The Gholam?

[yoniy0]

The way I see it, it's simple. The TP can break Cuendillar, but that doesn't mean that it's sufficient to touch a TP weave to it in order to destroy it. There is a way (which Rand used), but TP BF is still just BF. It can't touch Cuendillar. So since the bracelet isn't part of Semirhage, it wasn't destroyed. Still, if that's what Maria and Brandon decided, it's a good bet that that particular Dominion Band is Cuendillar, otherwise there's no difference I can see between it and, say, their shoes (remember, it wasn't part of a ter'angreal anymore).

[cgilbertmc]

The way I see it, it's simple. The TP can break Cuendillar, but that doesn't mean that it's sufficient to touch a TP weave to it in order to destroy it. There is a way (which Rand used), but TP BF is still just BF. It can't touch Cuendillar. So since the bracelet isn't part of Semirhage, it wasn't destroyed. Still, if that's what Maria and Brandon decided, it's a good bet that that particular Dominion Band is Cuendillar, otherwise there's no difference I can see between it and, say, their shoes (remember, it wasn't part of a ter'angreal anymore).

 

The Dominion band is not part of them because they were only holding (collectively) 2/3 of the ter'angreal. If Semi or Elza had been holding to the collar portion as well, then all bets are off and who knows what might have happened.

I think channeling TP into cuendillar weakens it (see the seals) to the point it becomes brittle and soft, like shale. Continuous contact w/DO corrupts anything, cuendillar included.

[bronnt]

Quote from: Luckers on March 09, 2010, 04:27:33 AM

A few points to clarify things for people.

 

1. The Domination Band is cuendillar. The bracelets survived the balefire that killed Semirhage and Elza.

 

 

Rand was channeling TP at them.  They weren't hit directly by the TP balefire, though.  Brandon explains that the reason the  bracelets survived was because they weren't implicitly a part of the individual persons, and wouldn't be destroyed utterly like their clothes when hit by balefire.

 

They were, in fact--much like any clothing or jewellry upon a person when they are balefired. What Brandon speaks of is why they weren't moved by the time altering affects of balefire--they simply dropped to the floor, as opposed to appearing where they should have been lacking Elza and Semirhage moving them in the moments in time that Elza and Semirhage were removed from the pattern. They weren't altered in time because they weren't implicitly a part of the individual person, and thus dropped from the position in which they were in when Rand balefired their wearers.

 

Nevertheless that they survived the balefire proves they were cuendillar.

 

For once, you've got it wrong, and I can prove it.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2645.html

 

Muirenn

1. The bruises on Min's neck were not an error. After consulting with Team Jordan, it was determined that indirect effects remain. Rand was the one who strangled Min, not Semirhage directly, so the bruises stayed.

 

2. Brandon knows of two ways to destroy cuendillar. But he would not confirm if the Domination Band that Rand was wearing was made from cuendillar. He said it was not relevant to what happened.

 

3. The bracelets did not disappear when Semirhage and Elza were balefired because they were not considered to be intrinsic to their person. It would be the same if someone was holding a book and was balefired, the book would drop to the floor.

 

Rand used the TP to kill Semirhage(and Elza).

 

Rand raised a hand and, filled with the power he did not understand, wove a single weave.  A bar of pure white light, a cleansing fire, burst from his hand and struck Semirhage in the chest.  She flashed and vanished, leaving a faint afterimage to Rand's vision.  Her bracelet dropped to the floor.

 

See above-it's unknown whether it was cuendillar or not, and it wasn't destroyed because the bracelets weren't intrinsically connected.

 

The problem with balefire discussions is that you're forced to win the same ground several different times.

[yoniy0]

That's a funny word, intrinsic. I mean, who decides what's intrinsic to Semirhage? Well, I guess BS does, but really, I can't see why you would think she feels differently towards the bracelet than she does her gown, for example. After all, she used it to cause pain. For her, it has to be the ultimate piece of jewelry.

By that logic, if I happen to get BFed wearing a pair of snickers I just borrowed to go jogging, does the shoes remain behind?

 

Nevertheless, we know the answer to the original question about the Dominion Band. The original was Cuendillar, and the copies aren't.

[Luckers]

I've sent an email to Maria Simmons about this, so maybe we can get some clarity.

 

In the short though, I find that problematic. We've never seen any oddments fall from balefire victims, not even random items like a coin, which would seem to me to be far less intrinsic than a bracelet one was focussing ones full attention upon.

 

It seems far more likely that this is a result of the Domination Band being cuendillar--original or otherwise.

 

 

[Dreamwalker]

I've sent an email to Maria Simmons about this, so maybe we can get some clarity.

 

In the short though, I find that problematic. We've never seen any oddments fall from balefire victims, not even random items like a coin, which would seem to me to be far less intrinsic than a bracelet one was focussing ones full attention upon.

