The Gholam?

[yoniy0]

Aginor does not see to be one that can only use a bit of the OP and not use it again.

 

Ishamael used the TP, completely addicted to it.

 

Rand, with his immense willpower used the TP and the ONLY THING stopping him from using the TP ever again was the Choden Kal.  The two balancing each other out.  The TP is far too addictive for anyone to stop using it. 

 

One such as Aginor would never be able to stop himself from using the TP. In the EoTW, he was using the OP.

 

Gholam created using the OP, so is Mat's medallion.  OP can create a lot of fantastic things, such as cuendillar, sa'angreal, Choden Kal... 

As for the first, a total of 29 people were given access to the TP during the War of Power. I don't think you have anything to base your claim that not one of them excluding Ishamael used it. In fact, we've seen one Forsaken (can't remember who) thinking that because it was more addictive than the OP it should only be used in emergencies, which supports the hypothesis that they do use it on occasion (well, before that privilege was limited to Moridin).

As for the second, can you honestly say you don't see the DO's mark in the trollocs? Are they the same as the Nym?

 

The Wheel of Time companion guide suggests that Aginor was a distinguished genetic scientist, and that Trollocs and Myrrdrall (unintentionally) were his creations. It doesn't suggest at all that either the One Power or True Power were used in the making of them, so I'm curious as to just how you can definitely say "All Shadowspawn were made using the TP".

Well, of course he used one of the two. Their technology was based on the OP, they couldn't have made a new species without it or the TP (which works in a similar way). As for my supposedly declaring "All Shadowspawn were made using the TP", I don't claim to have proof of that. I merely said it seemed likely, and offered supporting evidence (I won't repeat it, it's just a few posts ago).

 

Humans have the capicity for good and evil.  The human represention of this evil within ourselves is Fain. 

That they do. But the evil of SL was actually something Mordeth brought there. It was said by RJ that he searched the world for some power that will help him fight the DO, and found something ancient. We don't know what or where he found it.

You have still to explain the level of control the DO has over his Shadowspawn.

[StefanR]

^^ This

 

AND we know it's not just human evil like Mordeth that made them that way, since there exists no possible way that could be good, and the whole series has reiterated the point over and over that mankind has choices that make them lean one way or the other

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Humans have the capicity for good and evil.  The human represention of this evil within ourselves is Fain. 

That they do. But the evil of SL was actually something Mordeth brought there. It was said by RJ that he searched the world for some power that will help him fight the DO, and found something ancient. We don't know what or where he found it.

You have still to explain the level of control the DO has over his Shadowspawn.

In the Companion Book it says "Aridhol fell to something dark that was not of the Shadow"  "The evil that was born there still lives, locked in the bedrock beneath the city, hungering for wayward souls."  In The Eye of the World, Moiraine sets wards to fend off the evil of Shadar Logoth but a Fade would not notice them because it is a different type of evil.  Which basically disproves my idea about Aginor creating the Shadowspawn from the evil of human nature.  Okay how about this.

 

There are things that can be done at Shayol Ghul that cannot be done anywhere else.  One can only channel there with the Dark One's permission.  What if Aginor's creation of the shadowspawn was done at Shayol Ghul and the Dark One was able to add his special influence without the need for Aginor to use the True Power.  Which would mean that you are correct about the True Power being used in creation of the shadowspawn, but it is likely that Aginor would have used the One Power also.  I say that since the Nym were created with the One Power and Aginor being a Geneticist would have knowledge about how to blend using the One Power.

[Knobs Mahoney]

yoniyo, I should have specified that that comment was @Entreri. Didn't mean to rile you up...! :)

[StefanR]

Humans have the capicity for good and evil.  The human represention of this evil within ourselves is Fain. 

That they do. But the evil of SL was actually something Mordeth brought there. It was said by RJ that he searched the world for some power that will help him fight the DO, and found something ancient. We don't know what or where he found it.

You have still to explain the level of control the DO has over his Shadowspawn.

