The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[ed2funy]

true....

but AS have been known to make mistakes...

many of them

[Sharaman]

Egwene knows one Black sister (apart from Elza RIP) is sworn to RaT. IIRC, Elza's PoV mentioned another one, who seems to have slipped by Verin's list. I wonder whether Eg will demean herself and warn Rand about the lass she knows? Also, does the second BA in his camp then turn into a deep undercover agent since she will have been "cleared" by the Amyrlin. Neither has played an overt role yet though both/ either may have been involved in passing messages and setting up the Semi rescue.

There could be some mild entertainment here.

 

 

[Shazzai]

Funny things about the Purge:

 

1:  The loophole in the BA oath is really, really dumb. And yet, Egwene fails to take advantage of it.  "Your execution is scheduled for 45 minutes from now, you are less than an hour from death.  Is there anything you'd like to confess to redeem your soul?"  Note that they are still unable to betray the Dark One, they are just able to share their secrets.  I would think being unable to share any secret without being about to die might also be something of a problem.  It's hard to conspire if you are unable to let ANYONE in on something you consider a secret, even other BA.

 

2:  Was Egwene's trick about Sheriam's red hair actually useful?  All Sheriam had to do was say, "I'm sorry, I thought you asked me if I torture children".  Oath-bound AS are perfectly capable of saying false things as long as they BELIEVE they are telling the truth.  They all KNOW this.  Or is this a change in how the OR is portrayed as working?

 

Of course, Sheriam reacted incorrectly and condemned herself with her, "I misspoke" line.  Suddenly I want to see an AS with Tourette's.  Or possibly dementia, that would be kind of entertaining too.

 

 

[Durinax]

1:  The loophole in the BA oath is really, really dumb. And yet, Egwene fails to take advantage of it.  "Your execution is scheduled for 45 minutes from now, you are less than an hour from death.  Is there anything you'd like to confess to redeem your soul?"  Note that they are still unable to betray the Dark One, they are just able to share their secrets.  I would think being unable to share any secret without being about to die might also be something of a problem.  It's hard to conspire if you are unable to let ANYONE in on something you consider a secret, even other BA.

 

I agree, I dont understand why or how there would be a loophole. but about not being able to tell secrets, the oath is probably phrased so they cant speak black ajah secrets to anyone except black sisters

[Sharaman]

Any BA Egwene has caught is already free of the oaths to GLoD and rebound to the original three oaths.

Unless they all tried to make a run for it and refused to touch the Rod at all.

Whether they talk or not is therefore, probably up to them.

Egwene decided when purging the Rebels in the camp that she wouldn't take the risk of holding all these women and offer amnesty etc, in the hopes of getting information. That was possibly the wrong tack to take since the BA now know that they're due for execution and talking would only get them in hot water with GLoD after they die.

I wonder what happened to the three or four that the BA hunters have already caught and forcibly converted?

 

[Luckers]

2:  Was Egwene's trick about Sheriam's red hair actually useful?  All Sheriam had to do was say, "I'm sorry, I thought you asked me if I torture children".  Oath-bound AS are perfectly capable of saying false things as long as they BELIEVE they are telling the truth.  They all KNOW this.  Or is this a change in how the OR is portrayed as working?

 

Yes Sheriam could have pulled that, and yes logically it might have had some potential logic--wouldn't have saved her from having to swear the Oaths again. Not after seizing the source and lying. But prior to her being made to prove it with an Oath it provides her with reasonable doubt.

 

 

 

[BladeDancer]

Verin is able to spill the beans because she is poisoned and due to die within the hour. But could she not have been Healed? I cannot remember if Egwene could Heal but there were definitely Aes Sedai within 15 minutes who could Heal. Was the poison that Verin took able to be healed? We have seen other fatal poisons successfully Healed - that same night Siuan Sanche Healed Gareth Byrne of that assassin's poison and previously Moraine healed Matt from the Darkhounds bite. Aes Sedai always claim that Healing can cure anything short of death and the 3 Oaths mean they were not lying about this (Black Ajah possibly excepted). Could it have been possible for Verin to (be made to) vomit up her stomach contents and then be Healed (possibly several times over a period) to restore the damage done by the poison?

[Sharaman]

Egwene knows the poison and its fatal effects from her Wisdom training and she knows about healing (Even though she can't heal herself) and all she has to do is call for help. But she doesn't even once consider healing in her PoV. So either she doesn't think it's feasible with that poison or she's ruthless enough to hear Verin out and let her die. Your guess is as good as mine. 

[Shazzai]

The red hair trick with Sheriam was cute wordplay, but I just wanted another opinion on whether that was a viable method of smoking out BA members.

 

About BA members being free of the GLoD oaths:  I think most of them probably refused and tried to run for it.  We saw how much torture it took to get the BA in the tower to give up their oaths.

