The one power is cheap

[Swigaro]

Maybe, but if they can all instantly learn weaves it certainly makes all our main characters look a lot less like prodigies and a lot more like average joes.  Maybe that was his goal.

 

Regardless, no one has ventured a guess to how the trollocs got there or why they weren't backed by people wielding the one power.  Anyone have a theory on why?

 

Moridin's PoV in KoD states that the Trollocs got there through the Ways.  Why they didn't become lunch for Machin Shin is another matter.  That we do not know.  Perhaps they were warded in some way.  Perhaps they were just insanely lucky.  If it was indeed Taim behind the attack, as I suspect, the lack of channeler backup could have been an attempt to hide his hand in the attack.  Yes, the presences of just a few channeler would have greatly increased the effectiveness of the attack.  It also would have brought the Black Ajah and or Black Asha'men out in the open.  Unless the attack was 100% effective, his biggest trump card has been played.  If someone out there started countering the weaves Rand and Co were using, what would have stopped them from simply escaping?  As the attack played out, The Shadow is really not in any worse position.  They are out a bunch of shock troops, (a huge pile of shock troops, granted) but there big guns still remain in the shadows, unknown to Rand and Co.  Had the attack included Channelers, there would be a lot more to loose for the Shadow.  The whole scene has always read to me like a kid trying out a new toy...  Taim: "Wow, I am a chosen now, I can order around shadow-spawn...  Cool...  Lets see what happens if I send a huge pile at Rand..."  Without the intervention of Lews Therrins uber weaves, the attack would likely have been much more successfull.  When I first read that passage, I took it as a message about just how much resources the shadow has at their command.  They could throw away that many Trollocs and it doesn't really hurt them...

[Arkelias]

See I read it in a completely different light.  Oh look the shadow came up with yet another moronic plan that failed spectactularly just like all the rest.  I'm probably just used to series like A Song of Fire and Ice or anything by Michael Stackpole where the villians can actually craft an intelligent plan.

 

I hear alot of conjecture on these boards where people theorize as to what the shadow's motives are.  In a series with well defined villians people don't need to defend or explain the villians motivations, because they'll have solid plans the reader understands.

 

Moridin's PoV in KoD states that the Trollocs got there through the Ways.  Why they didn't become lunch for Machin Shin is another matter.  That we do not know.  Perhaps they were warded in some way.  Perhaps they were just insanely lucky.

 

Let's assume one trolloc enters the ways every three seconds.  It would take 83 hours for them all to enter the ways, much less travel anywhere.  It would take an additional 83 hours for them to exit.  RJ explicity stated that Machin Shin was drawn to large numbers.  It doesn't get any larger than 100,000 at least to date in the series.

 

This is yet another instance of Jordan breaking his own rules.  Those trollocs couldn't have been warded, because if they could ward them they would have done so when sending them to Edmond's Field.  

 

This leaves us with no explanation on how they could have survived the ways, and everything we know about them says most of those trollocs should be dead.  Its just cheesy to me that they survived, and further convinces me that RJ didn't think this part of the book through.

 

If it was indeed Taim behind the attack, as I suspect, the lack of channeler backup could have been an attempt to hide his hand in the attack.  

 

This is an interesting idea, but I'm wondering something.  How would Rand have known who was channeling Saidin?  I'm assuming if it was rogue Asha'man under Taim he would have had them remove their coats.  Rand has never been to the black tower so its not like he'd recognize them.  Even if he could its a simple matter to weave a disguise and invert it.

 

Taim seems intelligent enough to have sent at least a few channelers, and not doing so was retarded.  He orchestrated Dumai's Wells.  He knows what he's about, and that Rand has Logain and his Asha'man.  If this was his one shot and this was the best plan he could come up with he's a moron.

 

Why attack during broad daylight anyway?  Why announce your presence?  Why not come in the dead of night when everyone was fast asleep?  By the time people awoke and started defending themselves it would be too late.  It was a laughably bad plan.

 

Yes, the presences of just a few channeler would have greatly increased the effectiveness of the attack.  It also would have brought the Black Ajah and or Black Asha'men out in the open.  

 

Only if A) Rand Lived and B) There was something to prove who was channeling.

 

If someone out there started countering the weaves Rand and Co were using, what would have stopped them from simply escaping?

 

What would have stopped them from escaping anyway?  The other viable option to fighting the 100,000 trollocs was one gateway.  They could have left in seconds.  One more huge flaw in the shadow's plan unless their goal was burning down the manor Rand was staying in.

 

As the attack played out, The Shadow is really not in any worse position.

 

This is the problem the OP has.  The shadow considers 100,000 trollocs chump change.  It sort of invalidates the forces of the light and all those cool people like Lan we met along the way.  Even if you have a million troops in your army, throwing away 100,000 is still a really bad idea unless it accomplishes something momentous.

 

This means that when Lan finally rides to Tarwin's Gap with an army of borderlanders it will be totally pointless. Demandred could just pop out and smoke them all casually, backed by hundreds of thousand trollocs. 

 

When I first read that passage, I took it as a message about just how much resources the shadow has at their command.  They could throw away that many Trollocs and it doesn't really hurt them...

 

And the forsaken can never be killed since Rand stopped using balefire and the DO just recycles them.  I feel like I'm playing an MMO not reading a series of books.  The enemies just keep respawning, nothing ever dies.

[Muad Cheade]

You don't think a thousand trollocs on 50 channelers would have had the same impact?  Or even ten thousand?  My issue is that it was 100,000 trollocs.  That's just a number pulled out of his hat to seem impressive, but isn't realisitic.

 

How is it pulled out of his hat? The Blight has been pretty quite for a while, Moridin is consolidating his forces, and Trollocs take a short time to mature. So they would definitely have a lot of firepower.

 

Even if 100,000 trollocs could have moved through the ways why send so many with absolutely no backup from dreadlords?  If you are probing Rand's defenses 1,000 trollocs works just fine.  If you want to take him out then only an idiot would send them in without backup.  So, there was no reason to send so many like this.  It was stupid on the part of whoever ordered it.

 

You're wrongly assuming the Shadow was responsible for the attack. They weren't. Do you not remember Moridin being furious with the Forsaken and saying that they can no longer go their own way? Whoever sent the Trollocs wanted a quick attempt to kill Rand without risking themselves or their followers' identities.

 

Now I want you to think about the numbers.  50 channelers on 100,000 trollocs.  That's 2,000 and trollocs and about 20 fades per person.  None of these Asha'man have been trained for longer than six months except Logain and Rand.

 

Okay, but unlike Aes Sedai, Asha'man are forced to use the Power for everything even if it takes hours longer. The Aes Sedai are very much against that. That's called Forcing. Remember Suian apologized to Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne for doing that to them because while it helps the channeler grow in the Power faster, it could cause death or being burned out. That's why the Asha'man have such high mortality rates yet most grow quickly in the Power.

 

I have to go back to why.  What was the point of this assault?  If the shadow has a million trollocs they lost 10% of their army in a matter of minutes and it gained them absolutely nothing.  You don't see that as moronic?

 

Again, why weren't there any channellers at all with them?  Just a few would have turned the tide.  It's yet another example of how the shadow could be out foxed by a 5 year old with down syndrome.

 

Once again, you're erroneously believing that the Shadow was responsible for the attack. You're wrong. Someone went rogue but I already commented on this.

 

I'm not saying the size of the armies is unrealistic.  I'm saying if they were as large as we see in the later books I don't understand why they couldn't send more troops to Tarwin's Gap.  Its not a mystery that the shadow attacks through that pass every year.  All the borderlands knew it.

 

You have to realize that all of the Borderland nations have to guard the entire Blight. By the time they heard of the gathering at Tarwin's Gap, they would have no time to assemble the entire army. The same happened to Malkier.

 

All the more reason the average borderland citizen would have come to Tarwin's gap.  They know the stakes.

 

Read above.

 

An army is pointless.  If you can wipe out 100,000 trollocs and fades with 50 channelers you won't need to bring a single soldier to Tarmon Gaidon.  You can, but they are going to be there to carry your luggage not to fight.