 

It seems far more likely that this is a result of the Domination Band being cuendillar--original or otherwise.

 

 

 

I think that the difference between the bracelets and say, a coin in someone's pocket is that the Domination Band was connected to more than one person at the time of the balefiring. Unlike normal jewelry, the bracelets are connected somehow to each other and to the collar through the power (even though there is no physical leash between them like a regular a'dam - we know from Elayne that the physical leash is unnecessary, that they are connected in some other way as well). Each bracelet, on its own, is not a complete object - the Domination Band itself as a cohesive unit is a single object, with the bracelets and collar only being connected parts. When balefire hits something, it never takes away just one part of an object, it either takes away the entire thing, or it doesn't. Since Rand balefires Semi first, but Elza still exists wearing the other bracelet to which it is connected, Semi's bracelet is not intrinsic to her (and is not a complete object, just a part) and it therefore remains. Then when he balefires Elza next, the other bracelet is still there lying on the floor, and Elza's bracelet is connected to it, so it is also not intrinsic to her and still needs the other bracelet to be a complete object so it remains as well. It's like if you had two people handcuffed to each other and balefired one of them, the handcuffs wouldn't go away because it was connected to the other person too.

 

That's the way I've reasoned it out to myself anyway.

 

Also, thanks for sending the email Luckers, it would be interesting to see what she says.

[cgilbertmc]

I agree with the above. Additionally, I have just finished reading that chapter and the Dominion Band is metallic. This is spelled out several times both in the chapter The Last That Could Be Done and previously. Cuendillar has the feel of polished stone unless it is in the form of a ter'angreal.

Have we seen any ter'angreal made from cuendillar?

Ter'angreal have power wrought properties that strengthen and greatly affect Power directed at them. We've seen intentionally directed power directed at several ter'angreal destroy them (choeden kal access keys, the collar of the Dominion Band). These are not made of cuendillar but of common matter transformed by the Power.

TP was used to destroy the Dominion Band because it was the only power available to Rand's control. Any power could have destroyed it as well.

The bracelets were not destroyed because each bracelet was only 1/3 of a whole. If the whole (all 3 parts) had been in the balefire stream at the same time, chances are the band would have been totally destroyed. What surprised me was that the bracelets were not destroyed when the collar was.

[rubbernilly]

Right, which is why I think that this is a lapse on Sanderson's part. I just don't think he or Maria thought about the implications of jewelry or coins on a balefired person... other items that would not have been directly hit by the balefire stream, but which did not drop to the floor wherever they were x-minutes ago.

 

Maybe we'll find out different if Maria gets back to Luckers.

 

But, like I wrote above:

 

If:

The TP can destroy cuendillar (given, based on quote from Sanderson), AND

Jewelry on a balefired person is also erased from the pattern, THEN

 

Conclusion 1: If the bracelets were hit with balefire, they should have been erased, regardless of if they were cuendillar or not

Conclusion 2: If the bracelets were NOT hit with balefire, they should have been erased, regardless of if they were cuendillar or not

 

Either way, they should have been toasted out of the pattern, following how other items were toasted.

[Dreamwalker]

Right, which is why I think that this is a lapse on Sanderson's part. I just don't think he or Maria thought about the implications of jewelry or coins on a balefired person... other items that would not have been directly hit by the balefire stream, but which did not drop to the floor wherever they were x-minutes ago.

 

Maybe we'll find out different if Maria gets back to Luckers.

 

But, like I wrote above:

 

If:

The TP can destroy cuendillar (given, based on quote from Sanderson), AND

Jewelry on a balefired person is also erased from the pattern, THEN

 

Conclusion 1: If the bracelets were hit with balefire, they should have been erased, regardless of if they were cuendillar or not

Conclusion 2: If the bracelets were NOT hit with balefire, they should have been erased, regardless of if they were cuendillar or not

 

Either way, they should have been toasted out of the pattern, following how other items were toasted.

 

cgilbertmc and I just explained how this is different - a coin in your pocket or a normal bracelet on your wrist is not connected to something else that is not on your person. The Domination band bracelets, however, are connected to each other and are each only 1/3 of a whole, connected, object. If an a'dam connected a sul'dam and damane, then the sul'dam was balefired - the a'dam would not go away because the other end of it is connected to the damane. This is essentially the same thing.

[bronnt]

I've sent an email to Maria Simmons about this, so maybe we can get some clarity.

 

In the short though, I find that problematic. We've never seen any oddments fall from balefire victims, not even random items like a coin, which would seem to me to be far less intrinsic than a bracelet one was focussing ones full attention upon.

 

It seems far more likely that this is a result of the Domination Band being cuendillar--original or otherwise.

