White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Aiemond]

 

 

 

 

I don't have the quote, but i remember RJ saying something about people who aren't necessarily Ta'varen, but still the pattern bends around them, (though not to the extent of a ta'varen).  This whole series has been about the 3 ta'varen from the two rivers, i think it would be a bit too fanficky for egwene to suddenly be revealed as another Ta'varen.  She's definately the most important thread in the pattern outside of Rand, Perrin, and Mat.

 

I have never seen RJ say anything like that. He has however said that none of the main female characters are ta'veren, which rules out Egwene.

 

Rand needs Egwene to be Amyrlin, so the Pattern has made it happen for him. Its an effect of Rand's ta'vareness.

 

And we have seen what seems to be a giant expansion of this effect for Mat, and that means Rand (and prolly perrin too) will have an even larger bending.

[Mr. Micawber]

Err, yea, Adelorna's comments on the matter imply that Egwene is handling a bitchin' amount of the Power right then.

 

I felt that RJ had to have written a little bit of this scene, because, among living people, only Israelis who flew against Sinai and Golan in '73, and Americans who flew in 'Nam have any idea how awful it is to be facing serious anti-aircraft opposition.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Rand needs Egwene to be Amyrlin, so the Pattern has made it happen for him. Its an effect of Rand's ta'vareness.

 

Tried to argue this some months ago.  Didn't get anywhere.  Rand's indirect ta'veren effects have the potential to be global in scope, not just local.  Maybe you'll convince them.

[taliefer]

are the effects of angreal and sa'angreal additive, or multiplitive?

 

ie, do they only allow someone to channel X amount more saiden/saidar, or is the extra amount it allows more for a stronger person? or a circle

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

 

 

I don't have the quote, but i remember RJ saying something about people who aren't necessarily Ta'varen, but still the pattern bends around them, (though not to the extent of a ta'varen).  This whole series has been about the 3 ta'varen from the two rivers, i think it would be a bit too fanficky for egwene to suddenly be revealed as another Ta'varen.  She's definately the most important thread in the pattern outside of Rand, Perrin, and Mat.

 

I have never seen RJ say anything like that. He has however said that none of the main female characters are ta'veren, which rules out Egwene.

 

Rand needs Egwene to be Amyrlin, so the Pattern has made it happen for him. Its an effect of Rand's ta'vareness.

 

And we have seen what seems to be a giant expansion of this effect for Mat, and that means Rand (and prolly perrin too) will have an even larger bending.

 

Course, there is Egwenes 'dreaming' that shows the tower getting attacked, and that test as accepted, combined with the 'dream ring' verin gave her, a more than 'accurate' depiction of one of the many possible futures (similar to the way stones, only combined with dream ring, gave one far more true).

 

IT could be alike what Min's viewings...

 

Also consider this.

http://www.wotmud.org/directory/maps/mainmap.jpg

 

Rand was in Bandor Eban during the events... Probably even Illian(tear?)

 

Look at where Tar Valon is.

 

If rand is that damned powerful....

Though we do know mat is now alot closer to egwene now then Rand was.

And Perrin I think is somewhere south east of her... by along distance but enough..

 

Basically if rand's Effects of being Ta'Varen stretch that far, His 'effects' are touching like, 85% of randland.

If he went to tremalking, I wouldn't be suprised if he could influence Seanchan...

 

Though that could explain why at 'ground zero', things are more 'concentrated' and 'off balance'...

 

Still theres that possibility the pattern made Egwene, Ta'varen, if only for a short while to make sure this event went down.

[Majsju]

 

 

 

 

I don't have the quote, but i remember RJ saying something about people who aren't necessarily Ta'varen, but still the pattern bends around them, (though not to the extent of a ta'varen).  This whole series has been about the 3 ta'varen from the two rivers, i think it would be a bit too fanficky for egwene to suddenly be revealed as another Ta'varen.  She's definately the most important thread in the pattern outside of Rand, Perrin, and Mat.

 

I have never seen RJ say anything like that. He has however said that none of the main female characters are ta'veren, which rules out Egwene.

 

Rand needs Egwene to be Amyrlin, so the Pattern has made it happen for him. Its an effect of Rand's ta'vareness.

