The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[Braus]

I spy with my little eye that sheihk is making Mr Ares misspell awfully alot, some emotion going on while replying?:P

No, just a failure to spellcheck before posting. That said, I can spot a couple of errors in your much briefer post - I must have really pissed you off.

 

 

Most of my posts got grammar errors im afraid, compared to yours, which usually is alot more correct grammar wise. A number of conclusions might be said about that, but yes one of them might be that im increasingly frustrated with the discussion going on in this thread. Regardless seems im alone, and ill just stopp replying to discussions like this one, too easy to stop caring and go trolling to make a lazy bigger point, instead of countering the same arguements in infinity.

[havoc110]

Can someone explain how being smothered by Mashadar equals being executed by Moridin or executed by Rand or killed for disobedience?

If Moridin hadn't saved Rand, Sammael would not have been distracted by Rand and allowed Mashadar to get him.

 

Wow, if this makes sense to you then no wonder we don't agree on much else.  I thought I was missing something.

You just may want to hold back some of those thinly veiled insults regarding other's intelligence.

 

Between this and "Rand just happened to be the executioner", it's clear that some posters here possess the sublime imagination required to believe that Dark is actually winning.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Which part are you struggling with? Sammael was focused on Rand. If he didn't know where Rand was, he would be more on his guard, and thus wouldn't have been caught. Moridin told Rand where to look for Sammael after saving him.

[Seven of Nine]

the Tower is under siege from the rebels, and the Seanchan are going to attack.

This seems to be rather fortuitous--certainly better than the Rebels still being at Salidar or en route to the WT. They will all be there together when the Seanchan attack, and a common enemy can be a unifying factor.

[havoc110]

Which part are you struggling with? Sammael was focused on Rand. If he didn't know where Rand was, he would be more on his guard, and thus wouldn't have been caught. Moridin told Rand where to look for Sammael after saving him.

 

Correlation does not imply causation.  Sammael died because he was a coward and an idiot.  (The "dumb evil" theme again).

[Tai]

Which part are you struggling with? Sammael was focused on Rand. If he didn't know where Rand was, he would be more on his guard, and thus wouldn't have been caught. Moridin told Rand where to look for Sammael after saving him.

 

Correlation does not imply causation.  Sammael died because he was a coward and an idiot.  (The "dumb evil" theme again).

No, Sammael had Rand down for the count, had Shadar Logoth warded like crazy, and was winning. "Dumb evil?" Moridin saved Rand and told him where Sammael was; I don't get how this makes Sammael an idiot..

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I disagree with your comment about Sammael being a coward. Graendal told us Sammael was trapped in a box of his own making, a box he would defend to the death rather than abandoning. Cowards don't defend, cowards run. He only fled to Shadar Logoth because he had set that up before hand. Now, he is not an idiot either, he has a brilliant mind for military affairs. He is certainly headstrong, and probably blinded by his prejudices, but not an idiot. You could say he lacks perspective and could do with a bit more common sense about everyday matters, but i think idiot is just too all encompassing and harsh a term.

 

Also, Sammael died because he heard a woman's scream, in a place where there shouldn't be any women. He looks towards the noise, and sees a huge stream of balefire flying toward it. That is certainly enough to excuse him missing a tendril of fog creeping up behind him. It isnt sammael's stupidity that is to blame for looking toward the scream either, when you are on your toes and  expecting an attack on your life you check on every noise and movement. For anyone who has ever been in a situation like that, whether in a real war or hiding from the cops at a high school party, the adrenaline is pumping and sometimes you just dont stop to think.

 

I have always looked at that particular scene and compared it to the scenario where your cell phone vibrates in your pocket and as you look at it a car swerves into your lane, causing an accident. If you hand had stayed on the steering wheel and your eyes on the road instead of reaching for your phone, you may have avoided it, but the split second decision caused the negative outcome. That is just how i see it, kind of a modern day comparison. Take it with a grain of salt.

[havoc110]

JMT: Your last analogy is apt.  It was neither Rand nor Moridin who killed Sammael.

 

But I definitely think that Sammael is a coward.  He was very uncomfortable being the target in the Axis of Evil (Graendal, Lanfear, Rahvin, himself) plot in TFoH.  I believe that he was home hiding under his bed at the end of that book rather than backing up his teammates.  (I think there is conflicting incomplete info on this in the story text).

