Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's honestly not that tough, guys.

 

At time X Nynaeve is being rowed across a body of water.  High and dry.  Enjoying the experience.  Later, at time Y the boat is struck by balefire rewinding it and everything and everyone still alive in it back to time X.  At this time X ( or X Prime if that helps), Nynaeve is not high and dry, she's underwater and she definitely is not enjoying the experience.

 

Same point in time two different experiences for Nynaeve.  A psychiatrist would tell her she hallucinated the first time X and time Y.  She didn't.

 

Likewise with Rand, Min, and Semi.

 

At time X  everything is fine.  Min is in their room reading.  Rand is getting back from his excursion to Saldaea.  At time Y Semi causes Rand to start choking Min.  At time Z Rand balefires Semi rewinding everything to time X.

 

In terms of the Pattern and Age Lace, nothing at all happened to either Rand or Min.  Rand and Min however have the memory of a shared nightmare thanks to Semi.  A psychiatrist would tell them they hallucinated times Y and Z.  Again, they didn't.

 

They remember it happening but it really didn't in terms of the Age Lace.  And, the Age Lace is ultimately all that really matters. Since it didn't really happen there can be no paradoxical physical effects from the non-occurrence.  Bruises create a paradox.  Balefire doesn't allow paradoxes.

 

Correction: Balefire only allows one type of paradox.  A balefires B.  Then C balefires A.  Since balefire stands outside its own paradox, B remains dead.

 

The way the scene should have played out to conform to the rules of balefire is:

 

At time X, Rand and Min should both remember what happened.  A subsequent check should reveal that Semi and Elza have both disappeared.  We, Rand and Min should know what happened to them, but everyone else should be mystified.

 

The sticky part becomes whether the Domination Band is still in Cadsuane's room or not.  Rand did destroy it entirely on his own.  But it was there to be destroyed as a result of Semi's action.  Balefiring Semi should return it to Cadsuane's room and its hiding place.

 

Rand should have to go to Cad's room and open that box, retrieve the CK key, and then destroy the Band.  That would make his exile of Cadsuane even less acceptable to others.  No physical proof that she'd allowed the Domination Band to be found.  No ready justification for the exile.

 

Doing it the right way wouldn't require that anything subsequent in the book would have to be changed, it would just make Rand appear to be even more crazy.

[coteaz]

I absolutely agree with you, however, even if semi forced rand to choke min, he was the one that was doing it not semi, even if the cause for him doing it is removed he still did it because he wasn't the person that was balefired.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I absolutely agree with you, however, even if semi forced rand to choke min, he was the one that was doing it not semi, even if the cause for him doing it is removed he still did it because he wasn't the person that was balefired.

 

True.  But, his action, which occurred during the balefire interval, was the direct result of his interaction with the one balefired.

 

Under the rules of balefire, that negates his action.

[Thorn]

I absolutely agree with you, however, even if semi forced rand to choke min, he was the one that was doing it not semi, even if the cause for him doing it is removed he still did it because he wasn't the person that was balefired.

 

True.  But, his action, which occurred during the balefire interval, was the direct result of his interaction with the one balefired.

 

Under the rules of balefire, that negates his action.

 

Counterpoint: balefire is supposed to result in events that don't quite make sense -- hence the unravelling of the Pattern, etc.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

1. Semi forces Rand to choke Min.

 

2. Rand blasts the collar with the true power and stops choking Min.

 

3. Semi is balefired, meaning she never forced Rand to choke Min.

 

Rand still choked Min. He had to stop choking her, remember? If you want to follow your logic, then the fact that he balefired her means she never put the collar on him which means that he never channeled the True Power to take the collar off.

 

He obviously channeled the true power, and he obviously choked Min. She had bruises. When RJ said his bites needed to be healed in T'A'R, it is because the fishes were a creation of Rahvin's mind, and hence a direct action.

 

Semi forcing Rand to choke Min is indirect. Semi sending the required thoughts through the D.B. is a direct action, but Rand moving his hand to choke Min is indirect. Rand's body had to do it. Rand's thread is the one who did the choking. He was not balefired, so he still did the choking.

