Rand and Ishy's fight in the clouds

[Padraic_Seebrr]

I just finished re-reading the 3rd book again, and I noticed that Hammer Gaidin said to the students that the "greatest blademaster of all time" was beaten once, by a farmer with a staff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Rand and Ishy fought above Falme, Rand had his sword, and Ishy had a staff. Soooo... does that mean Rand A. Go extremely lucky. B. Is even BETTER than Jearom, the greatest blademaster of all time, C. It was a deeper plot by Ishy O.o.

[MierinWru]

Maybe Mat and that other guy (who beat the greatest blademaster of all yaddayadda) are just better at fighting with a staff than Ishy is?

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well yeah, I suppose that could be true. But if Ishy knew he was crap with a staff, why didn't he make some other sort of weapon, or even just blast him with the True Power?

[MierinWru]

Well yeah, I suppose that could be true. But if Ishy knew he was crap with a staff, why didn't he make some other sort of weapon, or even just blast him with the True Power?

 

Well, seriously? Cause the series would've been over at that point with Rand being dead.

 

Ishy could've killed Rand easily for all we know. Rand didn't quite have control over Saidin yet and Ishy could've just balefired him. One reason could be that he didn't want Rand to die yet. Apparently the DO doesn't want Rand to die either.

But if Ishy didn't want to kill him..... why face him at all then?

 

But then again Ishy did almost kill him. Rand only cheated his way out "sheathing the sword" and suffering a pretty annoying long-term injury. Wonder if the DO would've been mad at Ishy for killing Rand.

[Nimic]

You seem to be working under the assumption that staff > blade where all else is equal. It doesn't work like that.

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah it doesnt mean that a staff will always beat a sword.

[somathus]

Rand's willingness to "Sheathe the Sword", as Lan had taught him, was the reason he beat Ishy.  He knew he was losing at that point.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

You seem to be working under the assumption that staff > blade where all else is equal. It doesn't work like that.

 

Haha, that's what Gawyn, Galad, and Jearom thought.

 

Yeah it doesnt mean that a staff will always beat a sword.

 

The few instances we have of staff vs sword, staff has always come out ahead. (Jearom and the farmer, Mat vs Galad and Gawyn, Mat vs High Lord in Book Three, Mat vs various guards of Stone in Book Three, Juilien everytime he's mentioned fighting...)

[42Bonzo88]

    Ishy also could have still been underestimating Rand. Remember that at the end of The Dragon Reborn, Ishy runs from Rand.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

True, but I think I'm going to go with somathus' idea that Rand only won because he was willing to sheath the sword, if he had continued fighting he most likely would have lost.

[OptimusPrime]

You seem to be working under the assumption that staff > blade where all else is equal. It doesn't work like that.

 

Haha, that's what Gawyn, Galad, and Jearom thought.

 

Yeah it doesnt mean that a staff will always beat a sword.

 

The few instances we have of staff vs sword, staff has always come out ahead. (Jearom and the farmer, Mat vs Galad and Gawyn, Mat vs High Lord in Book Three, Mat vs various guards of Stone in Book Three, Juilien everytime he's mentioned fighting...)

 

Again, it doesnt meant a staff will win every time. Erm, Rand vs Ishamael? If its as black and white as you say then Aiel should pretty much be immune to swordsmanship.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

You seem to be working under the assumption that staff > blade where all else is equal. It doesn't work like that.

 

Haha, that's what Gawyn, Galad, and Jearom thought.

 

Yeah it doesnt mean that a staff will always beat a sword.

 

The few instances we have of staff vs sword, staff has always come out ahead. (Jearom and the farmer, Mat vs Galad and Gawyn, Mat vs High Lord in Book Three, Mat vs various guards of Stone in Book Three, Juilien everytime he's mentioned fighting...)

 

Again, it doesnt meant a staff will win every time. Erm, Rand vs Ishamael? If its as black and white as you say then Aiel should pretty much be immune to swordsmanship.

 

Who, 9 times out of 10, wins in an Aiel vs swordsman fight? Not counting when the major characters are fighting.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Also Aiel use short spears not staffs (staves?)

[OptimusPrime]

Also Aiel use short spears not staffs (staves?)

 

A spear can easily be used as a staff.