 

Giving him a little benefit of the doubt because the Illian plan was falling apart due to Lanfear's jealous berserker rage, the Shadar Logoth plan is still a comedy (tragedy?) of errors compared with the TFoH plan.  

 

See what you think of my comparison:  Something like Wile E. Coyote putting the birdseed around a blind turn so that the Road Runner can't see the oncoming truck.  The Road Runner eats the seed and runs off merrily.  Coyote jumps into the road, scratching his head and the truck comes around the corner and smashes him.  (Insert funny image of Sammael holding up a sign that says "OH NO!" here).

 

How about the "truce" offer to Rand?  Giving the binder to Sevanna?

 

Upon further review, now I'm not sure if he was more of an idiot than coward, or more of a coward than idiot.

 

Tai and JMT: no seats on the "Dumb Evil" bandwagon for you.  I see you are both already booked on the "Sammael apologist" train to its final destination.  No problem there, although the "dumb evil" bandwagon does seem a bit underbooked at the moment.

 

Tai:  How is Evil Boss stops Evil Lieutenant from killing Our Hero, then Evil Lieutanant gets destroyed by Third-Ancient-Evil-he-should've-seen-coming not evidence for "dumb evil"?  (Maybe even more like "Keystone Cops" evil, or "Three Stooges" evil, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk).

 

Ares: the last statement does not equate with "Rand killed Sammael" or "Moridin killed Sammael".

 

 

[Tai]

Tai:  How is Evil Boss stops Evil Lieutenant from killing Our Hero, then Evil Lieutanant gets destroyed by Third-Ancient-Evil-he-should've-seen-coming not evidence for "dumb evil"?  (Maybe even more like "Keystone Cops" evil, or "Three Stooges" evil, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk)

 

Because aforementioned 'Evil Boss' has an order out to not harm Rand. Point being is that Sammael was disobeying Moridin, partly out of fear, partly out of ambition. Not dumb evil, just the Forsaken infighting as they always have. Moridin saves Rand, Sammael gets a bit jumpy, and he gets ambushed by Mashadar. It's not so simple to stay alert as you may think.

[havoc110]

 

Because aforementioned 'Evil Boss' has an order out to not harm Rand. Point being is that Sammael was disobeying Moridin, partly out of fear, partly out of ambition. Not dumb evil, just the Forsaken infighting as they always have. Moridin saves Rand, Sammael gets a bit jumpy, and he gets ambushed by Mashadar. It's not so simple to stay alert as you may think.

 

Forsaken infighting as they always have = DUMB EVIL.

[Owners.Inc]

JMT: Your last analogy is apt.  It was neither Rand nor Moridin who killed Sammael.

 

But I definitely think that Sammael is a coward.  He was very uncomfortable being the target in the Axis of Evil (Graendal, Lanfear, Rahvin, himself) plot in TFoH.  I believe that he was home hiding under his bed at the end of that book rather than backing up his teammates.  (I think there is conflicting incomplete info on this in the story text).

 

Giving him a little benefit of the doubt because the Illian plan was falling apart due to Lanfear's jealous berserker rage, the Shadar Logoth plan is still a comedy (tragedy?) of errors compared with the TFoH plan.  

 

See what you think of my comparison:  Something like Wile E. Coyote putting the birdseed around a blind turn so that the Road Runner can't see the oncoming truck.  The Road Runner eats the seed and runs off merrily.  Coyote jumps into the road, scratching his head and the truck comes around the corner and smashes him.  (Insert funny image of Sammael holding up a sign that says "OH NO!" here).

 

How about the "truce" offer to Rand?  Giving the binder to Sevanna?

 

Upon further review, now I'm not sure if he was more of an idiot than coward, or more of a coward than idiot.

 

Tai and JMT: no seats on the "Dumb Evil" bandwagon for you.  I see you are both already booked on the "Sammael apologist" train to its final destination.  No problem there, although the "dumb evil" bandwagon does seem a bit underbooked at the moment.

 

Tai:  How is Evil Boss stops Evil Lieutenant from killing Our Hero, then Evil Lieutanant gets destroyed by Third-Ancient-Evil-he-should've-seen-coming not evidence for "dumb evil"?  (Maybe even more like "Keystone Cops" evil, or "Three Stooges" evil, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk).