 

An army with channelers fighting against one without channelers is at a disadvantage. It's like an army fighting against Mat and the Band when they have Aludra's Dragons against an army without them. I say this in every one of your posts, but you don't listen. An army that has channelers to balance the other army's channelers has a way better chance. That's why the Shadow was winning for most of the Trolloc Wars. THey had channelers to counter the Aes Sedai and had a superiority in army numbers. Like they will at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Moraine has been an Aes Sedai for over 20 years.  No Asha'man has existed for longer than a year, and most have only had a few months of training.  This training hasn't been refined over thousands of years either.  Its one self taught guy teaching a bunch of other people who have no clue.

 

Read what I said above about Forcing and you'll see why.

 

This is probably the thing that irks me the most about these boards.  I'm sure RJ must have said this, because I hear it on these boards all the time.  This is never mentioned in the books.

 

As the reader you shouldn't need to attend special interviews with the writer to understand that story.  RJ presented a world where the one power was staggeringly rare.  This is what is gotten across in the early books, and not once is the reader told that everybody and their brother can learn to channel.

 

This gives RJ the appearance of ret-conning his own story.  If he wanted there to be that many channelers he could have explained the 1% potential in the early books.  Since he didn't we as the reader are left with one glaring fact.

 

In the BWB, released in 1997, it is talked about the 1% of people that can channel. That was well over a decade, so I beieve you're wrong in thinking he ret-conned the story. In the books, it says a very small percentage of humans can channel. Is 1% not a very small percentage? You argue pedantically but in the end they don't matter.

 

The White Tower is incompetent.  They are too stupid to realize how many girls out there could be trained and to gather them effectively.  Nor do they realize the Windfiners, Kin or Aiel have so many women who can channel.  These are the people jerking thrones around like puppets?  Really?

 

The Sea Folk send girls to the WT every so often to keep the White Tower from searching. Also, they don't give Aes Sedai boat rides nor do the Aes Sedai go to the Sea Folk Islands, so tell me exactly how they would suspect the Sea Folk. As for the Aiel, why would any Aes Sedai (or sane human for that matter) venture into the Aiel Waste when Aiel aviod everyone except traders and gleemen and just waged war o the Westlands 20 years ago?

 

You misunderstand me.  The power level isn't the issue.  The power level compared to when the series started is.  If we were reading about the AoL and the power level was set in the first book it would be easier to accept.

 

How quickly the one power 'comes back' to Randland is hard to swallow.  In a matter of about a year the number of active channelers has increased by a factor of five.  Granted, many of these were simply groups that the reader wasn't familiar with.  It just irks me that every last group of channelers outside the WT is not only super secret, but successfully super secret and the WT never found out.

 

It seems like we're going in circles. Okay. If there are 10 million humans in the Westlands, 100,000 can channel right? Okay. Look at the men. Aes Sedai (mainly the Reds) only gentle men who have the spark. They are not gentling men who can learn. Those men are reproducing thus keeping the channeling trait active. In women, sparkers are either Aes Sedai who barely have children or die (the percentage rate of sparkers dying is 75%). Many of the learners also become Aes Sedai who don't really have children. Therefore the only female channelers are the learners who are not Aes Sedai. That is why early on they think the ability to channel is being culled. So that explains why there are dozens of men who can channel. Notice when Taim first goes to the "farm" in LoC he gives the channeling test to all of them. They are learners not sparkers. And the Rebel Aes Sedai are doing the same as the BT, they are going after every channeler possible.

 

They also said only small groups could be moved through the ways, because the larger the group the more chance Mashin Shin would show up.  Also, think of logisitcs.  Many of those bridges could only be crossed one at a time.  How long a line is 100,000 trollocs?  How long would it take them to exit through a gate?  Mashin shin would have been on them like flies on honey, and most of them would have died before they could get out.

 

Since Machin Shin was changed by Fain and had a near compulsion to hunt Rand, it's been acting weirdly. Obviously, it's not functioning as it used to as Trollocshave been going through there a lot recently. If Rober Jordan was answering, he'd say RAFO.

 

They have been replaced by greater threats, but in so doing it has trivialized many of the threats the reader saw in earlier books.  I believe that's the issue our OP is having, and I can see why.

 

In the early books characters feared all shadowspawn.  Now, other than the Gholam (there is only one we've seen), no one fears any of them.  'Oh look its a Drakar bzzzorch guess I'll just tag it with a fireball'.  There is no fear or wonder when any of these threats is seen.

 

Its the Dragon Ball Z problem.  If you constantly stretch the bounds of power in your world you eventually hit the level of ludicrous.  Plus, does anyone fear the Seanchan?  Really?  I see them as a military threat but nothing about them evokes the fear that I had as a reader in the early books when the character were being chased by trollocs and fades.

 

Didn't a Draghkar kill a Wise One in tFoH. If a Draghkaar is seen, it is pretty much dead. It's an assassin not a fighter. The Seanchan are still to be feared. They still have hundreds of thousands of troops and they just got 500+ Aiel Wise One damane. Their deadliness has just went up a lot with the latter addition.

 

The thing about fighting Trollocs is the first times you are not used to it. Tam was a blademaster yet he was nearly killed the first time he fought a Trolloc. When you first fight a Trolloc fear is high, but as you become accustomed, you begin to out-think them as they are fairl stupid and animalistic.

 

New effective weaves that they see Rand use once and all instantly master.  Instantly.  Also, many of them were on different sides of the house and shouldn't have been able to learn the weaves as you need to see one to learn it. 

 

Rand actually uses them a few times and so does Logain. It's not hard to notice when they are very large weaves done right in front of you. also, those Asha'man are among if not the strongest of their peers. Remember, Narishma's Aes Sedai says that since he Cleansing he grew rapidly and there's no telling how powerful he will be. Quite believable that the rising stars of the Asha'man will pick up weaves like that being done repeatedly in front of them. Also, aren' Death Gates basically Gateways? It'd be easy to change something you know by heart.

 

Even if they did know its 100,000 trollocs.  A hundred thousand.  So every last one of those channelers could kill 2000 trollocs and 20 fades?  I just don't buy it.  If it is true, then normal troops are quite literally pointless.  If one man with six months of training is that effective why would you do anything but go get more?

 

Those troops had no support and were mashed together with only one command: Go forward and attack. And finally, for the hundredth time, they did not have any channelers to counter Rand's. I can type that in my sleep now.

 

Your reasoning here is not wrong Ares.  However, it does provoke a certain response from the reader.  We were told one thing and believed it.  We learn later that we are completely wrong and the WT has not a clue.  That undermined the sense of wonder and intrigue RJ was building, at least for many readers.

 

As I mentioned I have less issue with the power creep than many others.  Only the 100,000 trolloc scene is an issue for me.  The rest of their advancements may feel contrived at times, but its still a good story.

Look above for my response to that.

[Arkelias]

How is it pulled out of his hat? The Blight has been pretty quite for a while, Moridin is consolidating his forces, and Trollocs take a short time to mature. So they would definitely have a lot of firepower.

 

Because of the scale we've seen before.  When have we ever seen close to 100,000 shadowspawn in the entire series?  The first time we do they are all wiped out in a matter of minutes. 

 

Perhaps I can better explain by using an analogy.  Rememeber the vast army of orcs and goblins outside mount doom in Lord of the Rings?  Imagine them getting wiped out in less than five minutes.  That's what happened here.

 

You're wrongly assuming the Shadow was responsible for the attack.

 

No, no I'm not.  Anyone who commands trollocs is part of the shadow in my opinion, excluding maybe Fain.  The forsaken may not always agree with each other, but each is a part of the shadow.  It may have pissed Moridin off, but one of his subordinates (definitely part of the shadow) orchestrated the attack.  Who else can get 100,000 trollocs through the ways?

 

Okay, but unlike Aes Sedai, Asha'man are forced to use the Power for everything even if it takes hours longer. The Aes Sedai are very much against that. That's called Forcing.

 

I'm familiar with forcing.  It increases strength with the one power, not ability to learn weaves.  Let me give you an analogy that will better explain since you have  missed my point. 