 

I would not give Rand all the credit, as a lot of the actions that lead to Egwenes ascension took place far from Rand, where not even his ta'vereness should be able to influence matters. And thing is, for most of the key events, it was not necessary. Mesaana and the BA played their part in bringing down Siuan, Egwene should have been the obvious choice for the rebels to chose, considering her connection to Rand. Grnted, it was very likely Rands ta'vereness that made Egwene leave the TR in the first place, but that is a different story.

The one thing that we might give him direct credit for is the attack. Had Tuon agreed to his terms, the attack would not have happened, and Egwene would not get this combination of events that made the WT decide to offer her the Seat.

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

 

 

I don't have the quote, but i remember RJ saying something about people who aren't necessarily Ta'varen, but still the pattern bends around them, (though not to the extent of a ta'varen).  This whole series has been about the 3 ta'varen from the two rivers, i think it would be a bit too fanficky for egwene to suddenly be revealed as another Ta'varen.  She's definately the most important thread in the pattern outside of Rand, Perrin, and Mat.

 

 

I have never seen RJ say anything like that. He has however said that none of the main female characters are ta'veren, which rules out Egwene.

 

Rand needs Egwene to be Amyrlin, so the Pattern has made it happen for him. Its an effect of Rand's ta'vareness.

 

I would not give Rand all the credit, as a lot of the actions that lead to Egwenes ascension took place far from Rand, where not even his ta'vereness should be able to influence matters. And thing is, for most of the key events, it was not necessary. Mesaana and the BA played their part in bringing down Siuan, Egwene should have been the obvious choice for the rebels to chose, considering her connection to Rand. Grnted, it was very likely Rands ta'vereness that made Egwene leave the TR in the first place, but that is a different story.

The one thing that we might give him direct credit for is the attack. Had Tuon agreed to his terms, the attack would not have happened, and Egwene would not get this combination of events that made the WT decide to offer her the Seat.

 

Course if the seanchan didn't bow to him, he wouldn't have fullfilled the prophcecy 'before' he is to fullfill the one with the crystal throne. <_<

[Lownin]

Egwene has already become enough of a Mary Sue without becoming Taveran on top of it  ::)  

[Thorn]

There isn't necessarily a geographic limitation on ta'veren of Rand's caliber. Loial says in Eye of the World that very strong ta'veren can influence "perhaps all life-threads" (italics in original). It's also mentioned somewhere (I think at a Forsaken Social) that Rand has influenced events as far away as Shara.

 

Ta'veren impact surrounding life threads but Rand's "range" is worldwide.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Majsju, pg 642 Tor edition

 

"The attack below was breaking off, the entire raid focusing on Egwene. The novices fought Seanchan raiding parties on the stairs, forcing them back."

 

The next paragraph,

 

"But she was a fount of the Power, drawn from deep within the fluted rod in her hands, channeled through a group of novices and Accepted hiding in the room behind, bound to her in circle."

 

More than one group of novices, Eggy leading one. Also, she had said she was going for more angreal, so the others are probably using them in their circles.

[Majsju]

Majsju, pg 642 Tor edition

 

"The attack below was breaking off, the entire raid focusing on Egwene. The novices fought Seanchan raiding parties on the stairs, forcing them back."

 

The next paragraph,

 

"But she was a fount of the Power, drawn from deep within the fluted rod in her hands, channeled through a group of novices and Accepted hiding in the room behind, bound to her in circle."

 

More than one group of novices, Eggy leading one. Also, she had said she was going for more angreal, so the others are probably using them in their circles.

 

Yeah, I know. Went back and looked it up. Think I forgot about it because it made little sense, but...

[Ishmayl]

Egwene still gets on my nerves.

 

In her own way, she's being as wrong-headed as Rand has been.

 

It's not even "in her own way."  Just pure and simple, she does things that are wrong.  And what the hell was with her statement, after Silvian's "Men are not to be trusted." ???

 

Quoted (emphasis mine):

Someday, we will have to move beyond that last sentiment, Egwene thought.  But for now, it is true enough to let stand.

 

Uhh... What the hell?  "true enough to let stand?"  Is she a Red at heart?  I remember in book two, when Moraine was talking to Suian about Egwene and Nynaeve, she was talking specifically about how these two wouldn't choose Red, because though they are "flabbergasted" by men, they still love them.  What the hell changed so much that she can't stand men?