 

Ares: the last statement does not equate with "Rand killed Sammael" or "Moridin killed Sammael".

 

 

 

All things considered, Sammy plan was much better thought out than half the Forsaken's lame attempts. Aginor died (twice) uselessly, Arangar died the first time cos of a flaming Nym (which is so embarrassing), Lanfear got rugby tackled to doom, Rahvin got sucker punched by Nynaeve and Moggy and then Rand. Only Rahvin had an inkling of a plan of how to kill Rand, but he got caught with his pants down when Rand entered his throne room. His next resort was to run all over TAR throwing the kitchen sink at Rand but missing repeatedly.

 

Sammy on the other hand, had made the mistake of isolating himself too far from the other chosen. I'm not sure if anyone was aware of Moridin's existence in ACOS. So it wasn't out of fear of Moridin. He got unlucky cos Moridin allowed Rand to live, and effectively betrayed Sammy. I don't see how's Sammy's plan is anymore brilliant than anyone else's. It beats Aginor's loom and intimidate style.

 

Coward is someone like Moggy and Asmodean. Sammy fought Rand head on head, chose his battlefield carefully and used every advantage he had. Simple as that.

[sheikh chilli]

How dumb would he be to try and kill him

 

and yet he's a genius for trying to convert rand ONCE AGAIN, a pitiful move that ended up by ishy being rejected not once but trice!! Rand had no callandor this time. And he was in a battle with sammael. Using the true source moridin could have just balefired rand before he knew it.

 

 

instead he's back to the failed mission of conversion. Wonderful strategy by the dark one and his clown naeblis

 

The Light has a few victories, undoubtedly, but the Shadown continues to gain ground

 

indeed. the shadow is gaining ground. saidin cleansed, the dumb ass forsaken getting captured, killed and their numbers dwindling, the black ajah being hunted in the tower, halima and delana outed, the shaido destroyed, the whitecloaks under a competent person this time.....yes the shadow is winning

 

 

13 is a few. So, a few have become fewer. Oh dear. How awful.

 

'shrugs' this time there wont be any belal, sammael, rahvin, aginor kicking rand's ass just like how they did with lews therin. This time the shadow will have to make use with folks like moghy, messana, graendal and the rest of those incompetent tools. Still they have taim the poor man's forsaken lol

 

 

A big enough famine, they might not live to see the main event.

 

 

oh this rats and famine thing is seriously piss poor pitiful measures. by the time those folks you mention even starve (cant ever see it happening anyway unless the last battle is another 10 years just like war of power), the battle would be over already and the dark one walled up back again.

 

And bear in mind that the Light might not have the opinion they are currently losing.

 

indeed and why should they. they just slaughtered 100,000 trollocs in just a few minutes with a few ashaman and aes sedai. The dark one can send a million trollocs and  a whiff of callandor or the male choedan kal will kill them where they stand. easy peasy

 

[sheikh chilli]

 

 

Tai:  How is Evil Boss stops Evil Lieutenant from killing Our Hero, then Evil Lieutanant gets destroyed by Third-Ancient-Evil-he-should've-seen-coming not evidence for "dumb evil"?  (Maybe even more like "Keystone Cops" evil, or "Three Stooges" evil, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk).

 

 

:D :D :D

 

evil boss is too stupid, cluless or just blind. letting the hero live at the expense of his own general so that he can try another plot on the hero, a plot to convert him that already failed 3 times earlier under a bigger psycho called elan morin tedronai :D

 

 

[Raistlin]

I think all the dark one wants is to wear Rand down. He is the only hope. And he don't look to good right now. The more we see Rand go insane and fall apart the less chance we have. All of the DO's plans seem to be to undermine Rand. The other things in the story are just fluff. I am sure the DO cares nothing of what anyone of the forsaken claims for him unless it affects Rand and his stability. The Idea that the DO is winning is that Rand is do just what he wants and falling apart. Rand as a person is what the DO is attacking not the world. Take out the dragon and the world is his. Kill the dragon to early and the pattern will spin out another to fill his shoes. So I think if the DO's goal is to Destroy Rand mentaly and physicaly he is so winning.

[Mr Ares]

a common enemy can be a unifying factor.

Or both groups get captured.