 

If I work out constantly for four hours every single day I am going to get a lot stronger.  But I am not going to know crap about using a sword no matter how much I work out. 

 

Mastering a sword, or weaves and the power, takes time.  There is a reason it takes Aes Sedai years to train novices, then years longer to take them through being accepted.

 

The Asha'man should be able to throw fireballs and do other basic combat weaves, but little else given the focus of their training.  Mastering new weaves shouldn't be any easier for them because they've been forced.

 

 

Once again, you're erroneously believing that the Shadow was responsible for the attack. You're wrong. Someone went rogue but I already commented on this.

 

How am I wrong again?  Who outside the Chosen can command that many trollocs?  Taim as a new chosen?  Regardless its someone working for the shadow.  So how am I mistaken in saying so?  Moridin may not have known, but that doesn't make it any less the shadow behind this.

 

Guess I'm not wrong after all.

 

You have to realize that all of the Borderland nations have to guard the entire Blight. By the time they heard of the gathering at Tarwin's Gap, they would have no time to assemble the entire army. The same happened to Malkier.

 

Even though it happens every year at exactly the same time?  How does that make sense?

 

An army with channelers fighting against one without channelers is at a disadvantage. It's like an army fighting against Mat and the Band when they have Aludra's Dragons against an army without them. I say this in every one of your posts, but you don't listen.

 

I am reading your posts and if you think I'm missing your point just say so.  Please don't get upset because you think I'm ignoring one of your points.  That isn't my intention.

 

An army with channelers fighting one without is at a huge disadvantage.  I'm not contesting that or even sure why you think I am.  Nor do I see the relevance to the discussion.

 

That's why the Shadow was winning for most of the Trolloc Wars. THey had channelers to counter the Aes Sedai and had a superiority in army numbers. Like they will at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Last I checked the light has far, far more channelers than the shadow.  The shadow has a few forsaken, the black ajah and whatever fragment of the BT that Taim can scavenge.  Their suicidal attack with 100,000 trollocs only confirms that.  If they have channelers why aren't they using them?

 

From what I can see so far Tarmon Gaidon is going to take about 20 minutes.  All of Rand's many thousands of channelers are going to obliterate several millon trollocs and the few shadow channelers in seconds.  Nothing we have been shown in the series suggests otherwise.  That could change in future books, but right now it is a fact.

 

Read what I said above about Forcing and you'll see why

 

My understanding of forcing is that it will more quickly get someone to their full potential, not increase that potential.

 

You seem more knowledgable about the world than I am.  How long does it take an Aes Sedai to mature in strength?  I'll bet money it takes less than 20 years even when not forced.  Moraine should have been at full strength by EotW, and you're not acknowledgin the fact that she even had an angreal.

 

In the BWB, released in 1997, it is talked about the 1% of people that can channel. That was well over a decade, so I beieve you're wrong in thinking he ret-conned the story. In the books, it says a very small percentage of humans can channel. Is 1% not a very small percentage?

 

Is the BWB one of the books in the wheel of time?  One of the novels that tells the story?  Not last I checked which means someone reading the series is not privy to that information.  I didn't say RJ ret-conned the series.  I said this gave him the appearance of doing so.  I'm sure he knew, he just didn't tell his reader.

 

One percent feels way too large to me.  If you went to the city of Caemlyn how many people would you expect to be able to channel when Rand first passes through in EotW?  If its one percent then literally hundreds of the people in the crowd watching Logain move through would have been able to channel.

 

Now that may be accurate, but my point is that nothing in the series showed us or prepared us for that fact.  When you start seeing just how many people can channel it feels rather sudden, because for the first several books we believed it was much more rare. 

 

Aes Sedai are well known, but so rare very few people have seen them.  If one in a hundred can channel then everyone is going to know someone who can do so.  That means Aes Sedai become much less rare, and the one power becomes much more commonplace in the world.

 

This doesn't mean I'm saying 1% chan't channel.  Just that I don't feel that was adequately explained in the first few books.

 

You argue pedantically but in the end they don't matter.

 

You say I argue pendantically?  For those not familiar with the word it means unimaginative.  Why do you need to result to insults?  I thought we were having a friendly discussion here.  Nor did I think my arguments were poor.

 

The Sea Folk send girls to the WT every so often to keep the White Tower from searching. Also, they don't give Aes Sedai boat rides nor do the Aes Sedai go to the Sea Folk Islands, so tell me exactly how they would suspect the Sea Folk. As for the Aiel, why would any Aes Sedai (or sane human for that matter) venture into the Aiel Waste when Aiel aviod everyone except traders and gleemen and just waged war o the Westlands 20 years ago?

 

The Seanchan have no problem finding every last girl that can channel.  The Aiel have no problem with it either.  Nor do the Windfinders.  My point isn't that the WT should have found them all, its that I'm disappointed in how incompetent it makes them look.

 

It seems like we're going in circles. Okay. If there are 10 million humans in the Westlands, 100,000 can channel right?

 

I've already addressed this.  See above.

 

Since Machin Shin was changed by Fain and had a near compulsion to hunt Rand, it's been acting weirdly. Obviously, it's not functioning as it used to as Trollocshave been going through there a lot recently. If Rober Jordan was answering, he'd say RAFO.

 

I find this cheesy.  In the early books its clear the shadow has no power over Mashin Shin and that Trollocs will only enter the ways when forced by a Myrdraal.  Nothing I read in the text suggested this had been changed.

 

Saying Fain magically changed the wind to ignore the most massive gathering of Shadowspawn ever seems ludicrous to me.  Even if MS had been changed to look for Rand, in his absence its going to kill whatever it can find.  Nothing anywhere in the books says otherwise.  Or, am I wrong there?  Please feel free to point out where.

 

Those troops had no support and were mashed together with only one command: Go forward and attack. And finally, for the hundredth time, they did not have any channelers to counter Rand's. I can type that in my sleep now.

 

I am so confused. Over and over you point out that the trollocs didn't have channelers with them.  I KNOW.  That was part of my argument.  It was retarded for them to attack without magical backup.  That's a HUGE part of my argument.  Why do you keep bringing this up?

 

Its maddening, because I have no idea what point you are trying to make.  Yes, they flooded forward with the mindless kill order.  I don't disagree with that either.  I still think it cheapens the series, because it makes trollocs pointless.

 

What am I missing Maud?  What is your point here?  Please explain instead of talking about how you've listed it over and over.  I want to have a discussion here, and I can't do that if you won't explain =(

[Arath Faringal]

The attack wasn't such a horrible idea as you make it out to be.  Whoever sent the shadowspawn didn't know that Logain was going to show up and add a couple dozen extra channelers to the mix.  Nor did they know that LTT was going to take control and unleash weaves not seen in 3000 years.  If either of those things had not happened, Rand was boned.  All he could hope for would be to escape via gateway, and even that wouldn't work with Lews Therin holding Saidin.  An option he wouldn't want to take anyway due to the large number of non channelers in the area.  Lots of people in the house and in the barns that he would have had to abandon.

 

The attack could have worked.  It should have worked.  With that many channelers defending the manor, the trollocs still made it within a few paces of the house.  Rand still was almost skewered by a fade reaching through the window.  The idea was to completely overwhelm whoever was in the house and crush them.  If the number of channelers hadn't been unexpectedly increased, things would have gotten messy for our heroes.

[Arkelias]

As you pointed out Rand could have left by Gateway, which the invading army could have done nothing about.  At best they could have killed a few of his followers, but Rand and company could have easily gotten away. 

 

Also, the attack would have had a much better chance of success had it been launched at night.  If people inside had no warning -then- they were boned.  Launching it during the day was idiotic.  Trollocs have good night vision.

 

As it was even with that many people to help my problem is I don't think they should have won against that many trollocs.  I can see a harried flight where they fight to get away, but wiping them out is never going to sit well with me simply because of the vast number involved.

 

Compare his use of callandor in the stone of tear to what he did here.  One of them involved a super powerful Sa'Angreal.  One of them was just him.  The one with just him killed far more than callandor.