In the Companion Book it says "Aridhol fell to something dark that was not of the Shadow"  "The evil that was born there still lives, locked in the bedrock beneath the city, hungering for wayward souls."  In The Eye of the World, Moiraine sets wards to fend off the evil of Shadar Logoth but a Fade would not notice them because it is a different type of evil.  Which basically disproves my idea about Aginor creating the Shadowspawn from the evil of human nature.  Okay how about this.

 

There are things that can be done at Shayol Ghul that cannot be done anywhere else.  One can only channel there with the Dark One's permission.  What if Aginor's creation of the shadowspawn was done at Shayol Ghul and the Dark One was able to add his special influence without the need for Aginor to use the True Power.  Which would mean that you are correct about the True Power being used in creation of the shadowspawn, but it is likely that Aginor would have used the One Power also.  I say that since the Nym were created with the One Power and Aginor being a Geneticist would have knowledge about how to blend using the One Power.

 

I suppose it could have been done at SG. Although the same things can be done with the OP as the TP, so it would make sense to use one power for all of it.

 

As far as being addicted to the TP, it's possible that the DO cut off Aginor after he created the shadowspawn he made. Either because the DO wanted Aginor sane incase more things needed to be made, or some other reason. After all 20 something people were given permission to use it during the War of Power, and I assume ALL the forsaken who were sealed in the bore had used it more than once (the POV's we've seen regarding the TP seem to suggest it) and still regained some sort of sanity.

 

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I like the idea of the One Power and the True Power being used together.  Everything at this point is pure speculation I will agrue that not everything is possible with both powers.  For example, Ishamael cures Lews Therin of the madness with the True Power.  When he does this he says that the female Aes Sedia could only give him temporary sanity.  Is this could be a case that both Saidin and Saidar are required to cure the madness since Rand had to use both to elimanatae the taint on Saidin.  But I will speculate that not everything is similarly possible with both the True and One Power until there is a little more evidence.  I do realize that traveling and balefire are possible with both but there are things that men and women can only do and multiple things they can both do just differently.  I think that the True and One power will work the same way. 

 

I think that Aginor would have to use the One Power because the creatures used in creating the Shadowspawn are made from the Creator's work which is the One Power.  The Dark One tainted them the same way It tainted Saidin.

[Durinax]

I like the idea of the One Power and the True Power being used together.  Everything at this point is pure speculation I will agrue that not everything is possible with both powers.  For example, Ishamael cures Lews Therin of the madness with the True Power.  When he does this he says that the female Aes Sedia could only give him temporary sanity.  Is this could be a case that both Saidin and Saidar are required to cure the madness since Rand had to use both to elimanatae the taint on Saidin.  But I will speculate that not everything is similarly possible with both the True and One Power until there is a little more evidence.  I do realize that traveling and balefire are possible with both but there are things that men and women can only do and multiple things they can both do just differently.  I think that the True and One power will work the same way. 

 

I think that Aginor would have to use the One Power because the creatures used in creating the Shadowspawn are made from the Creator's work which is the One Power.  The Dark One tainted them the same way It tainted Saidin.

I believe Ishimael said "I can only give you a few lucid moments, maybe if one of your sisters where he and you didnt kill them first"

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I like the idea of the One Power and the True Power being used together.  Everything at this point is pure speculation I will agrue that not everything is possible with both powers.  For example, Ishamael cures Lews Therin of the madness with the True Power.  When he does this he says that the female Aes Sedia could only give him temporary sanity.  Is this could be a case that both Saidin and Saidar are required to cure the madness since Rand had to use both to elimanatae the taint on Saidin.  But I will speculate that not everything is similarly possible with both the True and One Power until there is a little more evidence.  I do realize that traveling and balefire are possible with both but there are things that men and women can only do and multiple things they can both do just differently.  I think that the True and One power will work the same way. 

 

I think that Aginor would have to use the One Power because the creatures used in creating the Shadowspawn are made from the Creator's work which is the One Power.  The Dark One tainted them the same way It tainted Saidin.

I believe Ishimael said "I can only give you a few lucid moments, maybe if one of your sisters where he and you didnt kill them first"

 

"A pity for you," he mused, "that one of you of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now.  But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destory her first.  What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes."  His sudden smile was cruel.  "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!"

