The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[benr]

how many times have WoT characters disguised themselves as a servant of some sort?

 

Moghedien did, in The Shadow Rising, to spy on Liandrin and co., and Moghedien was punished often for her pains.

 

LOL @ Moghedien.

 

She wasn't really punished, though. There's no way a Forsaken would submit themselves to that.

 

 

Moghedien herself says that, when she was sent to be "punished", she used compulsion to make the punisher think that they actually had punished her, but that it never happened.  I think she was talking to one of the BA sisters that suddenly realized that she had been doing that to Moggy.

[Talya]

concerning Mesaana:

 

I do believe she is an Aes Sedai and simply passed the test or something (she probably had to swear the oaths too and she might be in for a surprise when she won't be able to access the rod :P).

 

If she poses as a non-AS, what about the 'apple cheeked accepted' we saw a few times in the earlier books? I don't remember where (or if she was identified later), it just came to my mind.

 

I wondered if she was an Accepted or Novice, but I too remembered that dress. Of course if she did take the oaths with everyone else, would she think she was lying if she said she wan't a darkfriend. She actually wouldn't see herself as that, she is afterall Chosen. So to her, she wouldn't be lying by saying she wasn't a Dark Friend!

[csarmi]

Yey but it's had to believe that Egwene AND the whole tower can be so stupid as to allow loopholes like that. I mean, Egwene's got her black book (explaining the forsaken) + she knows Mesaana is in the tower AND we've seen several Aes Sedai clever enough to realize how to word it well (including Romanda, at least one hunter and someome I can't remember not to mention Siuan who knows what it means not to be binded).

[seraphim]

 

Verin has A LOT of info in her head and I'm sure the letters are passing along info.  She gave Egwene the BA names because that was what Egwene needed from her.  I still think Verin is the one who knows where the Horn of Valere is (Siuan couldn't have been dumb enough to leave it in the Tower).  

 

How could Siuan get the horn out of the tower when she, or rather Min, was barely able to sneak themselves out?

[seraphim]

we'll have to call that poetic license then on RJ's part, because the universality of printing presses does not inevitably lead to a universally literate population. most developing countries don't even have 90% literacy today.

you see universal literacy come about in the western world following the industrial revolution in England and the decision to create a public education system that makes kids go to school until, wait for it, 12!

We know that public education doesn't exist in Randland because Rand is really proud of OPENING UP public schools and leaving a legacy, which is actually becoming a crucial theme in the final books. Anyway, not the most important point...

 

Even from the beginning of the story, an isolated village cut off from everyone save peddlers and merchants making infrequent visits, the Two Rivers has a small collection of books available for anyone to read in the Wine Spring Inn.  The boys often mention, "The Travels of Jaim Farstrider", as their favorite.  Also, Matt notes that the Aiel ignore more common goods from the peddlers but snap up any available books.  Rhuarc has a small collection of books that he keeps among his personal belongings in the office he shares with the First.

Rand's new schools were for enlightenment, innovations, and experiments- they were not public schools to learn ABC's and some simple math. 

[richnewton82]

.

[Charlz Guybon]

ya the schools Rand opens are universities, not grade schools. RJ envisioned the world as a 17th century world just prior to the invention of the steam engine and mechanization. There were school houses. We just haven't seen them. Otherwise how would all the characters know how to read? It is there, it just isn't talked about.

 

Yeah, literacy like that isn't impossible as long as it's valued by society.

Puritan New England was extremely literate because everyone had to be able to read the bible. 

The North had 90% literacy by the Civil War and the South was not that far beyond at 70%.

[OnePowerRULES]

First time poster, but here is my take on Messana...

 

From TGS we get important clues to her description:

Prologue pg 37 "Demandred folded his arms remaining stranding as Mesaana seated herself. She had chin length  dark hair and watery blue eyes."

 

Ch 12 Unexpected Encounters pg 203 "Seaine was the stately woman in whire robes and silver trim. A Sitter from the White Ajah, She had thick black hair and eyebrows, and watery blue eyes that regarded Egwene with an even expression."

 

We all know that it is possible to change one's appearance with the power... disguising one's eyes is likely not something one would do long term. Disguises work best when one sticks close to your original appearance. So hair color: essentially the same, eye color dead on. The phrasing is too specific to be an accident. Especially given what Graendal says what she knows about Messana's activities in the white tower. Graendal says she know that Messana is posing as Aes Sedai or what passes for them in this age. Graendal is not one to make an error regarding this. She says she has her people monitoring her, so that means she knows who she is posing as.