 

Trust, if you think a staff beats a sword just like that, just because we have had more staff victories than sword victores, you are reading between non-existant lines. You wouldnt say Moghedien cannot possibly beat Nynaeve just because we have only seen Nynaeve win so far would you?

[Mr. Micawber]

Also Aiel use short spears not staffs (staves?)

 

A spear can easily be used as a staff.

 

Trust, if you think a staff beats a sword just like that, just because we have had more staff victories than sword victores, you are reading between non-existant lines. You wouldnt say Moghedien cannot possibly beat Nynaeve just because we have only seen Nynaeve win so far would you?

 

Staves tend to be at a minimum 6 feet, while the Aiel short spear is about 4ish. They're pretty much universally described as "short spears"

 

Making an Aiel spear into a staff would bring to mind the hilarious scene from Robin Hood: Men in Tights, when Cary Elwes fights Little John with increasingly shorter staff.

 

This movie, of course, also has Dave Chappelle's only good film role (his TV series, of course, being made of pure, triple distilled WIN)

[OptimusPrime]

Also Aiel use short spears not staffs (staves?)

 

A spear can easily be used as a staff.

 

Trust, if you think a staff beats a sword just like that, just because we have had more staff victories than sword victores, you are reading between non-existant lines. You wouldnt say Moghedien cannot possibly beat Nynaeve just because we have only seen Nynaeve win so far would you?

 

Staves tend to be at a minimum 6 feet, while the Aiel short spear is about 4ish. They're pretty much universally described as "short spears"

 

 

And yet Mats experience with the staff surely helps him use the longer ashanderei.

[ROB_88]

screw the staff vs sword thing.

if there's anything that needs discussion it's how they even got up ther in the sky.

 

was it the True Power? was it the Wheel? or the DO?

where they actually up there, or was it just an image/hallucination?

[Telzen]

They weren't standing in the sky, they just appeared as an image in the sky. RJ has said it was the Wheels doing.

[OptimusPrime]

Im sure it was the Pattern. Didnt it show him proclaim himself in the sky as well?

[Blackhoof]

I suppose that everyone just assumed that it was the Dagon Reborn.

[Muad Cheade]

Staves tend to be at a minimum 6 feet, while the Aiel short spear is about 4ish. They're pretty much universally described as "short spears"

 

Making an Aiel spear into a staff would bring to mind the hilarious scene from Robin Hood: Men in Tights, when Cary Elwes fights Little John with increasingly shorter staff.

 

This movie, of course, also has Dave Chappelle's only good film role (his TV series, of course, being made of pure, triple distilled WIN)

 

That was a great scene but while I love that film, I do like him in Blue Streak also.

 

Back to the staves vs. swords, the examples in the books of staves against swords are the exceptions that prove the rule. Swords are usually more effective than staves and if someone faced another with his staff against the others sword and the staff-bearer lost, do you think it would be note-worthy to include in the books? No, because it is expected.

 

That being said, a weakened Mat beating two blademasters in training was awesome.

 

As for the fighting in the sky, I never gave thought to why they were in the sky but it being the Wheel's doing makes absolute sense.

 

Some of the outcomes were:

• Taim being captured because he saw it
  
• Dragonsworn emerging in nearly every nation
  
• Masema becoming what he is
  
• etc, etc
  

[OptimusPrime]

Masema becoming what he is

 

Still positive he had some help with that.

 

[Beren]

Masema becoming what he is

 

Still positive he had some help with that.

 

 

Yup, I would agree.

[Wonzer]

I hate to return to the staff vs sword point as it's a little bit off the subject, but:

 

Was it a staff? My think Ishy was using a club or mace (same word in my language) but that can be caused by bad translation :P

 

If staff beats swords every time, aren't armies just stupid to use swords? Why don't change to staves? And I think that big part of Mat's victory as well as that farmer's victory against that great swordman legend was that our sword masters were underestimating their opponents

[Blackhoof]

I would agree, if you are the worlds greatest swordfighter, then you wouldn't be worried about some farmer with a staff.

 

Actually, ishy did have a staff. It said so clearly. A staff is a stick of varyinf lengths, a club is a short stick with a wider end or knob at one end used to hit people. A mace is something like a club except it has metal a metal handle, studs, or spikes at the hitting end. Although I found a staff an odd weapon for an evil uber-wizard.  :)