[storywriter100]

Honestly i dont think that Aginor used the TP while making anything. I dont even think he used the OP that much. I seems that the AoL is based on something akin to our own technology in the present day, only without human greed ect. In all likelyhood Aginor only used the OP small amounts while changing the genetics of humans to make Trollocs. and if he used the TP to make any of his creatures, wouldn't he have used it to make all of them?? It hints that Worms, among other things in the Blight, are his creations as well. If he used TP to make all of these then he certainly would have the black dots over his eyes, and it said nothing about that in EotW

[StefanR]

Not necessarily. Moridin has the saa because he uses it CONSTANTLY. We don't know how much TP has to be channeled before they start to appear.

[Dida]

 

#1 - Recently I found that Robert Jordan himself suggests that the True Power was used to create the Gholam (singular, plural), which makes does make sense:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

 

Week 6 Question: How were the gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The gholam---singular and plural are the same---were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.   

 

Source: here

 

 

  Unfortunately, R.J. omit specifically how the Chosen control the Gholam. Was a type of Binder used during part of their creation? 

 

  That a 'Mark' is used in part to control a Gholam is good to know, but that does not explain how Graendal once was almost killed by a Gholam either.  If a Mark determines what a Gholam should do, how could a Gholam attack Graendal years ago (LoC, Chapter 23)?  If a Gholam was ordered to attack Graendal by another Chosen...which order should a Gholam follow? Graendal's order to the Gholam not to attack herself? Or some random Chosen, who wants Graendal dead?     

 

  What happens when a Gholam has conflicting orders? Does a Gholam gain freedom of choice if given conflicting orders?

 

 

  Do conflicting oaths given under the True Power on a Binder, operate differently if orders conflict? Relative to Oaths using Saidar on a Binder? (unsure)

 

 

 

 

#2 - Separately, both Gholam and Myrddraal notice channeling of the Power and each has an "itch" when someone channels around them.:

 

“We must take them by surprise,” Nynaeve said softly. “What kind of lock holds this door?”

 

Egwene could just see the lock on the outside of the door, an iron thing on a chain heavy enough to hold an enraged bull. “Be ready,” she said.

 

She thinned one flow of Earth to finer than a hair, hoping the Halfmen could not sense so small a channeling, and wove it into the iron chain, into the tiniest bits of it.

 

One of the Myrddraal lifted its head. Another leaned across the table toward Adden. “I itch, human. Are you sure they sleep?” Adden swallowed hard and nodded his head.

 

The third Myrddraal turned to stare at the door to the room where Egwene and the others crouched.

 

  Multiple Myrddraal noticed Egwene's tiniest use of the Saidar to weaken an iron lock in Cairhien, while a male Gholam noticed both the True Power & Saidar in Ebou Dar-- in all cases, each 'itched'.

 

 

If Myrddraal and Gholam are as closely related as seems to be the case in the series, can a Gholam betray a Forsaken as a Myrddraal was able to? 

 

((Padan Fain Mordeth was able to torture a Myrddraal into following Fain in Two Rivers area, suggesting that Myrddraal have some amount of choice, freedom))

 

   

 

  #3 - Can Gholam dream or not? Do they lack dreams as Myrddraal do? Or are Gholam different than Myrddraal in that they can Dream, like Trollocs can? Or does Lanfear not consider that any Gholam survive the Breaking, so she omits them from consideration at all?

 

“Your domain?” Ba’alzamon said. “You claim it yours, then? Do you no longer serve the Great Lord of the Dark?” The darkness around him thickened for an instant, seemed to boil.

 

“I serve,” she said quickly. “I have served the Lord of the Twilight long. Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream. Dreams were always mine, to use and walk. Now I am free again, and I will use what is mine.”