 

This is new because

 

1) The visual image of the bracelet falling was just cool, especially in contrast to the climactic moment of the book, and

 

2) There's some discontinuity with the author switch.  This isn't a huge thing, but Brandon stretched the limits a bit by arguing the bracelet=book.  RJ might have written that scene verbatim, but he didn't get a chance to edit it so he might have changed his mind eventually, and maybe Brandon played a big part in that decision.

 

Also, we know that the TP can destroy cuendillar, Luckers, and that except I quoted should have made it completely clear that Rand used the TP on Semirhage.  You shouldn't have a leg to stand on, unless you're really going out on a limb to argue that this is the New Power, or the Wonderful-Happy Awesome Creator Power, or other nonsense.

[Luckers]

I agree with the above. Additionally, I have just finished reading that chapter and the Dominion Band is metallic. This is spelled out several times both in the chapter The Last That Could Be Done and previously. Cuendillar has the feel of polished stone unless it is in the form of a ter'angreal.

 

That's not necesarily accurate--we've seen white stone cuendillar, black stone cuendillar and metal cuendillar. These merely show there are variables, but don't link the basis.

 

cgilbertmc and I just explained how this is different - a coin in your pocket or a normal bracelet on your wrist is not connected to something else that is not on your person.

 

And interesting thought, however it raises the question of why then the bracelets were not subject to the temporal effects of balefire. For instance, the doors the Darkhounds were chewing on were not included in balefire--perhaps for the reason you state--and yet they were restored in the temporal deletion that balefire results in.

 

If the bracelets were excluded simply because they were not integral, why were they not altered in time--they simply fell to the floor. The only precedent of this we have is when Jeaine Caide balefires a stand with cuendillar figures in it, and the cuendillar figures fall to the floor.

 

I could buy it not destroying the bracelets on this idea--but why were they not effected at all?

 

Also, we know that the TP can destroy cuendillar, Luckers, and that except I quoted should have made it completely clear that Rand used the TP on Semirhage.  You shouldn't have a leg to stand on, unless you're really going out on a limb to argue that this is the New Power, or the Wonderful-Happy Awesome Creator Power, or other nonsense.

 

TP can destory cuendillar--this is not a problem. It's in that the bracelets were not destroyed, or altered in time that problems raise themselves.

 

You perhaps don't realise how absurd it is to suggest that I would ever sustain the New Power/Devine Power/Idiocy-in-a-plotline Power. I still find myself somewhat offended--though, I suppose I'm always annoyed when someone tries to caste my arguments in the language of the foolish.

[Aquarius]

The topic was the golham and how to get rid of it, wasn't it ?

[Luckers]

Don't be absurd. Dragonmount posters would never go off-topic.

[Aquarius]

Don't be absurd. Dragonmount posters would never go off-topic.

Oh, yes of course, I would never presume as much. But I'm new here, and aparences can be deceptive.

[perrin51]

Yes, Rand used the TP to break free of the domination band. That being said,where does it say that he used Balefire to break free? That seems like a huge jump to me. He seemed to have used the raw power of the TP or maybe it's version of another weave to break free. He did not use Balefire to free himself of the domination band. The collar did not reverse colors and disapear, it shattered (exploded). Then once free of the collar, he balefired Semi and Elza. With the TP, it can be assumed, it was not mentioned that he switched to Saidin.

[Knobs Mahoney]

It says something about using enormous spears of air and fire, or some such gibberish when describing what Rand constructed with the TP to break the domination band.

[chuckievi]

Yes, Rand used the TP to break free of the domination band. That being said,where does it say that he used Balefire to break free? That seems like a huge jump to me. He seemed to have used the raw power of the TP or maybe it's version of another weave to break free. He did not use Balefire to free himself of the domination band. The collar did not reverse colors and disapear, it shattered (exploded). Then once free of the collar, he balefired Semi and Elza. With the TP, it can be assumed, it was not mentioned that he switched to Saidin.

 

Right but what he is saying, is if the 2 people who moved the bracelets were balefired, why didn't the bracelets either disappear due to the balefire, or get moved back to where they were pre-balefire thread burning.  I.e. he burnt their threads back a certain amount of time in the pattern, why didn't the bracelets then "warp" back to where they were at that time in the pattern, as balefire is "supposed" to behave.

[bronnt]

Yes, Rand used the TP to break free of the domination band. That being said,where does it say that he used Balefire to break free? That seems like a huge jump to me. He seemed to have used the raw power of the TP or maybe it's version of another weave to break free. He did not use Balefire to free himself of the domination band. The collar did not reverse colors and disapear, it shattered (exploded). Then once free of the collar, he balefired Semi and Elza. With the TP, it can be assumed, it was not mentioned that he switched to Saidin.

 

Right but what he is saying, is if the 2 people who moved the bracelets were balefired, why didn't the bracelets either disappear due to the balefire, or get moved back to where they were pre-balefire thread burning.  I.e. he burnt their threads back a certain amount of time in the pattern, why didn't the bracelets then "warp" back to where they were at that time in the pattern, as balefire is "supposed" to behave.

