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Why I think Gawayn is a dead man walking


ErikTheBald

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Gawayn's standard is a White Boar. 

 

There was another famous Whyte Boar in the history of the British Isles and that was Richard III.

 

Anyone who doesn't already know how he ended up, I'll tell you he didn't end pretty as Richard III was the last British king to die in battle. 

 

You do the math.

 

 

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Gawayn's standard is a White Boar. 

 

There was another famous Whyte Boar in the history of the British Isles and that was Richard III.

 

Anyone who doesn't already know how he ended up, I'll tell you he didn't end pretty as Richard III was the last British king to die in battle. 

 

You do the math.

 

 

 

That's a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

 

Gawyn shares the name and a lot of similarities with Gawain, King Arthur's best knight.

 

In the poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, he receives three blows on his neck from the Green Knight's axe but walks away with only a scar (if I remember correctly). Perhaps that's a hint that he will be there to save Egwene from the headsman's axe but that's all speculation though.

 

I do think he'll live though.

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Both having the white boar on their standard seemed like too good a joke on the part of RJ to overlook.

 

I can't really see all that much similarity to Sir Gawain though.  Let's face it. RJ takes many of his names from other literature.  Not that this is wrong by any means, but Gareth (Gareth Bryne) was Young Arthur's dog in "A once and Future King" 

 

In any case, I just thought it was an interesting similarity and I'm trying to keep myself occupied for the next 20 days.

 

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I'm trying to keep myself occupied for the next 20 days.

The more I see comments like this the longer it seems even though the numbers decrease :(

 

But back on topic, That could have an impact upon the decision that he will eventually have to make. I mean by the choice between the TAS and RAS,if the standard has any connection then it would be totally plausible for the motto as well. But which side of the fence does that loyalty bind him, love or duty?

 

Loyalty Binds Me :D

 

/edit spewlling ;)

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Personally I think Gawyn has the highest chance of being an existing male character who learns to channel. I think there has to be at least one man who finds out he has the ability from the pre-existing characters.

 

 

Specifically I think the decision he has to make, the one on which Egwene's life rests, is whether to continue with his hatred of Rand, or let it go. I'm hoping he lets it go and gets back to the more easy going guy we knew early on.

 

If that could happen I could see him being a big player in the post-TG world. Not that him learning to channel or anything would occur in the books, but I do think (hope, willfully want) him to learn he has the ability before the end.

 

Maybe that knowledge will even play a part in his decision.

 

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Personally I think Gawyn has the highest chance of being an existing male character who learns to channel. I think there has to be at least one man who finds out he has the ability from the pre-existing characters.

 

Definitely. I keep wondering if/when the Aes Sedai will think to test their Warders for the ability.

 

Annoying as I find his POVs, I wish we'd see more of Gawyn. I've always thought his support of Elaida in TSR felt forced (by the author if nothing else), regardless of his worry for Elayne or Egwene. Given his education and social status, he should have expected that the girls would (eventually) get mired in Tower schemes; it's what the Aes Sedai do.

 

His distrust of Rand is more believable, given the rumours that were flying around, but still seemed a bit excessive.

 

-- dwn

 

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I don't particularly like Gawyn. He's got the same thing as Perrin, which is the genuine feeling that their loved one is all that matters. Gawyn would have tried to kill Rand if Egwene wouldn't have minded it, Dragon Reborn or no Dragon Reborn, and Perrin has clearly shown himself (through actions and thoughts; Points of View) to be capable of going to bed with the devil to protect Faile.

 

In a world of actual, genuine ultimate evil, that just won't cut it.

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Personally I think Gawyn has the highest chance of being an existing male character who learns to channel. I think there has to be at least one man who finds out he has the ability from the pre-existing characters.

 

 

Specifically I think the decision he has to make, the one on which Egwene's life rests, is whether to continue with his hatred of Rand, or let it go. I'm hoping he lets it go and gets back to the more easy going guy we knew early on.

 

If that could happen I could see him being a big player in the post-TG world. Not that him learning to channel or anything would occur in the books, but I do think (hope, willfully want) him to learn he has the ability before the end.

 

Maybe that knowledge will even play a part in his decision.

 

 

It would also help Egwene establish a good relationship with the Black Tower.

 

As for the people who don't like the fact that Gawyn hates Rand, you must remember that he believes, like the majority of the world, that Rand killed Morgase. He is also seen as the reason why Elayne and Egwene were entangled in the mess they were. If I were in Gawyn's position, I wouldn't exactly be thinking nice thoughts about him.

 

As for Perrin, even though this isn't a "Perrin thread," Faile is the only family he has and trusts. He's like Anakin Skywalker. They've lost nearly everything dear to themselves and are willing to do anything to keep from losing the last thing in their hearts.

 

Yeah, I'm a nerd. what of it?

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The thing that's always bugged me is why didn't Egwene explain what happened to him. She goes "Rand didn't kill your mother." He goes "Were you there?" and she goes "Oh, good point. Let me think about this and get back to you."

 

Why the hell doesn't she say to him "Yes, I was there when word came to Rand that Morgase had been slain. I saw his rage, I saw him set out to avenge her. Oh yeah, by the way, you know that strange fellow Gaebril who appeared out of no where and became your mother's closest confidante, completely ousting Bryne... yeah, he was totally Rahvin. Rand did not kill your mother, he killed your mother's killer. Now stop being a prat and kiss me some more."

 

Hell, she achieves as much with Mattin Stepeneos in five seconds.

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The thing that's always bugged me is why didn't Egwene explain what happened to him. She goes "Rand didn't kill your mother." He goes "Were you there?" and she goes "Oh, good point. Let me think about this and get back to you."