[Bob T Dwarf]

She trained the 3 strongest and steadiest novices in how to form and lead a circle, and then had them form circles of their own and defend the interior while she formed her own circle and did the anti-aircraft thing.

[Mr. Micawber]

That's why I said Egwene is fundamentally Blue and Red joined in one person, which is what allows the Tower to be truly united.

 

Traditionally, those two ajahs have been diametrically opposed.

[adverge]

 

I think Egwene is still stuck in the line of thought that Rand can't do up his trousers without her help.  This is very annoying.  It'd be really nice if the women in this series treated men like people instead of children.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Egwene still gets on my nerves.

 

In her own way, she's being as wrong-headed as Rand has been.

 

It's not even "in her own way."  Just pure and simple, she does things that are wrong.  And what the hell was with her statement, after Silvian's "Men are not to be trusted." ???

 

Quoted (emphasis mine):

Someday, we will have to move beyond that last sentiment, Egwene thought.  But for now, it is true enough to let stand.

 

Uhh... What the hell?  "true enough to let stand?"  Is she a Red at heart?  I remember in book two, when Moraine was talking to Suian about Egwene and Nynaeve, she was talking specifically about how these two wouldn't choose Red, because though they are "flabbergasted" by men, they still love them.  What the hell changed so much that she can't stand men?

 

Well, everybody in the series makes mistakes.  Often big ones.  But, you're right her thinking is out-in-left-field about so many things right now.

 

She's gotten target fixation.  She's so focused on re-uniting the Tower that she's lost sight of what is truly important.  She just isn't as unfeeling in her misconceptions as Rand, which is what I meant by "in her own way."

[adverge]

 

Why does Egwene think herself above or equal to the Dragon Reborn?  That's one thing I never understood.  She's queen of the female Aes Sedai, he's the world saviour.  I think he trumps her.  She has zero respect for him but expects endless respect from him.

[mastrtonberry]

She did feel a bit for Rand when she was captive in her cell.  Seemed like she might be beginning to understand some things he has to deal with.  I'm anxious to see what will happen when they finally meet again.

[SinisterDeath]

She's gotten target fixation.  She's so focused on re-uniting the Tower that she's lost sight of what is truly important.

 

ARE YOU reading the same book I am? Re-uniting the tower IS Important. If Egwene just abandoned the tower to the seanchan, let it collapse under its own weight, that could have been just as disastrous, had Rand Bale-fired Ebou Dar.

 

She just isn't as unfeeling in her misconceptions as Rand, which is what I meant by "in her own way."

 

I disagree.

Look at what Tam said to rand. Its not What you do, but WHY you do it.

Why is rand doing what he did?

It is fundementally different then WHY egwene did what she did.

 

And it is definately not 'wrong' of her to shoot down those to'raken with aes sedia down. It would have been 'VERY' bad if they got traveling... and its almost assured that they do.

 

Her stance on rand?

 

Look what he's done, in a matter of speaking, by 'not' being able to trust others.

 

RAND is under the assumption he has to bear the weight of the world upon only his shoulders.

Egwene & Others are trying to get it through his head, He doesn't. The entire World, should bear the weight, Not just one man.

 

You can only hit Carbon Steel so many times with something that is heavier and harder then it, before it shatters.

Rands weakness is his ties to those he cares about. The Forsaken know this.

If he tries to bear that weight himself, instead of with others, its going to do alot more than just crush him.

 

But The others also need to realize, that they can't just say 'jump' and expect him to jump. This is the lesson Tam is going to teach Cadusane, The lesson Moiraine learned.

They seem to have forgot the Aes Sedai creed.

 

Convince someone to do what you want them to do, by making them think it was there own idea.

Cads, Egwene, Nyneave, Seanchan, they all want him to do what they want him to do, They aren't doing the above at all.

But the important thing is, That they are trying to get Rand to understand, he can't do it alone.

 

Rand maybe the Dragon Reborn, a 'savior', but that arrogance he has that he is above all others, is what is going ot make him fail more than anything else.

Egwene doesn't have 'zero respect' for Rand, If anything she now understands his reasonsings for why he has done what 'she knows' that he has done. You have to remember, most of them don't even know he 'has' 2 wounds in his side, nor 1 hand. They are a bit behind, That isn't ignorance, Thats reality.

