of them managed to escape Egwene's trap.. although admittedly Egwene's methods weren't secure enough, so its understandable.

[coteaz]

Rand didn't use asha'man because he had other things for them to do.

[Ged]

Not right now he doesn't. If he can spare 100 Asha'man that were previously doing nothing for Ituralde, he can commit 10 to moving food. Food is always more important anyway, since you need your societies/economies functional and producing, so they can support the overall war effort.

 

Its also entirely possible that you can just tie off gateways. Maybe the knots wouldn't last very long, but an hourly renewal of the gateway might be just fine.

(We know from Graendal that that is an option).

 

Heck Rand could just make a gateway network himself. Pick a central location, open up a bunch of gateways to different places, and tie them off. Imagine the sheer amount of benefit to commerce, general communication, and to his war efforts.

[coteaz]

I assumed the 100 were off the ones he sent into Arad Doman.

[Ged]

The Asha'man seriously don't need to all be committed to soldier duties. They're too useful for other stuff. And what difference would losing a couple of Asha'man really make to the rest of what he's doing. If he's running short on Asha'man for his activities, the solution isn't to not use them for regular stuff, its to start recruiting harder.

 

The idiot still hasn't started recruiting from the Aiel. That's probably 2K or so male channelers there.

 

(I think we're side tracking the Black Ajah thread)

 

On the Black Ajah, hindsight says that Egwene should've held off on the cleansing until she had the White Tower whole again and could take out all of the BA in one go without there being much warning for anyone.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

However, it was also probably wise for Egwene to have done so.  Sheriam was plotting to have her killed under Mesaana's instructions....

 

She might have died if she hadn't moved her hand.

[Ged]

I remember Mesana commanding Sheriam to have Egwene deposed, not killed. There'd been no attacks on her so far, so there was no reason to believe that she was going to be physically attacked.

 

But anyway, I said in hindsight, although I think in that position I'd have also wanted to catch them all without giving them warning, just in case there were additional securities built in to the Shadow's system, exactly for situations like this.

 

But then... I just plain don't see how the Black Ajah hunters couldn't much more quickly capture and test women themselves. Who cares if you're stepping on some toes. Get women alone, capture, test, eliminate, and move on to the next. With the 4th oath, nothing should've been able to stop them.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Getting them alone was not so easy.  Because rarely in that time did sisters ever travel alone.  They would have to be careful, because alerting the BA to their plans would also mean instant assassination at the first opportunity.

[Ged]

AS that were captured and forced to swear oaths could not reveal the info. Most AS could've been invited by AS of their own ajah for casual meetings (that would turn out to be: not so casual).

 

After a point, they could call meetings of more than a few. Speed would really be a much more important thing in something like this than taking so long that people start recognizing oddities in people they know.

 

Nobody tried this in thousands of years... no one has any reason to expect that something like this is being done.

[benr]

Mesaana could have almost immediately known that Sheriam had been captured/stilled/executed; she had already taken a finger from her (and no-one questioned why she hadn't asked for healing for her "accident"?  I know they couldn't have re-grown the finger, but a bandage?). Mesaana seemed to be in regular contact with Sheriam, so she must have alerted the BA in the Tower to git.

 

How much of what Verin told Mat was lying?

 

Did Verin convince Elaida to release Egwene?  If Egwene were still in her cell, Verin couldn't have given her the books.  Did she have a back-up Sister in case Elaida had had Egwene executed? 

 

How was Verin so sure of her dates for Mat?  The Horn makes sense, but there could be more.

 

Mat saw lots of letters just like his.  We figure one must be for Perrin, because Verin said that she was going either to Mat or Perrin, but Verin could lie.  Who else, and what would she tell them?

 

The Mesaana thing still has me puzzled.  Verin seems to clear Laras of any DF tendencies, but Verin could lie.  Gotta keep working on that one.

 

I had thought that Verin was Black, but feel embarrassed to have never made the connection to her doing it for the Light.  That was well done; explained alot of contradictions.   

[Astus]

Something just crossed my mind. I thought that Alviarin had got her hands on a couple of the BA hunters at KOD. Or was she planning to?

I remember a passage saying one of them had gone missing though I'm probably remembering wrong because it's late at night or early in the morning depending on your taste.