 

Why the hell doesn't she say to him "Yes, I was there when word came to Rand that Morgase had been slain. I saw his rage, I saw him set out to avenge her. Oh yeah, by the way, you know that strange fellow Gaebril who appeared out of no where and became your mother's closest confidante, completely ousting Bryne... yeah, he was totally Rahvin. Rand did not kill your mother, he killed your mother's killer. Now stop being a prat and kiss me some more."

 

Hell, she achieves as much with Mattin Stepeneos in five seconds.

 

She got him to not lift a hand against Rand because she had no absolute proof that Rand did not kill Morgase.

 

I mean, if you hear from everyone that Rand killed your mother and even after he was said to have done that, he conquers Andor. It'd be hard to believe from only Egwene that he didn't do that when all that happens in succession. She did what she could do at the time to keep him from going after Rand.

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She didn't even bother telling him the specifics. She left him with the impression that she thought Rand didn't do it simply because she thought Rand didn't do it. She was at the heart of most of this, and would have joined in the attack except for Lanfear. She could have told him a damn sight more than she did.

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I agree that his hatred for the WT and for Rand does seem forced.  That is RJ's purpose, obviously, so it's going to play out an important part in the next few books.  I think the question we need to be asking is:

 

How can Gawyn's hatred of all thing Aes Sedai and Rand help/hurt Egwene and her schemes?

 

I think that if he appears to be loyal to Elaida, (no one knows about the Gawyn/Egwene romance but them two; I don't even think Egwene told Elayne) he might be able to get access to the Tower and stage a rescue if things get worse for Egwene.  One of Egwene's Dreams told her of being locked in a room and she knew if the door closed, she would be dead.  Gawyn is the most likely rescuer, I think, in a case like this.  Of course, I think she's stated before that just cause she Dreams something doesn't guarantee that it will happen, it's just a possiblity.  Maybe all her dreams are only possible futures, not the future that will actually happen.

 

~Mashiara

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Now that I think on it, I recall reading a theory that in 'The Truth of a Viewing' Gawyn was acting off balance and emotional, quite like the victim of something like Liandrin's trick. Given the BA support of the coup, it's possible that he and the other Warder students were induced to help with the Tower coup.

 

-- dwn

 

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I think that Liandrins trick was something unique to her.

 

Other Aes Sedai have their tricks, but Liandrin was apparently the only one that could do that level of near-Compulsion, the others just planted suggestions or sudden urges, not the full-on take-control style that Liandrin did.

 

Besides, had Liandrin been there, her trick would have been limited to one person at a time.

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If you knew, why did you suggest it?

 

And irrespective, your knowing the flaw in your argument doesn't mean that your argument is stronger now. The conclusion of this conversation is merely that others had tricks--some may have been as strong or stronger than Liandrin's--her's wasn't incredibly strong, comparative to some we've seen. They weren't full compulsion, but that doesn't rule them out--as Liandrin herself proves. Nothing in that makes the suggestion of Gawyn being compelled 'illogical'.

 

Consider, for instance, that Galina was involved in breaking wilders of their blocks (ergo had access to wilders). That's how Verin learnt her method of compulsion.

 

I don't think he was compelled at all, mind you.

 

Incidently, 'to suggest' and 'to assume' are two different states of argument. I don't believe anyone 'assumed' he was compelled.

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I don't think he was compelled at all, mind you.

 

I find it pretty doubtful as well. IIRC, the 'Younglings' got involved only when Aes Sedai and Warders (including Hammar and Coulin) tried a counter coup to free Siuan before she was stilled.

 

Something still strikes me as odd about Gawyn's behaviour during the coup and afterwards, though. His sister and would-be love vanish, reappear and vanish again in what would look like a White Tower scheme. I just can't see that alone explaining his actions. Gawyn's later distrust and hatred of Rand is understandable, given the rumours about Morgase, but his continued support of the Tower is weird.

 

In TFOH, 'An Unexpected Offer', Galad mentions that Gawyn was nearly unhinged with worry over Egwene, so I presume Galad also thought that Gawyn's reaction was overmuch.

 

I've never given it any thought before, but I can see the possibility of Gawyn becoming a Darkfriend, especially if he came to feel rejected or betrayed by Egwene and Elayne. Playing the scenario further, I can see him turning Egwene over to the Dreadlords and Myrddraal if he thought doing so would win her back. He has a lot of internal darkness to deal with.

 

-- dwn

 

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The thing that's always bugged me is why didn't Egwene explain what happened to him. She goes "Rand didn't kill your mother." He goes "Were you there?" and she goes "Oh, good point. Let me think about this and get back to you."

 

Why the hell doesn't she say to him "Yes, I was there when word came to Rand that Morgase had been slain. I saw his rage, I saw him set out to avenge her. Oh yeah, by the way, you know that strange fellow Gaebril who appeared out of no where and became your mother's closest confidante, completely ousting Bryne... yeah, he was totally Rahvin. Rand did not kill your mother, he killed your mother's killer. Now stop being a prat and kiss me some more."

 

Hell, she achieves as much with Mattin Stepeneos in five seconds.

 

You're right, that's exactly what she should have done.  And, that illustrates one of the biggest weaknesses of the series.

 

Jordan was correct in his premise that nobody tells everyone all that they need to know.  But, as with most things in the series he took that too far.  In Randland, nobody tells anyone anything that they need to know.  It's all outright lies, or half-truths, maneuver and manipulation.  I cannot recall even one honest conversation between any two characters in all 11 volumes of the series.

 

That's no more realistic than characters that tell all of the truth all of the time.

 

There is no tension.  No foreboding.  Because all of the inter-personal drama is so obviously artificially forced.

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I don't really agree with that. The lack of communication mostly makes sense--it's stupid, but it fits considering the political situation. Egwene not telling Gawyn about Rand doesn't fit, but thats part of the exception, not the rule.

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