 

Regardless, I stepped into this thread to back up the OP's point.  This is the breaking point in the series, as far as shadowspawn goes.  This is where they lost the last of their mystique and the fear they used to invoke in me as a reader.  Now, they are video game enemies.  All that was missing was the score flashing over Rand's head, and perhaps looting the bodies afterwards!

[Nightstrike]

Regardless, I stepped into this thread to back up the OP's point.  This is the breaking point in the series, as far as shadowspawn goes.  This is where they lost the last of their mystique and the fear they used to invoke in me as a reader.  Now, they are video game enemies.  All that was missing was the score flashing over Rand's head, and perhaps looting the bodies afterwards!

You sound very anti-WoT... Is this some kind of "reverse psychology" (or whatever it should be called) attempt to make us others like our WoT even more? Or do you genuinly feel this way?

 

Personally, I haven't lost the sense of "danger alert" that shadowspawn represents. They are dangerous, especially draghkar and the gholam. They are dangerous to all channelers, however strong. Any character could die from them, whenever their guard is down. You can't be watchful all the time, and each and every one has only one pair of eyes working at a time. With the exceptions of Uno, Mat & Rand.  :D

[Arkelias]

Those who've followed my posts will see a definitely anti-WoT bias, but only as far as the later books are concerned.  The first six are the best epic fantasty tale ever told.  I'm just bitter about the books after that, and it carries through my posts =p

 

In a way that's a good thing.  It gives all the pro-WoT people a target!

[sheikh chilli]

i agree with the OP. what so strange is that during the war of power is that armies were very valuable during those fights between the light and the shadow. sammael and belal and huge armies and they were overruning the forces of light pretty much most of the time. This inspite of better and highly more powerful male and female aes sedai present at those times.

 

Today's ashaman and aes sedai would not stand toe toe withouse famed aes sedai during the age of legends and yet they were getting beaten by the dark one's armies.

 

 

fast forward 3000 years later and pretty much a few ashaman and aes sedai completely obliterate 100,000 trollocs in few minutes.

 

imagine a circle with callandor or the coedan kal in their midst. 2 million trollocs plus all the dreadlords in the world wont make any difference.

 

yeah the one power is cheap. There needs to be limiting factor for a channeler.

[Mr Ares]

I think the problem the OP had and why he brought it up is that everyone has to have a talent or power. Couldn't she have just been strong in the power?

Well, if everyone has Talnets, then why should Avi be left out?

 

You don't think a thousand trollocs on 50 channelers would have had the same impact? Or even ten thousand? My issue is that it was 100,000 trollocs.

If it could as easily be any number, why not 100,000?

Even if 100,000 trollocs could have moved through the ways why send so many with absolutely no backup from dreadlords?

The person doing it didn't want to waste Dreadlords or didn't think they'd be necessary. It was hardly a tactically brilliant move - attempting to overwhelm through sheer weight of numbers. So someone who has already demonstrated they are not exactly the next Stonewall Jackson or Erwin Rommel making a tactical blunder of this sort isn't unreasonable.

It was stupid on the part of whoever ordered it.

Yes, it was. It was also not authorised by Moridin, nor Shai'tan as far as we know.

 

None of these Asha'man have been trained for longer than six months except Logain and Rand.

So?

 

What was the point of this assault?

Kill Rand, in the most blunt way possible.

It's yet another example of how the shadow could be out foxed by a 5 year old with down syndrome.

Doesn't follow. Not everyone is a military genius. Whoever did this clearly isn't cut out to be the Shadow's C-in-C, but look at the 13 Chosen. Many of them had skills in other areas. You might not want Aginor running your armies, but put him in a lab and he'll do fine. Moghedien isn't a scientist, but as spies go she knows what she's doing. Asmo Governed conquered territories. They all had their place. If we stuck you in charge of an army, you might get by, but in a different area you might look like you could be outwitted by "a 5 year old with Down's Syndrome".

 

An army is pointless. If you can wipe out 100,000 trollocs and fades with 50 channelers you won't need to bring a single soldier to Tarmon Gaidon. You can, but they are going to be there to carry your luggage not to fight.

And if the other guy brings channelers? If your spend all their time dealing with his, and the other guy brought soldiers while you didn't...

 

As the reader you shouldn't need to attend special interviews with the writer to understand that story.

The reader doesn't. This stuff is background, interesting but not necessary. We don't need to know it's 1%, just that poor practice by the AS has led to a hell of a lot of people slipping the net.

 

This gives RJ the appearance of ret-conning his own story.

No, it gives the impression of RJ following through on his themes.

The White Tower is incompetent.

By and large, yes.

They are too stupid to realize how many girls out there could be trained and to gather them effectively.

Or they just don't care. In a large part, they ant girls to come to the Tower, and so they make no dedicated effort to sweep the Westlands. Fewer people come to them, so that must mean fewer channelers are out there. It couldn't just be that people don't much care for the Tower.

This undermines the readers awe of Aes Sedai, which has already been eroded by seeing the women in action.

Which is precisely the point. The same with the Chosen - we first hear of them as like demi-gods, caught at the moment of creation. Later we see this is not the case, that they are merely human, oetty, selfish and weak. The same is with the AS. We see the hype, then the reality, which lags some way behind. They buy into the hype. They think that of they don't know, then the Talent must be lost, or it can't be done. Each group of channelers knows things the others don't. The AS were bought off by a few weak Sea Folk girls, and thought there couldn't be any more, or any stronger, so never looked.

These are not politically astute master planners intent on guiding the world. They are a bunch of incompetent self important fools who want to run the world.

Exactly.

 

In a matter of about a year the number of active channelers has increased by a factor of five. Granted, many of these were simply groups that the reader wasn't familiar with. It just irks me that every last group of channelers outside the WT is not only super secret, but successfully super secret and the WT never found out.

The White Tower didn't look beyond the end of its own nose. They knew the Kin were there, but just imagined that its members gave up and stopped using the Power because they couldn't be AS. Instead, the Kin are more numerous, and live longer! They had a few token Sea Folk, and didn't see any reason to look further. They expected girls to come to them, so never went looking. They found a treasure trove of channelrs in the TR when Verin and Alanna went there. So did Taim.

 

They also said only small groups could be moved through the ways, because the larger the group the more chance Mashin Shin would show up.

They also said it was unlike Machin Shin to wait at a Waygate for Rand, flee after merging with Fain, try and reach out of the Ways for Rand. We've seen changes in its behaviour. It's not hard to square its absence here with the possibility of further changes. MS wasn't there.

 

They have been replaced by greater threats, but in so doing it has trivialized many of the threats the reader saw in earlier books.

Precisely. A Trolloc is fairly easy to deal with for an experienced and strong channeler, but much harder for an untrained kid who's neither held a sword nor touched the Source. So these early threats are now lesser threats (although still dangerous to the unwary) because they know more.

 

New effective weaves that they see Rand use once and all instantly master.

Yes. We have seen channelers pick up weaves after seeing them only once.

 

If one man with six months of training is that effective why would you do anything but go get more?

Because theyare not enough.

 

We learn later that we are completely wrong and the WT has not a clue. That undermined the sense of wonder and intrigue RJ was building, at least for many readers.

Except he was also tearing down his own myths - the Chosen are shown to be so much less than the hype, as are the AS. Mutability of knowledge is shown throughout. Rumours change things. They look more impressive from a distance.

 

If most novices are too weak to become accepted than most soldiers should be too weak to become dedicated

Being a certain strength isn't a requirement for advancement for the Asha'man.

 

This is far from what we see presented at Dumai Wells or any other battle Asha'man are involved in.

Occasions in which the Asha'man are chosen, not all of them are thrown in. If you choose to only bring people who can make a Gateway large enough for a man, then that will skew appearances, as you will be accompanied by people of abnormal strength.

 

Here's how I would have done it

But you are not Taim. The attack was ill advised anyway - Rand recently used the CK. For all the attacker knows, he still has it. You could bring fifty Dreadlords with you, and Rad would still outgun them all. The assault was ill-advised, no two ways about it. But that sort of bluntness is typical of Taim. He got a big hammer and tried to smash Rand.

 

Can we get an enemy that actually makes intelligent decisions?