[Crael123]

to bladedancer- love the sig  ;D

 

I would agree that Egwene was extremely stupid not to take advantage of the weakness of the BA.

[randfandom]

1:  The loophole in the BA oath is really, really dumb. And yet, Egwene fails to take advantage of it.  "Your execution is scheduled for 45 minutes from now, you are less than an hour from death.  Is there anything you'd like to confess to redeem your soul?"

 

My guess is the loophole was added intentionally. It was Ishamael who created the Black Ajah and, I am guessing, was responsible for setting up their oaths - not the DO (who I doubt understands humans enough for such subtleties). Perhaps Ishamael subconsciously or not wanted to leave a way out for himself?

As for Egwene taking advantage of it to extract information from the BA, I don't think she had the time - to ensure noone spills the beans, she had to act fast and secret. In addition, there is no real way to trust such a confession, and in my opinion, the loophole only works for those who genuinely want to abandon the shadow. We saw only two such example - Ingtar and Verin - judging by their serenity in their last hour, both of whom appeared to have saved their souls by truly reneging and accepting their fate. Bribing BA with salvation in return to confession would not have worked.

 

[lillcheese]

Egwene knows the poison and its fatal effects from her Wisdom training and she knows about healing (Even though she can't heal herself) and all she has to do is call for help. But she doesn't even once consider healing in her PoV. So either she doesn't think it's feasible with that poison or she's ruthless enough to hear Verin out and let her die. Your guess is as good as mine.   

 

Egwene couldn't channel because of the Forkroot.  The Red guards had left already.  She was in the novice quarters, none of whom could be expected to heal a powerful poison without seeing a demonstration weave first.  Running around the Tower to find someone strong & skilled enough to heal the poison would probably have taken too long.  Plus, no way to be sure that the person found isn't black. 

 

Or, she could sit there and listen to what the woman had to say.  She made the right choice.

[Sharaman]

There's a full sister, albeit a young one, standing guard right outside her door.

All Egwene has to do is pop her head out and say "Verin Sedai is ill, please call Doesine or some other yellow sister to come and heal her immediately."

 

[randfandom]

There's a full sister, albeit a young one, standing guard right outside her door.

All Egwene has to do is pop her head out and say "Verin Sedai is ill, please call Doesine or some other yellow sister to come and heal her immediately."

 

Nope - Egwene sent her guards to deal with the Silviana crisis and it took time to send in a replacement. The sister you are referring to showed up right after Verin died.

[Sharaman]

Hmm you're possibly right - still doesn't alter the fact that she didn't even consider the healing option or stick her head out and yell.

I'd assume either she knows healing wouldn't work, or she is ruthless enough to see things through.

We don't see a PoV that says something " We're alone - she'll be dead by the time I could fetch help so --".

Nor do we see "Let her talk stuff through".

All I can remember is Egwene thinking the poison is always fatal, it brings death peacefully, within an hour of drinking it. 

So any interpretation is possible. 

 

[thewalrus777]

Verin knew she had to die, to reveal herself and her secrets. Only in her last hour could she do it. Verin seemed very intent on dying. I believe if she would have lived after her reveal, something much worse than dying peacefully would've happened. She would've defied the GLoTD and wouldn't have lived long anyhow. SH would have paid her a visit. I don't know about anyone else but a peaceful death is preferrable to one by the likes of the Chosen or SH. I think Egwene knew it was pointless to try and save Verin. She was probably going to die one way or another for her betrayal. Egwene just decided to continue on fighting to make the Tower whole.

[fikkie77]

If Egwene had asked her guard for help/healing, then Verin wouldn't be certain that it was her last hour and couldn't have betrayed the Black Ajah. Her only possibility would have been right after her confession, but it was already too late by then.

 

I guess Egwene was wise enough to understand this, which is because she didn't ask for help.

[Shadow Rider]

I do agree that egwene's reign started on a sour note, but that's not her fault in the slightest, it's the flawed aes sedai system of tradition that forebade even mention of the BA, that let the BA get such a grip around the tower's throat.

 

 

Many great nations were forged in bloodshed.

[Durinax]

I do agree that egwene's reign started on a sour note, but that's not her fault in the slightest, it's the flawed aes sedai system of tradition that forebade even mention of the BA, that let the BA get such a grip around the tower's throat.

 

 

Many great nations were forged in bloodshed.

yes but most of those fall to even greater bloodshed

[Aquarius]

I do agree that egwene's reign started on a sour note, but that's not her fault in the slightest, it's the flawed aes sedai system of tradition that forebade even mention of the BA, that let the BA get such a grip around the tower's throat.

 

 

Many great nations were forged in bloodshed.

yes but most of those fall to even greater bloodshed

I would almost say "all nations" instead of "many great nations" here. Most often in history, a nation is born out of people gathering at one time or another under a single leadership to fight a common enemy or out of necessity.