 

Sammael died because he was a coward and an idiot.

He was neither. And bear in mind that Moridin saved Rand's life and sent him after Sammael - he clearly intended to use the one to kill the other, even if it didn't quite work out like that.

 

He was very uncomfortable being the target in the Axis of Evil (Graendal, Lanfear, Rahvin, himself) plot in TFoH.

That doesn't make him a coward. Several of their number have died going up against Rand singly, which is what this plan is trying to avoid. However, he is still alone, and has to rely on people he doesn't trust to jump in and save him. They could easily decide to wait a bit, and get there just to late to save Sammael. At the end of FoH, he was in Illian, where he was supposed to be, waiting as bait for Rand to show.

 

How about the "truce" offer to Rand?

What about it? He gets a truce, good for him. He doesn't, he loses nothing by the effort.

Giving the binder to Sevanna?

Again, what about it? No use to him, and a fair back up plan. Might not work, might do some good. Why not? He wasn't relying on it.

 

the last statement does not equate with "Rand killed Sammael" or "Moridin killed Sammael".

But Moridin planned for Rand to kill Sammael, he sent Rand to kill Sammael. Best laid plans of mice and men, but he certainly tried to use Rand as Sammael's executioner.

 

Forsaken infighting as they always have = DUMB EVIL.

Good guys infighting as they always have = DUMB GOOD. If anything, the Shadow is more unified, now that all the Chosen have been brought on side by Moridin and SH.

 

and yet he's a genius for trying to convert rand ONCE AGAIN

If the only way to win is by converting the other guy, then trying is smart. And attempts to kill him have proved to be more costly, so it appears that leave welll alone or convert are both smarter game plans.

Rand had no callandor this time.

But he's stronger, and knows more about the Power. He could have killed him if he wanted to. That he didn't indicates he didn't want to, but this doesn't equate to a stupid move just because you say it is. You haven't yet given a satisfactory reason as to why.

 

the dumb ass forsaken getting captured, killed and their numbers dwindling

If they are as dumb ass as you suggest, small loss.

the black ajah being hunted in the tower

The hunt has ground to a halt.

halima and delana outed

Yet escaping, with an indeterminate number of other BA in the Rebel camps.

the shaido destroyed

Light fighting Light. Lot of people killed who could have been at TG. And starvation across the board, millions of Trollocs, both Towers infiltrated, one ruled by a Darkfriend, the other ruled by an incompetent. The Ajahs at one another's throats, the Rebels left leaderless, with Romanda and Lelaine continuing their power struggle, and the Footdragging Five preventing any serious moves being made. Still no truce with the Seanchan, the Borderlanders still looking for Rand, the Blightborder all but unguarded, Jarid Sarand on the loose in Andor, Sylvase worming her way close to Elayne, the Ogier planning to leave. Shadoweyes everywhere, saidar powerless to keep them out. The dead walking, corridors shifting, reality breaking down.

 

'shrugs' this time there wont be any belal, sammael, rahvin, aginor kicking rand's ass just like how they did with lews therin.

Aginor made Shadowspawn, which he couldn't do in this Age anyway. Be'lal and Sammael might be gone, but they can find new generals in this Age, and they still have Demandred. Rahvin was a politician. Who could he convince on side? The Seanchan and Murandy.

This time the shadow will have to make use with folks like moghy, messana, graendal and the rest of those incompetent tools.

Yes, the Shadow will have to make do with the head of a top spy organisation, someone who corrupted thousands of schoolchildren, and now corrupts the Tower from within, one of their best generals, a gifted psychologist, the Nae'blis, and other highly successful villains.

Still they have taim the poor man's forsaken lol

This would be the Taim put in charge of recruiting the Asha'man, with 100 Darkfriend channelers around him? He seems to have done alright to me.

 

oh this rats and famine thing is seriously piss poor pitiful measures. by the time those folks you mention even starve

They are already starving.

 

they just slaughtered 100,000 trollocs in just a few minutes with a few ashaman and aes sedai.

Plenty where that came from.

The dark one can send a million trollocs and a whiff of callandor or the male choedan kal will kill them where they stand.

Or he could send one Grey Man, and its victim never sees it coming. Easy Peasy.