Like Graendal? Or Demandred? Or Aran'gar? What foolishness have we seen from her?

 

The Asha'man couldn't see Rand making the weaves

They don't need to. They see someone who has copied them from Rand ake them, someone copies from them, etc.

 

Shouldn't they have needed, I don't know, training?

No, not according to what we've seen so far. It's possible t pick things up after seeing them only once. Might take a little longer to master it, but you can pick it up with one.

 

What's the point of either the white or black towers if you can just learn something by seeing it done once?

Well, you still need to start your training. Learn how to touch the Source, every time. Learn how to use it. And trainng at the BT goes much faster than the White because of how they teach. The WT enforces learning at a crawl. Compare that with, say, the WO expecting an apprentice to see a weave once, know how to do it, and repeat it back to them. And for all these groups, they teach more than simply channeling.

 

There is a reason it takes Aes Sedai years to train novices, then years longer to take them through being accepted

Yes, they coddle them. The Aiel teach their students the Power much faster. The AS force people to learn very, very slowly. Even though they don't need to.

 

Nothing we have been shown in the series suggests otherwise.

On the contrary, nothing at all suggests it is so. The Light has been infiltrated, fr one thing. The Shadow's channelers are among them.

[Nightstrike]

They are too stupid to realize how many girls out there could be trained and to gather them effectively.

Or they just don't care. In a large part, they ant girls to come to the Tower, and so they make no dedicated effort to sweep the Westlands. Fewer people come to them, so that must mean fewer channelers are out there. It couldn't just be that people don't much care for the Tower.

I think the reason that most novices are too weak for becoming Accepted is because many of them have been neglected by AS that have encountered stronger channelers in other parts of the country/whatever. They were never recruited before. Otherwise we would see roughly 62.5 percent of the novices being strong enough for reaching Aes Sedai.

 

 

In a matter of about a year the number of active channelers has increased by a factor of five. Granted, many of these were simply groups that the reader wasn't familiar with. It just irks me that every last group of channelers outside the WT is not only super secret, but successfully super secret and the WT never found out.

The White Tower didn't look beyond the end of its own nose. They knew the Kin were there, but just imagined that its members gave up and stopped using the Power because they couldn't be AS. Instead, the Kin are more numerous, and live longer! They had a few token Sea Folk, and didn't see any reason to look further. They expected girls to come to them, so never went looking. They found a treasure trove of channelrs in the TR when Verin and Alanna went there. So did Taim.

Yes, but the small "treasure trove" was young girls. Not old women that they had missed before.

 

 

[nnokwoodeye]

Maybe Fain was behind the attack. I don't know if he could command shadow spawns like the chosen but he can scare them (and Machin Shin) into obedience.

From his point of view this attack would make perfect sense. It would kill rand and weaken the shadow.

 

[Mr Ares]

Yes, but the small "treasure trove" was young girls. Not old women that they had missed before.

Exactly. They would never have found those girls if they had never gone to the TR, and none of them would ever have gone (or very, very few). Even just looking at the younger ones they have great success.

 

Maybe Fain was behind the attack.

He can torture Fades into obedience, but I think doing so for hundreds of them is a bit much.

It would kill rand

Precisely why he wouldn't do it. He wants to kill Rand himself, and will kill anyone who gets in his way.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, but the small "treasure trove" was young girls. Not old women that they had missed before.

Exactly. They would never have found those girls if they had never gone to the TR, and none of them would ever have gone (or very, very few). Even just looking at the younger ones they have great success.

Finding young ones now doesn't tell anything of how many old ones they've missed before. The old novices, on the other hand, speaks something of how many women they've missed before.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Finding young ones now doesn't tell anything of how many old ones they've missed before.

It tells of the number they're missing right now.

[Nightstrike]

It tells of the number they're missing right now.

Maybe it tells that they've done a serious attempt at sweeping the Two Rivers area. But not much else.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

It tells of the number they're missing right now.

Maybe it tells that they've done a serious attempt at sweeping the Two Rivers area. But not much else.

 

 

 

Im with Mr Ares on this, look at the Black Towers recruiting trips and how fast it has grown because of those trips. If the White Tower did the same, the Black Tower would be small in comparison, given that the White Tower has a near-worldwide prestige that the Black Tower will never achieve in the books.

[Nightstrike]

The Black Tower accepts all channelers.

 

There are more novices than Aes Sedai. Lets say, 990 AS and 1 010 novices. 32.5 percent of all potential channelers are too weak to become Aes Sedai. 1 584 potential channelers have become 990 Aes Sedai. The reason that most novices are too weak for becoming Accepted is because many of them have been neglected by AS that have encountered stronger channelers in other parts of the country/whatever. They were never recruited before. Otherwise we would see roughly 62.5 percent of the novices being strong enough for reaching Aes Sedai.

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

There are also roughly 1 800 of the Kin.

[Alternate34]

I haven't read the books in a while and am re-reading them now, but couldn't the 100,000 Trolloc attack have been by Padan Fain?  Several reasons:

 

(1) Fain can command Fades and Trollocs.

(2) Fain can travel The Ways in relative safety as he has some strange connection with The Black Wind.

(3) None of the Shadow know who performed this attack.  Fain is not a member of the Shadow (not an official member anyway) so his command would not be noticed.

(4) Fain would not have real access to channelers so a straight up shadowspawn strike would be how he would do it.

(5) Fain can detect where Rand is and would be able to surprise him.

(6) Fain is a little off kilter and not a military genius.  He could just throw a bunch of Trollocs out and not give a damn.  He could also underestimate the forces of channelers Rand has brought.  This would conveniently skirt the problem of the Shadow being stupid.

 

I saw someone else suggest it.  As to Mr Ares point that the Trollocs would kill Rand, Fain could have tried to move in during the tumult of battle and use the Shadowspawn as fodder.  The problem of him recruiting such a large number can be explained that he doesn't have to torture EVERY Fade to obey him.  He starts small, gets a reputation, and then accumulates more and more Shadowspawn at an accelerated rate.  In TGH, a bunch of Trollocs and a Fade don't kill him even though they really should easily be able to do it.  How does he even get to torture the Fade?  His powers and their limits are very haxy and undefined.  He is learning to harness them just as new channelers are.  At some point he may be able to demand obedience with only a look and threats and quickly amass a group of Trollocs.

 

As for the power creep, I have no problem with the awe of certain groups declining.  First, it fits a general theme of the novel that the old ways are being obliterated and no one is safe.  The end of an Age is supposed to be tumultuous.  Aes Sedai have to deal with male channlers and find out more about new groups such as the Aiel, Seanchan, and Sea Folk.  The Black Ajah is forced into reality.  'angreal stores are being found.  Everything is changing.  Jordan does a good job establishing that awe to begin with.  He shatters it and puts us into the same position of the characters who are watching the world they know completely alter.

 

Second, to address the explosion of channelers, alot of the POVs come from people who are powerful channelers themselves and who associate with powerful channelers.  Rand is the most powerful male channeler.  He hangs with Logain, meets with Taim, is the target of plots of the most powerful channelers from a previous age, is the target of plots from a huge group of channelers established in Randland, is working with a bunch more channelers.  Egwene is the head of large group of channelers and is powerful herself.  Nynaeve is a powerful channeler.  Elayne is as well.  Asking about why there are so many channelers in WOT-world is like asking why are there so many world leaders at a UN conference.  Many of these people take a distinct interest in the power and are targets of the Forsaken or Black Ajah.

 

Third, the power creep is necessary to match the power the the Dark One will unleash.  I think that if channeling were kept at a low level, the idea that Rand would have a shot at the Dark One, a super powerful evil force that can change the weather, create duplicates from mirror images, etc., would be pretty silly.

[Arkelias]

Well, if everyone has Talnets, then why should Avi be left out?

 

As I said this wasn't my argument originally, so once again I'm playing devil's advocate here.  She didn't need a talent because she was a good character the way she was.  Giving her a talent comes across as only having been done because everyone else already has one. 

 

I think that was the OP's issue, but we'd need to hear from him/her to know for sure.

 

If it could as easily be any number, why not 100,000?