 

Well, for one, Brandon Sanderson says it was bale fire.

[rubbernilly]

Really quickly, because I only have a moment...

 

As for why the bracelets didn't warp back to their pre-balefire erasure position, it could very well be that Rand only burned Semi and Elza back a few moments. It is possible that they had been standing in that position long enough that they were (basically) in the same place when Semi and Elza disappeared.

 

However, I don't necessarily buy the fact that they were 1/3 of a larger ter'angreal as the reason that they weren't burned out by the balefire. Once Rand shattered the collar, the link was gone, too. Otherwise Rand would have still been contained by it. So the bracelets should have (IMO) become singular objects in that moment.

[mb]

The topic was the golham and how to get rid of it, wasn't it?

At times the intended topic is mentioned in the opening post and/or in later posts by the original poster.

 

And yes, people here often go off-topic; at times intentionally.  That earlier comment was probably a joke.

 

[Luckers]

He's right though--I'll split the topics when I get home so this one can go back on topic.  :)

 

In the short though, Muirenn sent me this--it clarifies some things.

 

Oi!  Lemme see if I can remember the whole context of the convo...

 

We were at the SL dinner, and I was asking Brandon if the bracelets/collar were the original or a copy.  He said that it didn't matter, and wanted to know if I was trying to figure out if they were made of cuendillar.  I said that I assumed they were, because they stayed behind when Elza & Semirhage were balefired.  He said that was a wrong assumption, and that this was actually something that was a point of contention among Team Jordan during the editing.  The consensus was that only objects that are considered an intrinsic part of the 'person' being balefired will disappear unless they are directly hit by the stream.  So, if they had been holding a book that had just been picked up, as opposed to the ter'angreal bracelets, the end result would have been the same. 

 

The discussion then continued on to ter'angreal copying, and making cuendillar.  And Brandon confirmed that the Seanchan have the ability to copy a particular ter'angreal (the a'dam) but didn't confirm if the damane or the one of the chosen copied the domination bands.  He was interested in the fan theory that saidin makes black cuendillar (which the domination bands are) and saidar makes white cuendillar (like the trinkets Egwene's group makes).  But ehe didn't confirm or deny.

 

Hope that helps!

 

-Muir

 

 

So, whatever oddness this issue seems to have been given the full weight of thought from Team Jordan, and be a direct decision that this be the case.

 

Given this I'll probably not hear back from Maria for a while if at all--she sends all requests for information about team decisions through Brandon and Harriet.

[Muirenn]

I'll also add that when I was talking to Brandon, I was trying to figure out if the Seanchan now had the ability to make cuendillar.  Which, on the whole I think to be a much bigger plot point than whether the bracelets are cuendillar.  And he wouldn't tell me. :P

[Sharaman]

I'll also add that when I was talking to Brandon, I was trying to figure out if the Seanchan now had the ability to make cuendillar.  Which, on the whole I think to be a much bigger plot point than whether the bracelets are cuendillar.  And he wouldn't tell me. :P

Surely Semirhage wouldn't have shared the technology with everyone.

Another thing, she had access to male channelers to experiment with, since she knew exactly what the Dom Band could do.

The Band was invented after the Breaking so she wouldn't have come across in the AoL.

For that matter, Moghedien seemed to know a fair amount about it.

Where and who did they work with?

Surely no Saidin-channeling Chosen would trust them that much.

Could this actually be the BUT since it first comes up in Book IV?

 

 

[Luckers]

I'll also add that when I was talking to Brandon, I was trying to figure out if the Seanchan now had the ability to make cuendillar.  Which, on the whole I think to be a much bigger plot point than whether the bracelets are cuendillar.  And he wouldn't tell me. :P

 

What a big meanie.

 

Although in favour of the idea the Seanchan identify damane strong in earth. Semirhage had the raw material there for cuendillar makers.

[algspkr]

I'll also add that when I was talking to Brandon, I was trying to figure out if the Seanchan now had the ability to make cuendillar.  Which, on the whole I think to be a much bigger plot point than whether the bracelets are cuendillar.  And he wouldn't tell me. :P

Surely Semirhage wouldn't have shared the technology with everyone.

Another thing, she had access to male channelers to experiment with, since she knew exactly what the Dom Band could do.

The Band was invented after the Breaking so she wouldn't have come across in the AoL.

For that matter, Moghedien seemed to know a fair amount about it.

Where and who did they work with?

Surely no Saidin-channeling Chosen would trust them that much.

Could this actually be the BUT since it first comes up in Book IV?

 

Moghedien read about it, not sure about Semirhage, it seems likely to me that she visited the Black Tower and borrowed up an Asha'man.