[coteaz]

It doesn't negate his actions, it negates semi's actions, although rands actions were at a result of semi's actions, he was still the one to do them.

1. Semi forces Rand to choke Min.

 

2. Rand blasts the collar with the true power and stops choking Min.

 

3. Semi is balefired, meaning she never forced Rand to choke Min.

 

Rand still choked Min. He had to stop choking her, remember? If you want to follow your logic, then the fact that he balefired her means she never put the collar on him which means that he never channeled the True Power to take the collar off.

 

He obviously channeled the true power, and he obviously choked Min. She had bruises. When RJ said his bites needed to be healed in T'A'R, it is because the fishes were a creation of Rahvin's mind, and hence a direct action.

 

Semi forcing Rand to choke Min is indirect. Semi sending the required thoughts through the D.B. is a direct action, but Rand moving his hand to choke Min is indirect. Rand's body had to do it. Rand's thread is the one who did the choking. He was not balefired, so he still did the choking.

 

Exactly

[Bob T Dwarf]

Another example from Caemlyn.

 

At time M everyone exits the gateway.  At time N Rahvin's lightning ( an indirect effect ) kills Asmo, Mat and Avi.  As a result random Aiel A, B, and C are killed by Trollocs X, Y, and Z, at time O because Mat and Avi aren't there to provide support.

 

Then, Rand balefires Rahvin, which negates Rahvin's direct acts and their indirect effects.  That rewinds things to time M.  Now, because they are there to provide that support at time O, Mat kills Trolloc X, and Avi kills Y and Z.  That results in the restoration of Aiel A, B, and C.

 

Because Aiel A, B and C didn't die, more Trollocs are killed and Aiel D, and E no longer die.

 

And the ripples spread outward from there.

 

 

whatever had been done because of those vanished actions also had no longer been done.

 

Rand doesn't choke Min because choking her is something that was "done because of those vanished actions."

[coteaz]

If Rahvin wove the lightning then it wouldn't be an indirect effect.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If Rahvin wove the lightning then it wouldn't be an indirect effect.

 

Lightning is not a direct weave.  The proof of that is that it killed Mat.  Mat's medallion will dissipate any direct weave aimed close enough to him to cause damage.

[coteaz]

yes its not a direct weave, but Rahvin wove it so its a direct EFFECT.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The weave that Rahvin spun creates two poles of opposite potential at two points in space.  That's all it does.

 

If those two poles have great enough opposite potential, then electricity, in the form of lightning flows between them.

 

The lightning is therefore an indirect effect of the weave.  The poles being the only direct effect.

 

Since Rahvin was balefired, he never formed that weave.  Since he never formed the weave, the result of the weave, lightning, was never created.  Since lightning was never created, Asmo, Avi, and Mat never died.

[coteaz]

Exactly

[Rowan Sedai]

There are a lot of people who complain about Mat's chapters.  I laughed through most of them, and enjoyed them thoroughly.  There was one thing that bothered me about Hinderstap, however.  Mat takes five soldiers with him.  He sends two with the Aes Sedai (p. 407).  Where do those three soldiers go?  He worries about his Redarms that are with him, but he never seems to spare even a side thought to the three who went with the sisters.  When they pass back through the inn, nobody notices any blood stains that could be from the soldiers, and the soldiers are not in the groups who have come back from the dead as far as we can see.

 

One other thing that bothered me in the book: Min's use of the word "looby" instead of wool head or sheep herder. (Can't find the page at the moment.) I just stared at the word for several minutes, completely confused by it.

[SinisterDeath]

It's honestly not that tough, guys.

 

At time X Nynaeve is being rowed across a body of water.  High and dry.  Enjoying the experience.  Later, at time Y the boat is struck by balefire rewinding it and everything and everyone still alive in it back to time X.  At this time X ( or X Prime if that helps), Nynaeve is not high and dry, she's underwater and she definitely is not enjoying the experience.

 

Same point in time two different experiences for Nynaeve.  A psychiatrist would tell her she hallucinated the first time X and time Y.  She didn't.

 

Likewise with Rand, Min, and Semi.