[lillcheese]

Mesaana could have almost immediately known that Sheriam had been captured/stilled/executed; she had already taken a finger from her (and no-one questioned why she hadn't asked for healing for her "accident"?  I know they couldn't have re-grown the finger, but a bandage?). Mesaana seemed to be in regular contact with Sheriam, so she must have alerted the BA in the Tower to git.

 

How much of what Verin told Mat was lying?

 

Did Verin convince Elaida to release Egwene?  If Egwene were still in her cell, Verin couldn't have given her the books.  Did she have a back-up Sister in case Elaida had had Egwene executed? 

 

How was Verin so sure of her dates for Mat?  The Horn makes sense, but there could be more.

 

Mat saw lots of letters just like his.  We figure one must be for Perrin, because Verin said that she was going either to Mat or Perrin, but Verin could lie.  Who else, and what would she tell them?

 

The Mesaana thing still has me puzzled.  Verin seems to clear Laras of any DF tendencies, but Verin could lie.  Gotta keep working on that one.

 

I had thought that Verin was Black, but feel embarrassed to have never made the connection to her doing it for the Light.  That was well done; explained alot of contradictions.   

 

I don't think Verin had any reason to lie to Mat about looking for him, nor to Egwene about Laras.  The only reason I can think of for her to lie would be if she wasn't really on the side of the Light. 

 

As for the dates, the 10 days was probably to give her time to try and get unbound to the shadow or die.  I think the 30 was just to make him open the letter.  She probably knows him well enough to know that he'll never be able to wait so long without just looking at it.

[fikkie77]

Did anyone notice the reaction of Egwene when Verin told her her dress was green?

Egwene asked Verin whether or not she had held the oath rod, which was one of the major theories concerning Verin and her lie about being sent by Moiraine. I had the feeling Egwene's remark was meant to mention that old theory for the last time.

[Dovienya]

I've said this in other threads, but I'll repeat it here:  Verin is friggin' awesome.  She's always been my favorite minor character and I couldn't wait to see what she was up to.  I really liked where Jordan/Sanderson took us in this book.

 

Two points:

 

Since Egwene knows that it's possible to turn a sister with the whole 13/13 trick, shouldn't she have asked the black sisters whether they were forced?  I don't know if any of them were actually turned that way, but it seems like a possibility.

 

Also, I think it's possible that Verin's letters to Mat and Perrin (and possibly others) contain her understanding/research of their part in the prophecies.  She's always seemed interested in their part in the story.  Maybe it's guidance or encouragement?

[JenniferL]

Why would it matter if they were turned involuntarily? As far as we know, there is no way to bring them back.

[Ilyena]

Did Verin convince Elaida to release Egwene?  If Egwene were still in her cell, Verin couldn't have given her the books.  Did she have a back-up Sister in case Elaida had had Egwene executed? 

 

Since Egwene knows that it's possible to turn a sister with the whole 13/13 trick, shouldn't she have asked the black sisters whether they were forced?  I don't know if any of them were actually turned that way, but it seems like a possibility.

 

 

 

First, Verin told Egwene that she was glad Egwene was able to get herself out of that dungeon as she really didn't want to have to meet her down there. So we know that she was willing to take alot of risks to speak to Egwene.

Second, the 13/13 idea shouldn't have mattered. Even if Egwene was willing to spare those who were turned it would be a HUGE pain to sort out who was lying just to save their skins and who was telling the truth... not to mention how to turn them back.

Quick question: Alanna traveled with Verin for a VERY long time... any thoughts on Alanna being a BA (maybe even an undercover one like Verin and thus not mentioned in Verin's book)?? and what would it mean for Rand if she was? Nothing at all was mentioned about her in this book and I'm very curious to find out where that plot line is headed.

[Shard]

Yes RJ did address this issue as well, those forcefully turned would not feel any desire to GO back. It seems once they are turned, they are turned for good. It seems Verin saved herself from that fate by willingly joining and thus being able to reveal all of them. Who knew Verin would turn out to be like Snape in the end.

[ohaitharguiz]

Why would it matter if they were turned involuntarily? As far as we know, there is no way to bring them back.

 

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