 

That is how I see it. As soon as I read the prologue I filed that description away and when I came across her description again as Seaine Herimon it clicked and all of her actions thereafter are consistent with the descriptions of Messana's personality that we have been given previously. She considers herself one of the Chosen, a mere Darkfriend is too lowely for one such as her. The derisive view the Forsaken have of Darkfriends is well catalogued. So in reswearing her Oaths she is protected, in her mind she isn't, she is "Chosen", a few small steps below the DO himself...

[Sentinel78]

We had Seaine's POV in Chpt 32 of Crown of Swords.  Seaine is not Mesaana.  Seaine has been leading the hunt for the Black Ajah.

[OnePowerRULES]

"We had Seaine's POV in Chpt 32 of Crown of Swords.  Seaine is not Mesaana.  Seaine has been leading the hunt for the Black Ajah."

 

Seaine's POV isn't conclusive. We only get what information from the POV that the author gives us... To hunt the BA on assignment from the Amyrlin is not proof that she isn't Messaana. Leading the hunt is the best way to be above reproach...

 

Also you can't categorically state that she isn't until we have a full reveal. Just your opinion, just as that she is, is mine.

[Sharaman]

"We had Seaine's POV in Chpt 32 of Crown of Swords.  Seaine is not Mesaana.  Seaine has been leading the hunt for the Black Ajah."

 

Seaine's POV isn't conclusive. We only get what information from the POV that the author gives us... To hunt the BA on assignment from the Amyrlin is not proof that she isn't Messaana. Leading the hunt is the best way to be above reproach...

 

Also you can't categorically state that she isn't until we have a full reveal. Just your opinion, just as that she is, is mine.

It's quite clear from her PoV that she's scared when she thinks Elaida is telling her to hunt BA. Unlikely that Messy would be scared. 

She and Pevara experiment with removing oaths from the rod, and giggle while telling ridiculous "moon is green cheese" type lies. Again, unlikely that Messy would have bound herself to the rod at all - in fact, we know from the description when Shaidar Haran punishes Messy that she isn't really ageless-faced.

Seaine is scared all over again when she realises all Elaida wanted was some proof that Alviarin was sending secret letters and she's put herself out on a limb chasing BA because she misunderstood.

She wouldn't be scared if she was Messy.

Lots of little subsidiary details.

Nice pick up on the physical description but it's a big stretch to make it fit.

 

   

[OnePowerRULES]

"We had Seaine's POV in Chpt 32 of Crown of Swords.  Seaine is not Mesaana.  Seaine has been leading the hunt for the Black Ajah."

 

Seaine's POV isn't conclusive. We only get what information from the POV that the author gives us... To hunt the BA on assignment from the Amyrlin is not proof that she isn't Messaana. Leading the hunt is the best way to be above reproach...

 

Also you can't categorically state that she isn't until we have a full reveal. Just your opinion, just as that she is, is mine.

It's quite clear from her PoV that she's scared when she thinks Elaida is telling her to hunt BA. Unlikely that Messy would be scared. 

She and Pevara experiment with removing oaths from the rod, and giggle while telling ridiculous "moon is green cheese" type lies. Again, unlikely that Messy would have bound herself to the rod at all - in fact, we know from the description when Shaidar Haran punishes Messy that she isn't really ageless-faced.

Seaine is scared all over again when she realises all Elaida wanted was some proof that Alviarin was sending secret letters and she's put herself out on a limb chasing BA because she misunderstood.

She wouldn't be scared if she was Messy.

Lots of little subsidiary details.

Nice pick up on the physical description but it's a big stretch to make it fit.

 

   

 

Good points. Had forgotten some of those... Still not 100% convinced she isn't, but I may have to reassess.

[seraphim]

.....and to a sitting target for any forsaken

 

[accelerate]

Random question that I'm sure has been asked before, but I haven't been able to find an answer.

 

Let's say the Dark One does lose. Let's say not only lose but is destroyed (if that's possible?) along with all of the Forsaken. What happens to all the darkfriends then? Would they still be bound to the oaths? Would they still be fighting for the shadow? Or even if the Dark One is only re-imprisoned and not truly vanquished, what would the darkfriends do without any leadership? Go back to their "normal" lives and bide their time? Go into hiding? Go insane? Mass suicide?

[Declan]

if he can be destroyed i believe without a doubt that people will not still be held to their oaths because it is strictly through his power that the oaths hold. unless there is an oath rod, to which even if there is dark friends could worm their way out of them since he is dead and are unable to serve a destroyed....thing. but i kind of dig the idea of them all going mad or mass suicide; sounds like something the DO would build into his system.

[jadelollipop]

Who else got letters as well? Mat saw a bunch in her bag.

 

I thought what Mat saw was several copies of the posters of Mat and Perrin.