 

The reader will always expect the auther to top himself.  Having seen 100,000 trollocs casually destroyed we are going to expect bigger and cooler battles.  That's the first major issue.  The second is that lesser battles will now feel trivial.

 

If you tried to run another scene like Edmond's Field being attacked by 5,000 trollocs the reader is going to ask himself 'man, why don't they have a single Asha'man.  He could take out all the trollocs by himself.  I mean, they're only trollocs and everyone knows how easily they die'.

 

This divorces us from the sitauation, and makes it harder for the reader to stay interested or to be drawn into the peril that the characters are going through.  Its hard to empathize when the author has presented an easy solution to a problem, but for some reason the characters don't have access to it.

 

 

The person doing it didn't want to waste Dreadlords or didn't think they'd be necessary. It was hardly a tactically brilliant move - attempting to overwhelm through sheer weight of numbers. So someone who has already demonstrated they are not exactly the next Stonewall Jackson or Erwin Rommel making a tactical blunder of this sort isn't unreasonable.

 

If he didn't want to waste the dreadlords then he didn't expect to succeed.  My issue with this attack is that 100,000 trollocs feels to large for a simple feint.  Maybe the person who sent them expected to get lucky, but it was a bad plan.  It sounds like we both agree there.  Any of the people who would have sent them trollocs should have been able to come up with a better. 

 

You don't need to be a brilliant general to figure out that you'll have a better chance of killing someone if you attack while they are asleep.  If your the guy sending the trollocs and you can't figure that out you're an incompetent fool.

 

Doesn't follow. Not everyone is a military genius. Whoever did this clearly isn't cut out to be the Shadow's C-in-C, but look at the 13 Chosen. Many of them had skills in other areas. You might not want Aginor running your armies, but put him in a lab and he'll do fine. Moghedien isn't a scientist, but as spies go she knows what she's doing. Asmo Governed conquered territories. They all had their place. If we stuck you in charge of an army, you might get by, but in a different area you might look like you could be outwitted by "a 5 year old with Down's Syndrome".

 

This logic would work if the shadow had a good general who made good decisions.  They don't.  Can you point to a single intelligent military decision that has been made by the shadow since the beginning of the books?  Every scene I can think of involves them attempting to do something, and then failing miserably at it.

 

They have won no major battles.  They haven't beaten Rand anywhere.  They control no nations.  In short, the Shadow hasn't done anything militarily.  Sure, some of the Chosen have different skills.  But the ones who DO have the right ones should be using them, and in 11 books we haven't seen it happen once. 

 

We have not seen a single instance of dreadlords leading troops and wielding the one power in battle either.  This gives the shadow the appearance as existing as a punching bag to make the light side channelers look cool.

 

And if the other guy brings channelers? If your spend all their time dealing with his, and the other guy brought soldiers while you didn't...

 

You laugh and gun them down with Callandor or the Choden Kal, which the Shadow has no answer for.  Even if you had neither the light side channelers VASTLY outnumber the shadow side.  As I mentioned before they have a few black ajah, a few Asha'man under Taim, and a few chosen. 

 

Compare that to the light side who has the Seanchan, the rest of the Asha'man, the rest of the Aes Sedai, the Windfinders and the Wise ones.  They simply outnumber the shadow, which means they'd obliterate any amount of normal troops who show up.  Channelers will counter a like number of channelers and whichever side has more will win.

 

The reader doesn't. This stuff is background, interesting but not necessary. We don't need to know it's 1%, just that poor practice by the AS has led to a hell of a lot of people slipping the net.

 

My point is that the reader didn't have access to this information so expecting them to know it doesn't wash.  What we do know is what's in the books, and the early books gave us the impression that those who can wield the one power are far more rare than they ended up being.  That was it.

 

No, it gives the impression of RJ following through on his themes.

 

From your perspective maybe.  From mine its one more thing that started off as A and ended up as B.  This can be done, but only so many times.  Making your reader feel like an idiot by saying 'Suprise, its really like this!' for the 9th or 10th time is going to alienate a certain percentage of your readers. 

 

I know you're ok with that and even seem to like it.  Not everyone does.

 

Which is precisely the point. The same with the Chosen - we first hear of them as like demi-gods, caught at the moment of creation. Later we see this is not the case, that they are merely human, oetty, selfish and weak. The same is with the AS. We see the hype, then the reality, which lags some way behind. They buy into the hype.

 

I didn't snip anything you said about the White Tower, because we agree there.  They look incompetent in every way possible.  They are moronic in their behavior, and not capable of guiding a cart much less entire nations. 

 

What we disagree on is our conclusions.  I like the mystique RJ gave us about the Aes Sedai and the forsaken.  I did not like the reality.  The Aes Sedai are boring to read about.  If RJ's goal is to make me wish they were all dead, then he succeeded.  The Chosen are more interesting to read about, but the constant recycling feels contrived.

 

If he'd made them stronger villians we wouldn't have needed to see one killed at the end of every book.  Then, when he ran out of forsaken to kill off, maybe he wouldn't have needed to recycle them again.  In the EotW we believed the chosen were demi-gods like you said.  Revealing that as a lie would have been ok if they were at least competent.  It doesn't make sense that the shadow's champions would all be fools incapable of accomplishing anything.

 

Rand was able to unite much of the world.  He doesn't know jack about the AoL.  Why wasn't any of the forsaken able to seize control of a large swathe of the world to throw against Rand?  Sammael took Illian and sat there for many, many books.  He was touted as a brilliant tactician, we just never saw him do anything that would earn him that title.  What we did see was a few arguments between him and Graendal, and occasionally the other chosen.

 

They also said it was unlike Machin Shin to wait at a Waygate for Rand, flee after merging with Fain, try and reach out of the Ways for Rand. We've seen changes in its behaviour. It's not hard to square its absence here with the possibility of further changes. MS wasn't there.

 

This allows for the possibility that Mashin Shin might have been changed.  However, nothing in the series shows that it has.  Everything the reader has been told suggests that it will kill shadowspawn, and given the chance would wipe them all out. 

 

Unless something in the text explains why these trollocs were able to travel the ways in such numbers I feel its poorly written.  He gave us the parameters regarding the ways, and he never changed them.  Consequently this comes across as an oversight on his part.

 

If the future books explain how they were able to travel through the ways, or we see Fain or even Mashin Shin explain why it didn't kill them it would fix this error.  Otherwise it does seem to be an error, with only some thin conjecture on the part of the fans to explain why it might have been possible.

 

Precisely. A Trolloc is fairly easy to deal with for an experienced and strong channeler, but much harder for an untrained kid who's neither held a sword nor touched the Source. So these early threats are now lesser threats (although still dangerous to the unwary) because they know more.

 

The problem is that with the exception of the Gholam nothing has been added that replaces the role Trollocs filled.  I don't fear anything from the shadow.  I don't fear that our heroes are in any danger from anything it can send.  That part of the series has been lacking for a long time, which is a pity because RJ did such a masterful job of evoking fear in the reader in his early books.

 

Yes. We have seen channelers pick up weaves after seeing them only once.

 

And every last one is lauded for it, or is someone of vast experience or potential like Cadsuane.  We don't see classes of novices picking things up instantly.  We see them struggle with their lessons.

 

Because theyare not enough.

 

I do think the Asha'man are enough, if you have enough of them.  What if Rand had 10,000?  What army in the world would have a chance?  Bring on the millions of trollocs and the few dozen dreadlords the shadow seems to have.

 

 

Except he was also tearing down his own myths - the Chosen are shown to be so much less than the hype, as are the AS. Mutability of knowledge is shown throughout. Rumours change things. They look more impressive from a distance.

 

Tearing down his own myths was an interesting route to take.  One of the first things we are taught in writing is to preserve at least some mystique.  Take that away and the reader loses interest, because they must have that sense of wonder to enjoy your tale.

 

If you tear down all your myths and show what lies behind every door eventually your reader will get bored.  Seeing the Aes Sedai as mythical figures made us want to read more.  Seeing them bicker constantly made us want to read less.

 

 

Occasions in which the Asha'man are chosen, not all of them are thrown in. If you choose to only bring people who can make a Gateway large enough for a man, then that will skew appearances, as you will be accompanied by people of abnormal strength.