[DemandredFO]

I'd guess gholam orders have to be worded carefully because if they only made 6 because the foresaken were afraid of them, a measure of freedom must have accidently entered them

[Durinax]

The myrdraal fain tortured was not issued orders contrary to any other orders, and it was not commanded by a chosen. it was commanded by Slayer

 

Gholam's control mechanism is the fact that it is created of the TP and thus can sense when another has been effected by it (I assume that the mark the chosen bear is a certain weave of some sort that marks the chosen in a way detectable by creatures of the TP)

[Carter]

the TP can destroy cuendillar which is immune to the one power because it burns the actual pattern. No doubt a Gholam could be killed by similiar means, as it is still part of the pattern also.

[rubbernilly]

Where do we see the TP destroy cuendillar?

[Dida]

The myrdraal fain tortured was not issued orders contrary to any other orders, and it was not commanded by a chosen. it was commanded by Slayer

 

And who do you think ordered those Myrddraal into Two Rivers, in the first place?

 

A Chosen did ordered both Slayer and those Myrddraal into Two Rivers area to hunt the rebel Padan Fain Mordeth.  Those ordered to hunt & kill Padan Fain still stand too.

 

 

Likewise a Chosen set-up the prison break of Padan Fain, the Horn of Valere in Shienar back in 'The Great Hunt' book.  Padan Fain later had a dispute with a Myrddraal south of Fal Dara, in that case...that Myrddraal's decision to follow a Chosen's orders instead of Fain's orders cost that Myrddraal his life: 

 

There was a man spread-eagled across the doors with thick spikes through wrists and shoulders. More spikes had been driven into his eyes to hold his head up. Dark, dried blood made fans down his cheeks. Scuff marks on the wood behind his boots showed that he had been alive when it was done. When it began, anyway.

 

Rand’s breath caught. Not a man. Those black clothes, blacker than black, had never been worn by any human. The wind flapped an end of the cloak caught behind the body—which it did not always, he knew too well; the wind did not always touch those clothes—but there had never been any eyes in that pale, bloodless face.

 

“Myrddraal,” he breathed, and it was as if his speaking released all the others. They began to move again, and breathe.

 

Myrddraal might follow orders almost without exception from a Chosen, but they too have a choice to follow those orders.  If they were completely obedient, Fain wouldn't have been able to torture a Myrddraal into following his own orders, rather than the Shadow's orders instead. 

 

If Myrddraal were subject to a Binder rod to follow only the Shadow's Chosen or above in rank always for example, Padan Fain's method of torture should not have been possible. 

 

 

 

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There is not one scene in the series, showing the True Power destroying Cuendillar. Let alone Saidar or Saidin destroying Cuendillar.  There have been hints that something has been destroying the seven Seals holding the Dark One within the Bore though.  However, it is not clear what is behind this destruction of those Seals. Maybe the True Power?

 

Balefire did not destroy Cuendillar in Stone, when Rand held up Callandor to Ishamael's Balefire within the TAR(tDR, Chapter 55 - Rand pov). Nor did Jeaine Caide's Balefire (Saidar) with the fluted black rod destroy any of the Cuendillar items in the Museum in Tarabon (tSR, Chapter 54 - Nynaeve pov).

 

[yoniy0]

Where do we see the TP destroy cuendillar?

If the Dominion Band Semirhage used was the original, right there and then. Not so if it was a copy - they weren't made from Heartstone. Regardless, BS approved that one, I think.

 

Dida, where does the idea of a Binder being used on halfmen come from? All I've seen implies that they can only be used on channelers.

[FarShainMael]

Rand used the TP to destroy the collar that Semi put on him. Was that collar made of cuendillar?

 

(cross-posted, sorry)

 

[yoniy0]

Rand used the TP to destroy the collar that Semi put on him. Was that collar made of cuendillar?

 

(cross-posted, sorry)

I just answered that one.

[Aquarius]

Dida, where does the idea of a Binder being used on halfmen come from? All I've seen implies that they can only be used on channelers.

in the AoL, the Binder was used against criminals (I guess for something like "I vow I won't ever steal my neighbours cows").

1 - If the ability to remove oaths was known, then it would have been pretty useless against channelers, so used against everyone eles.

2 - There were probably more non-channeling criminals than channeling.