 

At time X  everything is fine.  Min is in their room reading.  Rand is getting back from his excursion to Saldaea.  At time Y Semi causes Rand to start choking Min.  At time Z Rand balefires Semi rewinding everything to time X.

 

In terms of the Pattern and Age Lace, nothing at all happened to either Rand or Min.  Rand and Min however have the memory of a shared nightmare thanks to Semi.  A psychiatrist would tell them they hallucinated times Y and Z.  Again, they didn't.

 

They remember it happening but it really didn't in terms of the Age Lace.  And, the Age Lace is ultimately all that really matters. Since it didn't really happen there can be no paradoxical physical effects from the non-occurrence.  Bruises create a paradox.  Balefire doesn't allow paradoxes.

 

Correction: Balefire only allows one type of paradox.  A balefires B.  Then C balefires A.  Since balefire stands outside its own paradox, B remains dead.

 

The way the scene should have played out to conform to the rules of balefire is:

 

At time X, Rand and Min should both remember what happened.  A subsequent check should reveal that Semi and Elza have both disappeared.  We, Rand and Min should know what happened to them, but everyone else should be mystified.

 

The sticky part becomes whether the Domination Band is still in Cadsuane's room or not.  Rand did destroy it entirely on his own.  But it was there to be destroyed as a result of Semi's action.  Balefiring Semi should return it to Cadsuane's room and its hiding place.

 

Rand should have to go to Cad's room and open that box, retrieve the CK key, and then destroy the Band.  That would make his exile of Cadsuane even less acceptable to others.  No physical proof that she'd allowed the Domination Band to be found.  No ready justification for the exile.

 

Doing it the right way wouldn't require that anything subsequent in the book would have to be changed, it would just make Rand appear to be even more crazy.

 

The answer is simple.

 

A - Rand talking to min

B - Rand has domination band on his neck

C - Rand starts choking min

D - Rand chokes her some more

E - Rand Balefires the forsaken & the other lady.

 

Balefire was weak enough to balefire there threads to D And not B.

 

Had Rand Balefired that forsaken to A, The band would have disapeared.

HE only did a 'weak' balefire. As weak as the one he did on his SHIRT!

It wasn't a minutes or hours balefire, it was a 'seconds' one.

 

It should be noted, that balefire isn't always consistant.

And if you use Quantum Mechanics, some of those inconstistancies have to remain.

 

Basically that going 'back' in time, can completely negate the grandfather effect, simply by replacing the timeline you are on.

 

Prime time line is a straight line.

Go change something in the past.

It has no effect on you, but everything around you changes.

 

For all we know, because rand was touching min, at the time, it could have effected how balefire affected everything... Idea being like that 'mat pose' guarding the door. If rand blasted it 20 minutes into the past, mat shouldn't have been at the door.

So, while rand blasted the two women away, the timeline still sees it as him choking Min.

 

And heres another possibility.

 

The weaker the blast of balefire, the weaker its effect on the timeline. Not just in 'how far' back it goes, but also how many threads around it, it affects...

 

 

And just to throw a monkey wrench into it all...

 

Rand used the TP, from the DO.

If this balefire works differently because it used the DO's Power.

She may not actually be dead. :P (course, DO's a prick and has no reason to ressurect her, assuming becuase it was a balefire using the Do's power the DO could siphon her soul before it was destroyed, or even the balefire made from the DO could siphon it to him instead of destroying it.) <_<

 

But, do you REALLY want to go down the train of thought that TP balefire works differently? ;)

[coteaz]

of course :p

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'll say this for ya, SinsterDeath, you're not quite dazzling me, but you sure are baffling me, if you know what I mean.

[JenniferL]

 

One other thing that bothered me in the book: Min's use of the word "looby" instead of wool head or sheep herder. (Can't find the page at the moment.) I just stared at the word for several minutes, completely confused by it.

 

According to Ideal Seek search engine, Min has called Rand a looby at least three times before. http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=looby

[richnewton82]

.