[BrainFireBob]

1) You assume it will be a battle, in the physical sense. No evidence for it- it's all a red herring. The DO is keeping the Light busy stampuing out fires, instead of focusing on the real goals. The Forsaken? Chumps. The DO doesn't care. It's Rand who thinks they matter, and Rand is wasting time fighting them instead of the DO.

 

2) You assume the Shadow will fight fair, if it is a physical battle.

 

To the post

 

How dumb would he be to try and kill him

 

and yet he's a genius for trying to convert rand ONCE AGAIN, a pitiful move that ended up by ishy being rejected not once but trice!! Rand had no callandor this time. And he was in a battle with sammael. Using the true source moridin could have just balefired rand before he knew it.

 

And why would the Shadow want to kill Rand? Moiraine herself noted that a ta'veren like Rand could rip the Age Lace for all tie- y'know, what the DO wants to happen.

 

instead he's back to the failed mission of conversion. Wonderful strategy by the dark one and his clown naeblis

 

If the Last Battle is the battle for Rand's soul, then yes, I'd say so.

 

The Light has a few victories, undoubtedly, but the Shadown continues to gain ground

 

indeed. the shadow is gaining ground. saidin cleansed, the dumb ass forsaken getting captured, killed and their numbers dwindling, the black ajah being hunted in the tower, halima and delana outed, the shaido destroyed, the whitecloaks under a competent person this time.....yes the shadow is winning

 

Saidin cleansed- at the cost of the female Choedan Kal, with the mass suicide of an entire culture, and the sidelining of the Sea Folk.

 

The Forsaken- who aren't even staying dead, mind- that don't really matter, but have cost Rand friends and allies, not to mention potentially severing Mat's link to the Horn, taking Rand's hand, giving him a never-healing wound in his side, and using up the Eye early.Etc.

 

The Black Ajah is hunting its own hunters- who don't know who to trust, but have been identified themselves.

 

The Whitecloaks that no-one trusts?

 

Halima and Delana outed- which creates even more distrust and inertia in the rebel camp.

The Light's victories have almost all been Pyrrhic.

 

Meanwhile, the Shadow has the Light so fractured it's even more divided against itself than the Forsaken are.

 

13 is a few. So, a few have become fewer. Oh dear. How awful.

 

'shrugs' this time there wont be any belal, sammael, rahvin, aginor kicking rand's ass just like how they did with lews therin. This time the shadow will have to make use with folks like moghy, messana, graendal and the rest of those incompetent tools. Still they have taim the poor man's forsaken lol

 

You do realize that it's not a schoolyard fistfight? It's a metaphysical battle for Creation itself, not a war over some patch of dirt. Also, LTT and the Hundred Companions did the ass-kicking.

 

A big enough famine, they might not live to see the main event.

 

 

oh this rats and famine thing is seriously piss poor pitiful measures. by the time those folks you mention even starve (cant ever see it happening anyway unless the last battle is another 10 years just like war of power), the battle would be over already and the dark one walled up back again.

 

Remember what the famine is- accelerated rot, rot so accelerated that men are liquefying into carrion-eaters as they still live. Think about it, I have time. No, really, do.

 

And bear in mind that the Light might not have the opinion they are currently losing.

 

indeed and why should they. they just slaughtered 100,000 trollocs in just a few minutes with a few ashaman and aes sedai. The dark one can send a million trollocs and  a whiff of callandor or the male choedan kal will kill them where they stand. easy peasy

 

 

That scene should have demonstrated- Shadowspawn don't matter. This will not be a fight, or a war. This will be Rand finding a way to defeat a god. The minions are to distract him, make him forget what his purpose is- and they are succeeding. They don't matter. Killing Trollocs is irrelevent, do you understand? Kill every Shadowspawn, and the Dark One is still there, breaking free. Reality is still tearing apart. The Bore is still there, alternate realities are still colliding. If the Shadowspawn kill everything, the Dark One doesn't break free- the Portal Stones showed that.

 

This. Is. Not. War. Porn.

[Seven of Nine]

a common enemy can be a unifying factor.

Or both groups get captured.

True, but at least one side knows how to travel (since Elaida has chosen not to share that information), and the group finally working together could help tremendously. Egwene knows the Seanchan are coming, so it won't be that much of a surprise attack.

 

Meanwhile, the Shadow has the Light so fractured it's even more divided against itself than the Forsaken are.