 

I guess that's the problem as I see it.  Every Asha'man we SEE can make gateways and blow up mountainsides.  There are supposed to be those who can't, but as they aren't present in the story it gives the appearance that every channeler can do things Moraine can only dream of.

 

 

But you are not Taim. The attack was ill advised anyway - Rand recently used the CK. For all the attacker knows, he still has it. You could bring fifty Dreadlords with you, and Rad would still outgun them all. The assault was ill-advised, no two ways about it. But that sort of bluntness is typical of Taim. He got a big hammer and tried to smash Rand.

 

Out of curiousity is there confirmation it was Taim in the next book?  I haven't read those chapters so I wasnt' sure.  Anyway, even if Taim is blunt he should still have attacked at night and still not had the trollocs give warning before the assault began.  He's led armies and should know better.

 

Like Graendal? Or Demandred? Or Aran'gar? What foolishness have we seen from her?

 

Graendal is my favorite forsaken.  Her skills don't allow her to do, well, really anything in this age except compel people.  She keeps to the shadows and avoids putting herself in harm's way.  I have no problem with her, but see her as a side character since she hasn't accomplished anything in the series.

 

Demandred hasn't done squat.  He's a great general right?  How do we know that?  Because he tells us.  Has he done anything to prove it?  Won any military victories?  Come up with any brilliant plans?  Not that I remember.

 

Arag'gar died in the EotW.  Since then 'her' new incarnation has spied on the Salidar Aes Sedai.  That's it.  That's something I would have expected an underling to do, not one of the most powerful Aes Sedai from the age of legends.  I expected her to direct a spy network, not give Egwene some headaches before running away right before she was about to be caught.

 

They don't need to. They see someone who has copied them from Rand ake them, someone copies from them, etc.

 

Assuming everyone can instantly duplicate the weaves they could have made their way through the Asha'man in a short period of time.  However, there was an army of charging trollocs and I imagine some of them would have reached the sides of the house Rand wasn't on before those Asha'man did so.

 

It's the literally instant learning I have a problem with.  That's why the one power is considered cheesy and the thrust of this thread.  Look at your other fantasy series and you'll find that power must be earned.  It cannot be simply obtained instantly at no cost, and that's exactly what happened in this scene.

 

If you're read How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy by Orson Scott Card he has a great chapter on this topic.

 

Well, you still need to start your training. Learn how to touch the Source, every time. Learn how to use it.

 

Ok, so that's the first three weeks.  Then you've mastered both.  If you can learn weaves simply by seeing them how long is it going to take you to master everything you need to know?  A couple of weeks?  See above.  Granting power that quickly is cheesy, and doesn't follow the law of conservation Scott goes on about in his book.

 

Scott is a brilliant writer and makes some excellent points on why power must be balanced.  Remove that balance and you lose your reader, because you've abandoned plausability.  More and more this was the feeling I got from the WoT as it progressed.

 

Yes, they coddle them. The Aiel teach their students the Power much faster. The AS force people to learn very, very slowly. Even though they don't need to.

 

From what I could see it still took the Aiel years to teach their novices the power.  They just seemed to start them more at the accepted level, and through them into them mix a bit sooner.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Demandred hasn't done squat.  He's a great general right?  How do we know that?  Because he tells us.  Has he done anything to prove it?  Won any military victories?  Come up with any brilliant plans?  Not that I remember.

 

Finally someone to agree with!

 

For nine books Demandred was my favorite Forsaken, the one who I anticipated most. Even his name is smart. Then finally at the Cleansing, when we see him in a situation perfect for him to do some stuff well worth the wait, he runs because he was surprised that a circle equalled him. I dont give a crap for any of the "hes a general" or "other Forsaken provide him with examples" justifications because at the end of the day I waited nine books to have one of my favorite characters dangled in front of my eyes. I had high expectations for Demandred and Im fairly sure there isnt anything he can do to redeem himself.

 

EDIT: Okay, if it turns out that Demandred is leading the Borderlander armies with thirteen Blacks and a group of Darkfriend male channelers maybe he might end up being worth waiting so long for. If he had his own channeler party like Rand does it could be good. Something like, he and his group infiltrated the Borderlander army and are sending it on a chaos mission aimed at Rand head on, using Taim as a false reason to defy Rand publicly. They instigate a fight between Basheres army and the Borderlanders, and when all this is kicking off, Rand has the Ashaman step in only to have Demandreds group explode at the center of it all.

 

Not guna happen though.

[Nightstrike]

Demandred could be behind lots of things. Probably even things that we don't know about yet. Concerning his cowardice during the Cleansing, I think that's the thing with the Forsaken. They are selfish cowards. Several Forsaken, including Demandred, joined the Shadow because they were on the losing side. The best thing the Light has going for them is probably that no shadowsworn trusts another shadowsworn. Not that all on the Light's side trusts each other, but anyway...

 

So far, my favorite Forsaken (plot-wise) are Mesaana & Lanfear/Cyndane. Moghedien has played an important part in the story as well, but not because of her great success as a Shadowsworn.

[Mr Ares]

It tells of the number they're missing right now.

Maybe it tells that they've done a serious attempt at sweeping the Two Rivers area. But not much else.

The one area they actually bother to sweep, they find a lot of people. This does, of course, not in any way shape or form imply that they might, just might, be missing a lot of girls because they don't bother to search.

 

The Black Tower accepts all channelers.

So does the White, these days. Previously, they only didn't accept people on the grounds of age.

 

I haven't read the books in a while and am re-reading them now, but couldn't the 100,000 Trolloc attack have been by Padan Fain?

No. Fain wants to kill Rand himself, and sending an army at him might mean someone else kills him. Torturing a Fade into submission is reasonable. Torturing hundreds isn't. Fain can't disguise himself as Sammael.

Fain could have tried to move in during the tumult of battle and use the Shadowspawn as fodder.

But he didn't. Rand was distracted, and Fain didn't take a shot. Surely an indication that he wasn't there.

he doesn't have to torture EVERY Fade to obey him.

He does.

 

The reader will always expect the auther to top himself.

So? The Blight should be capable of supporting millions of Trollocs. We expect bigger things, what with TG coming. And lesser battles will only feel trivial if they are seen from the pov of people who think them trivial.

 

If you tried to run another scene like Edmond's Field being attacked by 5,000 trollocs the reader is going to ask himself 'man, why don't they have a single Asha'man.

Why would they ask that? Do Asha'man miraculously appear wherever needed?

 

but for some reason the characters don't have access to it.

Why should they? If characters don't have access to these things, there's a reason. We know why Mat doesn't have any Asha'man. If he was attacked, we wouldn't be asking "Hey, why doesn't he have an Asha'man", because we know why he doesn't. Speaking of Mat, Mat's wholesale slaughter of the Seanchan army in KoD surely cheapens things more.

 

If he didn't want to waste the dreadlords then he didn't expect to succeed.

Or he thought it would succeed without them, so saw no need to have them there when they weren't needed - a waste.

My issue with this attack is that 100,000 trollocs feels to large for a simple feint.

It wasn't a feint.

Maybe the person who sent them expected to get lucky, but it was a bad plan. It sounds like we both agree there.

Yes. With Callandor or the CK, Rand could have squashed that army. Whoever sent those Trollocs couldn't know that he wouldn't use them.

 

You don't need to be a brilliant general to figure out that you'll have a better chance of killing someone if you attack while they are asleep.

If not for the new weaves, they would have been overwhelmed. That was unforeseeable. Presumably it was felt that there were enough Trollocs to get the job done, awake or not. It's not like the Shadow gives a dman about Trolloc lives.

 

This logic would work if the shadow had a good general who made good decisions.

They do.

Can you point to a single intelligent military decision that has been made by the shadow since the beginning of the books?

Sitting back and letting the Light fight itself. Very smart, as it weakens the Light to no loss to the Shadow.

 

They have won no major battles.

Because they haven't launched a major offensive. There is more to winning wars than winning battles.

They haven't beaten Rand anywhere.