I thought that Verin was collecting them to prevent Darkfriends from searching for them...will have to double check I guess :)

[fikkie77]

if he can be destroyed i believe without a doubt that people will not still be held to their oaths because it is strictly through his power that the oaths hold. unless there is an oath rod, to which even if there is dark friends could worm their way out of them since he is dead and are unable to serve a destroyed....thing. but i kind of dig the idea of them all going mad or mass suicide; sounds like something the DO would build into his system.

If the DO dies, all oaths to him are done with. You can't betray someone who is dead! You can at least say to yourself it's not treason. Not that it would matter: all darkfriends became as such out of selfishness. They will remain selfish if the DO would die.

[Declan]

which is what i was saying.....

[cleantoe]

Not that it would matter: all darkfriends became as such out of selfishness. They will remain selfish if the DO would die.

 

That's not true. There are those who were forcibly converted by a circle of 13, or in Verin's case, threatened with execution.

 

Sure, saving your own life by swearing to the DO could be seen as selfish...but come on! No one wants to die, and in the end, she redeemed herself.

[Seaine Sedai]

To those who were debating whether Seaine is Messy or not. (ha!) I'll tell you EXACTLY what was in her POV to conclude she's Seaine and ONLY Seaine.

 

Messy had not been out of the DEEP SLEEP for but a few years, both Seaine and Pevara had been SITTERS for DECADES.  Not only that, but Seaine thinks back and remembers exactly why Pevara picked the RED AJAH, not because of some weird man-hating dyke tendency most of the Reds had (Pevara had been nearly punished in her early years as a Red for saying a little too loud that she wished she could have a warder)...Pevara had picked the Red Ajah to hunt Darkfriends.  So that was how Seaine knew Pevara (weren't they close enough to be pillow friends as novices and maybe Accepted?) was the one sister in the tower she could trust was NOT Black Ajah. 

 

Now, while Messy had to have replaced someone in the Tower...there's NO WAY especially in POV she could have copied Seaine to details that would have been in the back of her mind for nearly a century, give or take a couple of decades.  While the Forsaken tend to be good with their methods, (except when they get petty and sloppy) they aren't THAT good.  Messy would have studied her habits and who were friends were in this time and tried to copy that.  It probably wouldn't occur to her (not to mention how freaking time consuming it would be) to siphon all of Seaine's knowledge about everyone she had ever known in the Tower, which is what she would have had to do to remember some minute little details like things she remembered about Pevara when they were girlhood friends.

 

(Watery) blue eyes are not entirely uncommon in Randland anyway.  Neither is black hair.

[jemron]

I'm confused...  You say you have proof that Messy is Seaine and ONLY Seaine... Then you completely prove with the rest of your comment that she is NOT Seaine.  Typo?  Or am I missing some sarcasm?

[BladeDancer]

I'm confused...  You say you have proof that Messy is Seaine and ONLY Seaine... Then you completely prove with the rest of your comment that she is NOT Seaine.  Typo?  Or am I missing some sarcasm?

 

I believe the 'she' that the poster Seaine Sedai is referring to in her second sentence is not Moggy but Seaine (the character not the poster). So Seaine Sedai was saying that Seaine was Seaine and ONLY Seaine. LOL

[vicegod]

Just a quick thought, if anyone cares to respond to a guy who's rarely posted here, but I noticed something today when picking up TGS and opening to a random spot. In the section where we get Sheriam's POV and she is ordered by Mesanna to steal the dream ter'angreal she is told that for every one of the ter'angreal she is unable to deliver she will loose a finger or a toe.

Later, when Egwene is back in the rebel camp she notices that Sheriam's left hand is bandaged. I would assume that she lost at least one finger. So...

 

We have at least one ter'angreal unaccounted for. We are told all of them are gone when Egwene is getting ready for the assault on the tower, so there must have been at least one of the nineteen missing when Sheriam went to retrieve them.

 

Any guesses on who has it and why?

 

Don't know if anyone has posted this elsewhere, so sorry if this is a repeat

[ed2funy]

Siuan...

 

She had it all along.

[TheAngryDruid]

Siuan...

 

She had it all along.

 

I think that is what RJ/BS intended, but this also could be a mistake, in fact, I think it is.

 

From one of Siuan's POV's (or maybe Egwene's), we learn that the only reason she has hung on to her dream ter'angreal is because the Hall thinks Leane had it when she was captured.

 

So, when Mesaana comes to Sheriam and asks her how many dream ter'angreal they have, Sheriam would think that one is in the Tower, and shouldn't count it.

 

Either Sheriam made a mistake when talking to Mesaana, or RJ/BS did, or there is another ter'angreal in the camp somewhere.