[RAMb0211]

Haha I knew I remembered looby coming up somewhere before.  :D

[Mr Ares]

OK, since I can't gloat anywhere else...   ;D

Or here, for that matter. After all, Verin confessed to being BA, not to re-writing the dictionary, which is what would be required for your definition - which your theory was based on - to be correct.

 

We know how Verin could have removed the "no lie" oath (and probably replaced it with something like "I promise to lie no more than ten times a day"  Grin  ). She possessed the twisted ring dream ter'angreal. And we know that she had used it. That explains how the lying was possible for her.

Yes, that does appear to be the Oath she took, doesn't it. Sometimes, Alghar, it's best not to dig up the past.

 

Of course, while on the subject of Verin, it strikes me that actually, while I can't think of anyone who was wholly right (if anyone has a quote of someone saying, prior to release, that Verin was Light side and BA, then I'll admit they made a bloody good gues, and can give the rest of us an "I told you so"), the vast majority appear to have been half right. If you said Verin isn't BA, she's for the Light and a Brown, you're right she's for the Brown and the Light, but wrong about her not being Black. If you said she was Black, and therefore evil, you're wrong, because she wasn't evil, but right in that she was Black. The only people who are completely wrong are people who said things like "she's a Darkfriend but not BA", "she's of the Purple/Orange/Heliotrope/insert colour of choice Ajah", "she used her Dream ter'angreal and freed herself from the Oaths in T'a'r", or similar. Of course, I'm not going to gloat. I'm magnanimous in victory.

 

Of course, this book killed off a few more theories than just those about Verin. I think we can safely say that the series is not going to end with the creation of linear time, for one. To go from Rand accepting that the good thing about the Wheel is that it gives a second chance to blowing it up and removing that second chance seems rather unlikely. I also think that the theory about Rand hearing Moridin's views on the Creator (CoT 24) is a bit more far-fetched now than it ever was. After all, Rand wonders at the time how much space remains between him and LTT, and here we see their thoughts blurring even more, with Rand finally accepting LTT as part of himself. Perrin's thoughts about giving the TR up to whatever Lord Elayne appoints make me think it unlikely he'll end up with half of Andor in his power - I think Elayne's more likely to end up with the whole thing, at present. If only a mod could get around to moving the Towers of Midnight speculation thread to here (or open a new one), so we can discuss our predictions at interminable length. What Prophecies are still to be fulfilled? How will Perrin save Rand? Is Graendal really dead? Who killed Asmo? Do we still care? I bet even now, luckers is working on his Towers of Midnight: the Plot thread.

[Alghar Khan]

We know how Verin could have removed the "no lie" oath (and probably replaced it with something like "I promise to lie no more than ten times a day"  Grin  ). She possessed the twisted ring dream ter'angreal. And we know that she had used it. That explains how the lying was possible for her.

Yes, that does appear to be the Oath she took, doesn't it. Sometimes, Alghar, it's best not to dig up the past.

You requested of me to explain how she could have lied. By giving you a plausible explanation. I did that. It wasn't the way she actually removed the oaths. You can dig up the past all you want. ;D

[Mr Ares]

By giving you a plausible explanation.

You failed. More so than if you had just said she was BA.

[Alghar Khan]

No, it was a plausible explanation. RJ said that it was possible. Read it and weep.

[Alghar Khan]

AS cannot lie. Verin is AS. Therefore Verin cannot lie. That is absolutely crystal clear.

Really?  ;D

[Paendragon]

My thoughts....

The forces of the light gained a lot of ground in this book. I had to put it down for a few minutes when Verin confessed, jump up and down screaming "I KNEW it!" and "Oh no the horn!" and the like. Rands descent to rock bottom was awesome, and I did not expect him to learn laughter the way he did. (I thought it would have to do with his kids) I think that Rand channeling the true power however, was a BIG step backwards for the forces of light, I wondered if the Dark one hadn't just turned him right then and there. (Does Rand have one of those black chords that he's seen attached to the forsaken? is that what his "dark aura" is?) Did he sense the true power from achieving the "uber-void" that he did, or did the dark one allow him to sense it?

 

Even more important than the white tower being united and the black aja purge and Rand learning laughter is his new connection with the true power, VERY significant.