Yet they are winning. If things go on as they are, they will win.

They control no nations.

Rand was just moving his forces into Arad Doman in KoD. Murandy is unknown. Some speculate Demandred is running the show there. Also, the Borderlands, potentially.

We have not seen a single instance of dreadlords leading troops and wielding the one power in battle either.

No reason why we should. The Shadow has infiltrated the Light. The Dreadlords are mixed with the AS, the Asha'man.

This gives the shadow the appearance as existing as a punching bag to make the light side channelers look cool.

No, it makes them look ignorant. They do not see the enemy within.

 

You laugh and gun them down with Callandor or the Choden Kal

And what if the guy you give Callandor or the CK to is a Darkfriend? Or what if a Darkfriend stabs the guy with Callandor? There are better ways than open confrontation.

Even if you had neither the light side channelers VASTLY outnumber the shadow side.

Which is less of an issue when they will not be drawn up on opposite sides of a big field. Their are Darkfriend and Dreadlords among the forces of the Light.

 

Compare that to the light side who has the Seanchan, the rest of the Asha'man, the rest of the Aes Sedai, the Windfinders and the Wise ones.

All infiltrated. It's not a numbers game. It's not "my hundred beats your ten", it's "ten of your hundred are really mine. But I'm not going to tell you which ones."

Channelers will counter a like number of channelers

We've seen channelers counter a greater number of channelers. It's not a numbers game. You don't win just because you have more people.

 

My point is that the reader didn't have access to this information so expecting them to know it doesn't wash.

It doesn't matter.

What we do know is what's in the books, and the early books gave us the impression that those who can wield the one power are far more rare than they ended up being. That was it.

The early books also gave us the impression that AS knew a lot more than later turned out to be the case. The information we got was wrong.

 

From your perspective maybe.

From any reasonable perspective.

This can be done, but only so many times.

It depends how it's handled. There is not set maximum number. Handle it badly and they won't accept it once. Handle it well every time and they'll still be with you after the tenth, the hundredth, the thousandth time.

 

They look incompetent in every way possible.

And they are supposed to. When initially seen, they looked impressive. The more we see, the more we realise their flaws.

 

I like the mystique RJ gave us about the Aes Sedai and the forsaken. I did not like the reality. The Aes Sedai are boring to read about.

The mystique would be boring to read about in any depth.

the constant recycling feels contrived.

Four times counts as constant? In eleven books?

 

If he'd made them stronger villians we wouldn't have needed to see one killed at the end of every book.

We don't.

Then, when he ran out of forsaken to kill off

He didn't.

maybe he wouldn't have needed to recycle them again.

That was always part of the plan.

In the EotW we believed the chosen were demi-gods like you said. Revealing that as a lie would have been ok if they were at least competent.

They seem to be doing alright. What with the winning, and all.

 

He doesn't know jack about the AoL.

He is not having to operate in it, so that doesn't matter. The Chosen are handicapped by ignorance of the Age in which they operate (and an arrogant dismissal of it, in many cases).

Why wasn't any of the forsaken able to seize control of a large swathe of the world to throw against Rand?

Illian. Tear. Seanchan. Andor. Arad Doman. The Shaido. The White Tower.

Sammael took Illian and sat there for many, many books.

So?

He was touted as a brilliant tactician, we just never saw him do anything that would earn him that title.

We saw him smash an army, single handed. We saw him join a plan to have Rand face four Chosen at once after luring him into a trap. We saw him ward both SL and Illian (he was also cited as a specialist in defensive warfare).

 

However, nothing in the series shows that it has.

We have had no reason to see it in a number of books.

Everything the reader has been told

The reader has not been told everything.

He gave us the parameters regarding the ways, and he never changed them.

He changed them in the first book - Fain survived. Then in the second - MS tries to get Rand. It waits for him, tries to leave the Ways.

Consequently this comes across as an oversight on his part.

No, it comes across as a mystery. RJ wrote a fair few of them into his books. We have not yet been given the answer. We have not yet been given the answer to Asmo, yet, and it was two books before we learnt who sent the Trollocs that saved Rand in the Stone at the start of TSR. Not a mistake. Intentional.

 

The problem is that with the exception of the Gholam nothing has been added that replaces the role Trollocs filled.

The role Trollocs filled? Cannon fodder. They still do.

We don't see classes of novices picking things up instantly.

AS force novices to learn at a crawl. Even if they did get it the first time, they would have to do it another hundred to show they could.

 

I do think the Asha'man are enough, if you have enough of them. What if Rand had 10,000?  What army in the world would have a chance? Bring on the millions of trollocs and the few dozen dreadlords the shadow seems to have.

The Shadow have hundreds of Dreadlords, infiltrated throughout the Light. If Rand had 10,000 Asha'man, some of them would be of the Shadow. What happens when one of them poisons a well? Or launches a Deathgate at the Light? Or calls down lightning among them?

 

One of the first things we are taught in writing is to preserve at least some mystique.

Mystique is only interesting from a distance. The closer you get, the duller it is.

Seeing the Aes Sedai as mythical figures made us want to read more. Seeing them bicker constantly made us want to read less.

The bickering apprently did nothing to stop the ever growing popularity of the series. In fact, the parts relating to the White Tower are the ones I am most looking froward to in the upcoming views, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. It's such a fascinating tangle. The Tower, the Rebels, the Seanchan, the BA, the hunters, Elaida.

 

Every Asha'man we SEE can make gateways and blow up mountainsides. There are supposed to be those who can't, but as they aren't present in the story it gives the appearance that every channeler can do things Moraine can only dream of.

Only to those who don't pay attention. If we are told these are exceptional, then why the problem if they are shown to be exceptional?

 

Out of curiousity is there confirmation it was Taim in the next book?

I don't know, I've not read it. And no spoilers in this section of the board anyway.

Anyway, even if Taim is blunt he should still have attacked at night and still not had the trollocs give warning before the assault began.

Why? They're only Trollocs.

Graendal is my favorite forsaken.  Her skills don't allow her to do, well, really anything in this age except compel people.

She reduced Arad Doman to chaos. She killed Asmo (probably - must keep Asha'man Kovan happy). She helped reduce Shara to chaos. She fought at the Cleansing.

 

Demandred hasn't done squat.

We don't know what he's done. We have much speculation, but we don't know. That's not the same as he has done nothing. Quite the reverse - the end of LoC indicates he has done something ("Have I not done well, Great Lord?").

Won any military victories?

In the Third Age? No. But there's more to winning wars than winning battles. It's about when you fight. Good generals can win without a battle.

 

Since then 'her' new incarnation has spied on the Salidar Aes Sedai.

And denied Egwene her Dreams, and possibly Compelled her. And killed a couple of Sisters. And Eben.

 

It's the literally instant learning I have a problem with.

But it's something that's always been there.

Look at your other fantasy series and you'll find that power must be earned.

So must the OP. It's possible to learn quickly, but it can still take time. And which other fantasy series? You surely do not claim to speak for all of them?

 

If you can learn weaves simply by seeing them how long is it going to take you to master everything you need to know?

Well, there are a lot of weaves. And some are more complex than others. A lot of people have blocks. Some will take practice, fine control. Others can be picked up very quickly.

Remove that balance and you lose your reader

RJ didn't. His readership grew.

 

From what I could see it still took the Aiel years to teach their novices the power.

They learnt many things besides the Power. The Power was not an important part of being a Wise One. They taught them it quickly.

 

Then finally at the Cleansing, when we see him in a situation perfect for him to do some stuff well worth the wait

No we don't. He's a general. He wasn't commanding an army.

[Nightstrike]

The one area they actually bother to sweep, they find a lot of people. This does, of course, not in any way shape or form imply that they might, just might, be missing a lot of girls because they don't bother to search.

Two Rivers area was far out of everybody's way. I don't know how many old channelers (more than 20 years of age or something like that) that has come from there recently? They have also gotten a lot of immigration recently.

 

The Black Tower accepts all channelers.

So does the White, these days. Previously, they only didn't accept people on the grounds of age.

Yes, I know that Egwene has changed the refusal to take in the weak. They didn't accept anyone over the age of 18 either.