[kari-no-sugata]

Egwene practically became the seven Ajah made flesh in this book.

 

Once she takes down Mesaana she'll probably be put ahead of Cadsuane in terms of life-time accomplishments (by her peers). She was only outdone by Verin who went from suspicious grandmother to legend in one chapter. I hope Egwene will get a statue built for her.

 

She sure went for it. She didn't really have much else to lose really though - if she had backed down at any moment, she would have broken the spell. Verin probably had to do something roughly similar for about 70 years though (assuming her investigation of the BA was the project she started 70 years ago). Even when meeting those Sitters in chapter 12, she didn't back down and gained a useful edge.

 

At one or two points I thought she was going a little OTT. However, her reflection near the end upon her methods gives me some hope she will be wise and not simply strong.

 

It's going to be very interesting to see how she deals with Rand. It's easy enough to imagine a stormy meeting, but a lot would depend on the context. For example, what's going on with the Black Tower? Also, there could be big differences depending on whether Egwene can get some advance info from Nynaeve about what Rand's been going through lately.

 

Not least bit surprised she chose Silviana for Keeper. I thought it was pretty much a given as of Chapter 2.

 

I wonder how much advance planning she did for the Seanchan attack. She certainly seemed to have prepared to go for the sa'angreal - she asked Siuan about the storage location in advance after all. I wonder if she thought about forming circles with novices in advance (it's something that had occured to me).

 

Anyway, going to be interesting to see how she goes about preparing for the Last Battle. Will she put the White Tower on a full-on war footing?

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

But The others also need to realize, that they can't just say 'jump' and expect him to jump. This is the lesson Tam is going to teach Cadusane, The lesson Moiraine learned.

They seem to have forgot the Aes Sedai creed.

 

 

And, that's what I mean about Egwene taking her eye off the ball.  Sure re-uniting the Tower is important.  But it isn't the be-all and end-all of everything - except to her.  Totally wrong-headed.

 

Becoming an entire SAM battery was a great thing.  It was exactly what that single, short, situation required.  It has nothing to do with her basic wrong-headedness.

 

To Wit:  The Tower is all.  The Tower must be whole.  The Aes Sedai must return to their rightful place as the ultimate arbiters in all things.

 

That is so wide of the mark the bullet doesn't even land on the shooting range.

 

Service.  That's what being an Aes Sedai is supposed to mean.  They're supposed to be servants not masters.

[SinisterDeath]

But The others also need to realize, that they can't just say 'jump' and expect him to jump. This is the lesson Tam is going to teach Cadusane, The lesson Moiraine learned.

They seem to have forgot the Aes Sedai creed.

 

 

And, that's what I mean about Egwene taking her eye off the ball.  Sure re-uniting the Tower is important.  But it isn't the be-all and end-all of everything - except to her.  Totally wrong-headed.

 

Becoming an entire SAM battery was a great thing.  It was exactly what that single, short, situation required.  It has nothing to do with her basic wrong-headedness.

 

To Wit:  The Tower is all.  The Tower must be whole.  The Aes Sedai must return to their rightful place as the ultimate arbiters in all things.

 

That is so wide of the mark the bullet doesn't even land on the shooting range.

 

Service.  That's what being an Aes Sedai is supposed to mean.  They're supposed to be servants not masters.

 

They can't do that, ever, if they are destroyed, and left to roam.

Rand set a precident with the black tower, meaning to balance the white tower.

The land NEEDS a place to teach people those powers.

The seanchan don't want to 'teach'.

This is basically going to have 3 effects.

 

Land that is 'headed' by female channelers. (White Tower, Those who are aggainst the seanchan, but not against rand, but not exactly buddy buddy either)

Land that is 'headed' by male channelers. (Black Tower, Rand/Dragons sworn)

Land that is 'headed' by no channelers. (Seanchan/White Cloaks)

 

Theres more than one reason they 'all' need to unite.

 

They can't just let channelers run amock. Nor shoudl they enslave them.

Even among the Aiel the 'channelers' virtually 'rule' them.

Egwene and Nyneave both share sentinments about taking 'power' out of the equation of aes sedia 'ranking', probably do away with 'ranking' entirely.

 

That is leaps and bounds above anything the tower has done in a millienia. And you can't explore rand'land in the same context as 'our' earth.