[FarShainMael]

Rand used the TP to destroy the collar that Semi put on him. Was that collar made of cuendillar?

 

(cross-posted, sorry)

I just answered that one.

 

Yep, we collided in the aether..

 

[rubbernilly]

I didn't think that even the original Domination Bands were cuendillar. One of the WOT wikis I visited said they were a "material like cuendillar." I don't know if this is a retroactive fix, since we see Rand blast the collar away with the TP and people might be concluding that because of that the collar couldn't have been cuendillar.

 

...but that would reinforce the general belief in a mechanic that the TP cannot destroy cuendillar.

 

So, does anyone have a quote that would support (at least) the original bands being cuendillar?

[rubbernilly]

Dida, where does the idea of a Binder being used on halfmen come from? All I've seen implies that they can only be used on channelers.

in the AoL, the Binder was used against criminals (I guess for something like "I vow I won't ever steal my neighbours cows").

1 - If the ability to remove oaths was known, then it would have been pretty useless against channelers, so used against everyone eles.

2 - There were probably more non-channeling criminals than channeling.

 

Wait a minute, I thought that the oath rod binder was only for channelers, and the binding chair had to be used for non-channelers. Of course they knew about the ability to remove oaths... they'd have to if they determined that the person wasn't actually guilty of what they had been made to forswear.

[StefanR]

The myrdraal fain tortured was not issued orders contrary to any other orders, and it was not commanded by a chosen. it was commanded by Slayer

 

And who do you think ordered those Myrddraal into Two Rivers, in the first place?

 

A Chosen did ordered both Slayer and those Myrddraal into Two Rivers area to hunt the rebel Padan Fain Mordeth.  Those ordered to hunt & kill Padan Fain still stand too.

 

 

Likewise a Chosen set-up the prison break of Padan Fain, the Horn of Valere in Shienar back in 'The Great Hunt' book.  Padan Fain later had a dispute with a Myrddraal south of Fal Dara, in that case...that Myrddraal's decision to follow a Chosen's orders instead of Fain's orders cost that Myrddraal his life: 

 

There was a man spread-eagled across the doors with thick spikes through wrists and shoulders. More spikes had been driven into his eyes to hold his head up. Dark, dried blood made fans down his cheeks. Scuff marks on the wood behind his boots showed that he had been alive when it was done. When it began, anyway.

 

Rand’s breath caught. Not a man. Those black clothes, blacker than black, had never been worn by any human. The wind flapped an end of the cloak caught behind the body—which it did not always, he knew too well; the wind did not always touch those clothes—but there had never been any eyes in that pale, bloodless face.

 

“Myrddraal,” he breathed, and it was as if his speaking released all the others. They began to move again, and breathe.

 

Myrddraal might follow orders almost without exception from a Chosen, but they too have a choice to follow those orders.  If they were completely obedient, Fain wouldn't have been able to torture a Myrddraal into following his own orders, rather than the Shadow's orders instead. 

 

If Myrddraal were subject to a Binder rod to follow only the Shadow's Chosen or above in rank always for example, Padan Fain's method of torture should not have been possible. 

 

 

 

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There is not one scene in the series, showing the True Power destroying Cuendillar. Let alone Saidar or Saidin destroying Cuendillar.  There have been hints that something has been destroying the seven Seals holding the Dark One within the Bore though.  However, it is not clear what is behind this destruction of those Seals. Maybe the True Power?

 

Balefire did not destroy Cuendillar in Stone, when Rand held up Callandor to Ishamael's Balefire within the TAR(tDR, Chapter 55 - Rand pov). Nor did Jeaine Caide's Balefire (Saidar) with the fluted black rod destroy any of the Cuendillar items in the Museum in Tarabon (tSR, Chapter 54 - Nynaeve pov).

 

 

It's not stated anywhere that Callandor is cuendillar

[storywriter100]

Regardless of whether the Domination Band is Cuendillar or not, if the TP could destroy Cuendillar, why didn't the Dark One do just that straight away???? Also, the Myrdraal obviously don't only follow orders of the Chosen because they were the commanders during the years when Ishmael wasn't around.