Yup. And so many people still feeling like have all the answers. This far into the game it would have looked better if there's been at least the semblance of a coalition of those fighting on the side of the light. I keep getting the feeling that many of the power brokers still don't really get it that TG is very close.

 

And many people in the general public don't either.

[Mr Ares]

The Black Ajah is hunting its own hunters- who don't know who to trust, but have been identified themselves.

Further to this, Elaida is having the ferrets watched since Beonin gave her their names. The hunters are using the ferrets, so who will Elaida see associating with the ferrets? The hunters. So Elaida is hunting the hunters, the BA is hunting the hunters, and the hunters themselves are stalled at the moment. The Light could easily end up taking down its own best hope of getting rid of the BA by accident.

 

True, but at least one side knows how to travel

And wouldn't the Seanchan love ot learn that?

[Seven of Nine]

True, but at least one side knows how to travel

And wouldn't the Seanchan love ot learn that?

And yet it's really just a matter of time.

 

Do we know if it's possible to invert a traveling weave? Probably doesn't matter, though, if Elayne concerns at the Kin's farm was relevant.

[Luckers]

Invert it? Not as far as we know. Reverse it, yes. Either way would solve the issue--unless reversed and inverted weaves leave viewable residue, which seems unlikely given the very nature of inversion and reversion.

[sheikh chilli]

you know something. i would understand some of the shadow's dumb moves if there was a purpose to it. The dark one was sealed in a prison for all eternity. If he breaks loose he wins and remakes everything into his own image.

 

Now i would understand the dark one trying to convert rand if that is the only way to break open from his prison. But i have shown repeatedly fron my posts that the dark one's prison can be broken without the need for rand's conversion.

 

During the war of power there was no attempt made to convert lews therin by the dark one. When the plan was made by LTT to seal the bore alot of people balked at the idea calling it too risky and if the sealing was not precise enough the strain would completely rip open the prison freeing the dark one completely. LTT acknolwedged the risks but said this was the only way. (look at the strike of shyol gul for reference) That shows that the prison can be broken down by physical means without the need of anyone converting. You also have to look at how lanfear drilled a hole into the bore as well.

 

 

That's why i find this whole conversion process just a load of baloney. And this is why i find the dark one and his folowers clueless and useless for letting rand live. In the end not killing him when they had th chance would prove to be his undoing.

 

 

 

[Seven of Nine]

you know something. i would understand some of the shadow's dumb moves if there was a purpose to it. The dark one was sealed in a prison for all eternity. If he breaks loose he wins and remakes everything into his own image.

That's not how I understand things. Even in those worlds (as seen by Rand & Co. when they traveled through the portals) where the dark side won and Trollics destroyed everything, the DO was still imprisoned. I don't think JUST getting free is his goal.

[BrainFireBob]

 

During the war of power there was no attempt made to convert lews therin by the dark one..

 

 

This is completely and utterly wrong. LTT survived to fight the fair as long as he did because there were numerous and multiple attempts to turn him- many spearheaded by Lanfear at Ishy's instigation. This is from glossaries and the BWB. It does, however, explain why you are having such issues.

[Shaidar]

The difference between the two sides:

 

Dark-optimists (the majority) focus on: the huge numbers of Trollocs, the Shadow's infiltration of the Light's power structures, and the growing, world-destroying power of the Dark Lord himself.

 

Light-optimists (the minority) point out that: 1) The Dark Lord is sure powerful, but we don't really know anything about him so let's mostly factor him out, 2) the Light has the vast majority of the world's channelers - there are very few Darkfriends amongst sul'dam, Aiel, or Sea Folk, and even amongst Aes Sedai it's about 50 / 700 and even the majority of Asha'man are Lightfriends, 3) Sure there are many Trollocs and they're pretty scary, but note that even a small group of channelers can utterly defeat armies of them, 4) the Light has almost all the angrel, sa'angreal (including two that can pretty much level Shayol Ghul if they chose) and the Horn of Valere.

 

RJ wants you to be a "Dark-optimist", and most people are. On the other hand there's no denying that the arguments of the "Light-optimists" are at least as logical and a valid point of view.

[Braus]

On the other hand there's no denying that the arguments of the "Light-optimists" are at least as logical and a valid point of view.

 

Except when most of the points arent logical at all and hardly valid.