 

Our own history have 'men' who had no issue with going to 'harams', but find the very idea of women even talking to another 'man' to be punishable by death.

The only difference is Jordan did a role reversal. You have to take alot of things into consideration here...

 

'Men' dropped the A Bomb on Hiroshima.

Didn't do much in changing anything.

 

in Randland

'men' 'stopped' evil, and in turn, became insane and killed everyone they knew.

Thats going to have an effect, and if that means aes sedia can't trust 'men', so be it. Theres more than one way that 'trust' can be meant in the context Egwene said.

[Ted M]

Her stance on rand?

 

Look what he's done, in a matter of speaking, by 'not' being able to trust others.

 

RAND is under the assumption he has to bear the weight of the world upon only his shoulders.

Egwene & Others are trying to get it through his head, He doesn't. The entire World, should bear the weight, Not just one man.

 

You can only hit Carbon Steel so many times with something that is heavier and harder then it, before it shatters.

Rands weakness is his ties to those he cares about. The Forsaken know this.

If he tries to bear that weight himself, instead of with others, its going to do alot more than just crush him.

 

But The others also need to realize, that they can't just say 'jump' and expect him to jump. This is the lesson Tam is going to teach Cadusane, The lesson Moiraine learned.

They seem to have forgot the Aes Sedai creed.

 

Convince someone to do what you want them to do, by making them think it was there own idea.

Cads, Egwene, Nyneave, Seanchan, they all want him to do what they want him to do, They aren't doing the above at all.

But the important thing is, That they are trying to get Rand to understand, he can't do it alone.

 

Rand maybe the Dragon Reborn, a 'savior', but that arrogance he has that he is above all others, is what is going ot make him fail more than anything else.

Egwene doesn't have 'zero respect' for Rand, If anything she now understands his reasonsings for why he has done what 'she knows' that he has done. You have to remember, most of them don't even know he 'has' 2 wounds in his side, nor 1 hand. They are a bit behind, That isn't ignorance, Thats reality.

 

The thing is, Rand's trust issues aren't caused by arrogance or insanity.  They're caused by the fact that the various Aes Sedai, in their attempts to "guide" him,  never actually think to talk to him.  They always talk at him, either trying to bully him or manipulate him, and they certainly never explain their reasons or share all the information they have with him.  They're absolutely certain that they know what he should do and that he couldn't possibly have a clue about what he's doing, despite everything he's accomplished thus far, and that the only way for him to succeed is for him to stop trying to figure out what to do with his puny little man woolheaded stubborn man brain and just do what they tell him.  How is it that he's the one that's arrogant and they're not?

 

Now, obviously, in tGS, his trust issues do cross a line into, well, paranoia and insanity.  Before Semi puts the collar on him though, he's always been willing to listen to advice, he just hasn't been willing to be bullied, or to take action based only on other peoples word, when it's obvious that they're withholding information from him and they have agendas that don't completely match his.  The ultimate responsibility for saving the world is his, so in my mind he has the right to make the decisions, and to do so with as much information as possible.  Instead of trying to "guide" him, they should try to actually advise him.  Tell him what they would do, yes, but also give him the information that led them to their conclusions.  Don't expect Rand to blindly trust you when you clearly don't trust him.  That's what drives me crazy about Egwene, Cadsuane, and all the rest.  They're at least as arrogant as he is.

 

That having been said, I've enjoyed the Egwene plot in the last two books.  As annoying as I find her whenever she deals with Rand, she's a thousand times less annoying then Elaida, Romanda or Lelaine, so when she's dealing with other Aes Sedai, she's easy to root for, and she does really well at dealing with healing the tower's division.  I'd like to think she's grown enough that she's not going to screw up her dealings with Rand, but that "...it's true enough to let stand." Line disturbs the heck out of me.

[coteaz]

I seriously hope this doesn't continue in TOM, now that rand has reintegrated with all his past lives, his wisdom, knowledge and skill will no longer be an issue. And i hope that all the aes sedai realize that he is their greatest weapon, and they need to start trusting him a bit more.

[welshtaz]

Egwene isn't ta'veren, Siuan would have noticed as it's one of her talents.  I agree it's Rand's effect that the pattern needs her as the amyrlin at the Last Battle.